Russian-Ukrainian-Polish Eternal Friendship Thread

Well there was that rash of "suicides" that occurred after the coup, as well as the embezzlement of government funds, and roving gangs of extremists groups attacking people. You simply don't hear about a lot of it; both because nobody really cares about what happens in Ukraine, and because it would make Russia look good. Although you do make a fair point; Ukraine before the coup wasn't exactly a great place to live either. I just don't think you can make the argument that they're better off now.
So, by Ukraine's standards... absolutely nothing new.
It's not imperialism to be worried about your enemy encroaching on your border, and I doubt you're going to try and argue that we're not Russia's enemy. We'd be doing the same thing if they backed a coup in Mexico, or Canada.
If Russia wasn't re-acquiring its western imperial holdings and setting up a nasty energy policy grift on Western Europe with intel investigation worthy shenanigans involving local socialist and green politicians, perhaps USA would not be so interested in stationing forces in Europe, they have enough on their plate with China.
By that same logic Russia is encroaching on Poland's, Latvia's and Romania's borders, so their allies are justified to react accordingly.
But that's the core of "fun" with Russia's made up rules around being the victim of western encroachment. It's always only Russia who has a license to be paranoid in these stories. No one else. *Especially* not the countries Russia preys upon.
Despite the fact that its only Russia grabbing territories in Eastern Europe by force, not NATO.

For all their excuse of fearing NATO tanks and missiles being too close, Russia does not lack military people who understand perfectly that USA at this moment struggles to gather the mettle to attack fucking Iran over last bloody decades, even though there is some support for it and Iran has no nukes yet. Nevermind Pakistan or North Korea.
And that's just USA, other big NATO players are even less militant.
How the fuck are western governments like that going to decide one day to start WW3 by attempting to surprise invade Russia, an opponent orders of magnitude more risky than the above 3? Its all theatrics for fun and profit. Makes idiot westerners shake in their boots, which in turn makes the local serfs feel a sliver of imperial pride and remind themselves that they need to support the Dear Leader.
They know if the west decides to actually fuck with them, its going to be economics first, and if they feel gutsy, some cloak&dagger crap, or dodgy NGOs stirring up local dissent, and for these things its irrelevant how far away NATO bases are.
AFAIK, most of Ukraine's post-2014 economic decline occurred in the Donbass due to the war there. The rest of Ukraine quickly recovered from the shock of 2014-2015.

As for voting in pro-Russian candidates, it's hard to do when Ukraine lost Crimea and most of the Donbass. With Ukraine's current de facto borders, even Yanukovych would have lost in 2010, which was a very good year for him.

Also, there is no way in Hell that Ukraine will ever actually agree to give the Donbass veto power over EU and NATO membership. That's a level of federalization that's way too high for Ukraine to ever accept. This would be like giving a US state veto power over joining an economic union and/or military alliance. Not going to happen. Better to just let the Donbass go, if necessary, permanently and for good, as painful as this might be.
Yeah, this is going to be a tough question for Ukraine (and also Russia) - the DNR/LNR region, thanks to the war and local warlord's warlord grade governance, the place has become a hot potato, with infrastructure and economics terrible even by Ukraine's general standard of everything sucking, which is quite something.
Who wants to spend big money on fixing this shit up and getting the local assholes back in line (or prison, or six feet under)?
Any volunteers? For one it doesn't seem like Russia is too eager to volunteer for that.
If Ukraine has to pay for all that, and on top of that pay some presumed price for a deal (which to add insult to injury, would probably give cover to local troublemakers), the overall calculation will absolutely make them question if its worth keeping the place.

Taking the place by force, if they can, means no political price and most of local troublemakers dying or escaping to Russia, but a price in military losses will be paid instead (questionable how big, depends how much Russia cares to aid the separatists), on top of local infrastructure getting even more destroyed in fighting.

The easiest scenario for Ukraine would be if the separatists or what's left of local population, disillusioned with years of Russia not jumping to their salvation with big aid packages, reconstruction funds etc. and merely keeping them on life support, decided that they are done with separatism and just want Ukraine to take them back. But that obviously is very unlikely.
 
It never seems to occur to people that Russia, Eastern Europe, and Ukraine is a mess because the US could not stop trying to expand our empire (NATO) eastwards and place weapons closer and closer to Moscow.

It never occurs to people that NATO has outlived its purpose, and only exists to feed Russian paranoia these days, because some Cold Warriors just saw the fall of the USSR as an opportunity to keep screwing over Russia, but with less risk now.

The Ukraine situation is a mess, but it is not a mess worth the risks involved in putting boots on the ground in the country.

Eastern Europe has reasons to be paranoid about Russia trying to absorb them, Russia has reasons to be paranoid about the west trying to place weapons closer and closer to Moscow, and nothing NATO does, short of disbanding, will reduce those fears on either side.

So the theatrics will continue on both sides, we will keep selling weapons to Ukraine, Russia will keep supporting the breakaway republics in thier civil war against Kiev, and the military suppliers on both sides will keep getting more weapon orders.
 
It never seems to occur to people that Russia, Eastern Europe, and Ukraine is a mess because the US could not stop trying to expand our empire (NATO) eastwards and place weapons closer and closer to Moscow.


It never occurs to people that NATO has outlived its purpose, and only exists to feed Russian paranoia these days, because some Cold Warriors just saw the fall of the USSR as an opportunity to keep screwing over Russia, but with less risk now.
The very actions Russia is taking now prove that NATO still has a purpose. And no, its not an empire. Its not usual for countries to volunteer to be under an empire.
The Ukraine situation is a mess, but it is not a mess worth the risks involved in putting boots on the ground in the country.
Who the hell is even talking about that.
Eastern Europe has reasons to be paranoid about Russia trying to absorb them, Russia has reasons to be paranoid about the west trying to place weapons closer and closer to Moscow, and nothing NATO does, short of disbanding, will reduce those fears on either side.
The biggest problem with NATO disbanding is that it won't make Russia's imperial ambitions go poof. Quite the opposite if anything, as they exist completely independently of existence of NATO.

So the theatrics will continue on both sides, we will keep selling weapons to Ukraine, Russia will keep supporting the breakaway republics in thier civil war against Kiev, and the military suppliers on both sides will keep getting more weapon orders.
And that's the status quo. Which isn't great for Russia, because it has a relatively shoestring budget for the supporting part. Which is why they may want to change that setup.
 
So, by Ukraine's standards... absolutely nothing new.

If Russia wasn't re-acquiring its western imperial holdings and setting up a nasty energy policy grift on Western Europe with intel investigation worthy shenanigans involving local socialist and green politicians, perhaps USA would not be so interested in stationing forces in Europe, they have enough on their plate with China.
By that same logic Russia is encroaching on Poland's, Latvia's and Romania's borders, so their allies are justified to react accordingly.
But that's the core of "fun" with Russia's made up rules around being the victim of western encroachment. It's always only Russia who has a license to be paranoid in these stories. No one else. *Especially* not the countries Russia preys upon.
Despite the fact that its only Russia grabbing territories in Eastern Europe by force, not NATO.

For all their excuse of fearing NATO tanks and missiles being too close, Russia does not lack military people who understand perfectly that USA at this moment struggles to gather the mettle to attack fucking Iran over last bloody decades, even though there is some support for it and Iran has no nukes yet. Nevermind Pakistan or North Korea.
And that's just USA, other big NATO players are even less militant.
How the fuck are western governments like that going to decide one day to start WW3 by attempting to surprise invade Russia, an opponent orders of magnitude more risky than the above 3? Its all theatrics for fun and profit. Makes idiot westerners shake in their boots, which in turn makes the local serfs feel a sliver of imperial pride and remind themselves that they need to support the Dear Leader.
They know if the west decides to actually fuck with them, its going to be economics first, and if they feel gutsy, some cloak&dagger crap, or dodgy NGOs stirring up local dissent, and for these things its irrelevant how far away NATO bases are.

Yeah, this is going to be a tough question for Ukraine (and also Russia) - the DNR/LNR region, thanks to the war and local warlord's warlord grade governance, the place has become a hot potato, with infrastructure and economics terrible even by Ukraine's general standard of everything sucking, which is quite something.
Who wants to spend big money on fixing this shit up and getting the local assholes back in line (or prison, or six feet under)?
Any volunteers? For one it doesn't seem like Russia is too eager to volunteer for that.
If Ukraine has to pay for all that, and on top of that pay some presumed price for a deal (which to add insult to injury, would probably give cover to local troublemakers), the overall calculation will absolutely make them question if its worth keeping the place.

Taking the place by force, if they can, means no political price and most of local troublemakers dying or escaping to Russia, but a price in military losses will be paid instead (questionable how big, depends how much Russia cares to aid the separatists), on top of local infrastructure getting even more destroyed in fighting.

The easiest scenario for Ukraine would be if the separatists or what's left of local population, disillusioned with years of Russia not jumping to their salvation with big aid packages, reconstruction funds etc. and merely keeping them on life support, decided that they are done with separatism and just want Ukraine to take them back. But that obviously is very unlikely.

FWIW, I really don't see Russia ever actually allowing Ukraine to solve the Donbass question by force. But Yeah, I do think that Russia should adopt a sense of noblesse oblige and thus invest in the Donbass much more. At least it actually has significant influence among the Donbass separatists.
 
FWIW, I really don't see Russia ever actually allowing Ukraine to solve the Donbass question by force. But Yeah, I do think that Russia should adopt a sense of noblesse oblige and thus invest in the Donbass much more. At least it actually has significant influence among the Donbass separatists.
I'm pretty sure Russia would want to do it, the problem is that their budget may not be able to stand so much noblesse oblige.
 
Ukraine actually tried to sign an Association Agreement with the EU even under Yanukovych but changed its mind at the last minute in late 2013 due to Russian pressure, and this is exactly what triggered Euromaidan. Pro-Western Ukrainians felt like Yanukovych was bartering their European future in exchange for some Russian money, and they became even more pissed off once Yanukovych's thugs and goons literally bloodied a lot of Ukrainian protesters in the winter of 2013-2014, culminating in Yanukovych's overthrow. Had Yanukovych wanted to deescalate the situation, he could have offered the Euromaidan protesters a free and fair referendum on this question early enough. He could have also avoided acting like an authoritarian thug during his presidency.

The problem is that Russia itself didn't have much appeal for Ukraine and thus had to resort to economic coercion to try getting Ukraine to pull away from Europe, and even that was ultimately unsuccessful in the end.

The idea Russia didn't have much appeal when large segments of the country have either joined Russia or are currently fighting as Pro-Russian separatists, and when Russia was Ukraine's second largest trading partner in 2013, rings hollow. The European Union–Ukraine Association Agreement was never put to a vote by the current or previous Government, and the last one was overthrown not by the ballot box but by violent revolution.

Would you have also been against NATO's post-1995 wave of expansion? Because in 1900, someone would have said that Poland is just as much a part of Russia's sphere of influence as Russia currently claims Ukraine is.

As a side note, had Germany won World War I, Russia would not have been in a position to try attacking Ukraine because in such a scenario, Germany WOULD HAVE CERTAINLY militarily responded to such a Russian move.

Yes, I'm opposed to the NATO expansion, both because it soured relations with Russia and the influence the West has brought into Eastern Europe has been a disaster for the people there.

So, would Russia have been justified in invading the Baltic countries over their NATO aspirations in the early 2000s?

I would say yes. The reason they didn't is probably because the U.S. still had political capital at that time and also given the relative balance of power; the U.S. was still near its apex and Russia near its nadir.
 
The idea Russia didn't have much appeal when large segments of the country have either joined Russia or are currently fighting as Pro-Russian separatists, and when Russia was Ukraine's second largest trading partner in 2013, rings hollow. The European Union–Ukraine Association Agreement was never put to a vote by the current or previous Government, and the last one was overthrown not by the ballot box but by violent revolution.

Sure, the best move for Yanukovych would have been to have the Ukrainians vote on whether they preferred EU integration or Russian integration, and to do it before anyone, let alone a lot of people, actually got hurt or killed on the Maidan. The beating of protesters by Yanukovych's thugs ("titushki") significantly radicalized them.

FWIW, polling showed that EU integration had a narrow lead among Ukrainians in late 2013, though the younger generations were more pro-EU and anti-Eurasia than the older generations were:


You can use Google Translate to understand the link above, but the gist is that 40.5% of Ukrainians would have voted for EU integration while 35% of Ukrainians would have voted for Eurasian integration. The rest were undecided or not going to vote at all.

Yes, I'm opposed to the NATO expansion, both because it soured relations with Russia and the influence the West has brought into Eastern Europe has been a disaster for the people there.

How exactly has Western influence been a disaster for Eastern Europeans? Making them more LGBTQ+ friendly is a good thing and Eastern Europe is still considerably hostile to things such as Wokeness. They're also not willing to accept a lot of Muslim immigrants like Western Europe previously did.

I would say yes. The reason they didn't is probably because the U.S. still had political capital at that time and also given the relative balance of power; the U.S. was still near its apex and Russia near its nadir.

Yeah, that makes sense. Another possible reason might have been that Russia still hoped to lure Ukraine back into its orbit by peaceful means back in 2004 and a Russian invasion of the Baltic countries could have made this considerably more complicated since it could have given Ukrainians the impression that Russia is an aggressive state, similar to what the events of 2014 and beyond did in real life. Ukrainians might have been less likely to pursue integration with an aggressive state, even a "brotherly" one.
 
I'm pretty sure Russia would want to do it, the problem is that their budget may not be able to stand so much noblesse oblige.

You know, I wonder if the Donbass could actually become a Russian version of what eastern Upper Silesia was to Poland in the interwar era if the Donbass actually got enough Russian investment for a sufficiently long time period.
 
Sure, the best move for Yanukovych would have been to have the Ukrainians vote on whether they preferred EU integration or Russian integration, and to do it before anyone, let alone a lot of people, actually got hurt or killed on the Maidan. The beating of protesters by Yanukovych's thugs ("titushki") significantly radicalized them.

FWIW, polling showed that EU integration had a narrow lead among Ukrainians in late 2013, though the younger generations were more pro-EU and anti-Eurasia than the older generations were:


You can use Google Translate to understand the link above, but the gist is that 40.5% of Ukrainians would have voted for EU integration while 35% of Ukrainians would have voted for Eurasian integration. The rest were undecided or not going to vote at all.

So 40% of Ukrainians overthrew the Government and forced a status change on the majority, which either opposed it or were unsure?

How exactly has Western influence been a disaster for Eastern Europeans? Making them more LGBTQ+ friendly is a good thing and Eastern Europe is still considerably hostile to things such as Wokeness. They're also not willing to accept a lot of Muslim immigrants like Western Europe previously did.

All of that is being eroded by the Western Governments doing exactly what Russia did; financial levers.
 
So 40% of Ukrainians overthrew the Government and forced a status change on the majority, which either opposed it or were unsure?

Yes. I seem to recall seeing a poll on Anatoly Karlin's blog several years ago that showed something like 40% of Ukrainians being pro-Maidan, 25% being pro-Yanukovych, and the rest being ambivalent or something like that. So, there were much more Ukrainians being pro-Maidan than pro-Yanukovych, but IIRC they were NOT a majority.

That said, though, if Russia felt uncertain about its position, it could have simply waited until the next Ukrainian elections in mid-2014. Pro-Russian candidates were allowed to participate in this election, though Yanukovych himself was not.

BTW, I also saw polling from either late 2013 ro early 2014, again on Anatoly Karlin's blog, that showed Yanukovych losing the second round of a future Ukrainian Presidential election to any pro-Western candidates, often decisively.


That's over rule-of-law violations, which is a bit different, no?
 
Which has precisely jack shit to do with NATO (Sweden? Finland?) membership of all things, there is a reason why in this specific case its EU. Go ask Erdogan.
You know, I wonder if the Donbass could actually become a Russian version of what eastern Upper Silesia was to Poland in the interwar era if the Donbass actually got enough Russian investment for a sufficiently long time period.
It used to be, but in both cases, the economic transformation was not too kind for the local industry.
 
Go read up on Operation Gladio, then get back to me.
Nothing new to me, and completely irrelevant to the topic. What does supporting anticommunist stay behind forces in Cold War with the obvious support of countries they are being left in have to do with spread of cultural marxism now? I'm sure countries like Turkey, Poland and Bulgaria would be totally fine with leaving caches of arms for local antifa (or in case of the former, PKK) thugs, totally.
Or what are you trying to imply here?
 
Nothing new to me, and completely irrelevant to the topic. What does supporting anticommunist stay behind forces in Cold War with the obvious support of countries they are being left in have to do with spread of cultural marxism now? I'm sure countries like Turkey, Poland and Bulgaria would be totally fine with leaving caches of arms for local antifa (or in case of the former, PKK) thugs, totally.
Or what are you trying to imply here?

The idea it's only the EU and not the wider apparatus of Western influence in the region; the idea NATO is solely on the international level of defense and not fucking around in the internal politics of a nation. I've also not overlooked the fact you conveniently left out Italy, given the impacts GLADIO had in the Years of Lead.
 
The idea it's only the EU and not the wider apparatus of Western influence in the region; the idea NATO is solely on the international level of defense and not fucking around in the internal politics of a nation. I've also not overlooked the fact you conveniently left out Italy, given the impacts GLADIO had in the Years of Lead.
My point is that out of all the "western influence" sources, and in particular the damaging left wing cultural kind, NATO cannot aspire to even a top 100.
The worst culprits tend to be organizations quite clear about their political interests, many of them acting as private/charitable/business entities that cry foul if obstructed or limited in their activities in any way, rather than organizations a country can opt to join or not with no hard feelings. Hence countries like New Zealand or Sweden are among those hit the worst, despite the former being neither in NATO nor EU, and the latter not in NATO.
Also funny how the example you give was NATO supporting anti-communist forces.
 
My point is that out of all the "western influence" sources, and in particular the damaging left wing cultural kind, NATO cannot aspire to even a top 100.
The worst culprits tend to be organizations quite clear about their political interests, many of them acting as private/charitable/business entities that cry foul if obstructed or limited in their activies in any way, rather than organizations a country can opt to join or not with no hard feelings. Hence countries like New Zealand or Sweden are among those hit the worst, despite the former being neither in NATO nor EU, and the latter not in NATO.

Largely because they are all tied in, you're trying to pretend its not all inter-connected when it quite obviously is. Hell, even Western Think Tanks openly admitted this:

Marija Golubeva, a recently elected member of the Saeima, the Latvian Parliament, told me it is often “not religious feelings, but the heritage of Soviet ideology” that determines the extent to which a nation respects LGBTQ equality. Countries that overcome their totalitarian pasts—as the Baltic states have admirably done, shedding their command economies and authoritarian political structures for membership in NATO and the European Union—will progress toward recognizing the basic dignity of their gay and lesbian citizens.​
“The share of people who say that religion is very important in their lives is higher in Spain and Norway than in Lithuania and Latvia, or even in Russia,” Golubeva said. “Yet it is in Spain and not in Russia that people of the same sex can marry.” Golubeva is just the second openly gay politician in Latvia, following the country’s foreign minister, who came out in 2014 and is still serving.​
Keenly aware of the anxieties many socially conservative people in the former Soviet space harbor about homosexuality, the Kremlin exploits the issue for geopolitical aims. On Sunday, thousands marched for LGBTQ rights in Ukraine, a country that has paid a hard price for its Western aspirations in the form of Russian occupation forces on its sovereign territory. As part of its propaganda narrative, Moscow paints pro-West Ukrainians as wishing to subsume the country under “Gayropa.”​
Now consider Georgia: Like the Baltics, it is a former Soviet republic, but luckless geography places it outside the civilizational umbrella provided by NATO and the E.U. The spirit of the Stonewall uprising in New York, which occurred 50 years ago this week, lives on the streets of Tbilisi: On June 14, gay-rights activists demonstrated outside the main government building to demand police protection for an upcoming Pride march. They were attacked by far-right activists as police passively looked on.​
In my study tour group’s meetings with Baltic officials, the question repeatedly came up of why the United States should risk blood and treasure in the defense of tiny countries along Russia’s border. Former House speaker Newt Gingrich, then acting as a campaign surrogate for Donald Trump, gave voice to this sentiment during the 2016 presidential election when he said that Estonia was just some place in “the suburbs of St. Petersburg.”​
For an answer to that “why” question, I will defer to Natan Sharansky, the dissident whose quest to free his fellow Jews from Soviet captivity helped bring about the evil empire’s collapse.​
Years ago, Sharansky came up with a “town square test” to distinguish the free society from what he termed a “fear society.” Can a person walk into the town square and express his opinion without fear of being arrested or harmed? “The understanding of linkage between democracy and peace was always very seldom understood,” Sharansky told me last month. “And that’s why it is our highest interest that our neighbors have democratic rule and not dictators.”​
One suspects that if Russia were a place where Pride parades were allowed, its quarrels with the United States, and ours with it, would diminish.​
 
Largely because they are all tied in, you're trying to pretend its not all inter-connected when it quite obviously is. Hell, even Western Think Tanks openly admitted this:

Marija Golubeva, a recently elected member of the Saeima, the Latvian Parliament, told me it is often “not religious feelings, but the heritage of Soviet ideology” that determines the extent to which a nation respects LGBTQ equality. Countries that overcome their totalitarian pasts—as the Baltic states have admirably done, shedding their command economies and authoritarian political structures for membership in NATO and the European Union—will progress toward recognizing the basic dignity of their gay and lesbian citizens.​
“The share of people who say that religion is very important in their lives is higher in Spain and Norway than in Lithuania and Latvia, or even in Russia,” Golubeva said. “Yet it is in Spain and not in Russia that people of the same sex can marry.” Golubeva is just the second openly gay politician in Latvia, following the country’s foreign minister, who came out in 2014 and is still serving.​
Keenly aware of the anxieties many socially conservative people in the former Soviet space harbor about homosexuality, the Kremlin exploits the issue for geopolitical aims. On Sunday, thousands marched for LGBTQ rights in Ukraine, a country that has paid a hard price for its Western aspirations in the form of Russian occupation forces on its sovereign territory. As part of its propaganda narrative, Moscow paints pro-West Ukrainians as wishing to subsume the country under “Gayropa.”​
Now consider Georgia: Like the Baltics, it is a former Soviet republic, but luckless geography places it outside the civilizational umbrella provided by NATO and the E.U. The spirit of the Stonewall uprising in New York, which occurred 50 years ago this week, lives on the streets of Tbilisi: On June 14, gay-rights activists demonstrated outside the main government building to demand police protection for an upcoming Pride march. They were attacked by far-right activists as police passively looked on.​
In my study tour group’s meetings with Baltic officials, the question repeatedly came up of why the United States should risk blood and treasure in the defense of tiny countries along Russia’s border. Former House speaker Newt Gingrich, then acting as a campaign surrogate for Donald Trump, gave voice to this sentiment during the 2016 presidential election when he said that Estonia was just some place in “the suburbs of St. Petersburg.”​
For an answer to that “why” question, I will defer to Natan Sharansky, the dissident whose quest to free his fellow Jews from Soviet captivity helped bring about the evil empire’s collapse.​
Years ago, Sharansky came up with a “town square test” to distinguish the free society from what he termed a “fear society.” Can a person walk into the town square and express his opinion without fear of being arrested or harmed? “The understanding of linkage between democracy and peace was always very seldom understood,” Sharansky told me last month. “And that’s why it is our highest interest that our neighbors have democratic rule and not dictators.”​
One suspects that if Russia were a place where Pride parades were allowed, its quarrels with the United States, and ours with it, would diminish.​

I don't see a problem with spreading LGBTQ+ ideology to former Communist countries, frankly. Well, not so long as it doesn't descend into total lunacy. In Russia right now, I fear that even public displays of affection for same-sex couples could result in them getting arrested. How exactly is that fair to them? And they can't get married to each other or even get a civil partnership with each other either. :(

But in regards to protecting the Baltic countries from Russia, Yeah, I'll be honest that, from a geopolitical perspective, Ukraine is more important than the Baltic countries are, at least if it could actually get its act together. Ukraine has almost 40 million people (excluding the occupied areas) whereas the Baltic countries have less than 10 million people. So, Ukraine is a more crucial addition to the West than the Baltic countries are. But the Baltic countries were able to reform themselves much faster than Ukraine was, which is why they're already in the EU and NATO and Ukraine isn't.
 
Largely because they are all tied in, you're trying to pretend its not all inter-connected when it quite obviously is. Hell, even Western Think Tanks openly admitted this:

Marija Golubeva, a recently elected member of the Saeima, the Latvian Parliament, told me it is often “not religious feelings, but the heritage of Soviet ideology” that determines the extent to which a nation respects LGBTQ equality. Countries that overcome their totalitarian pasts—as the Baltic states have admirably done, shedding their command economies and authoritarian political structures for membership in NATO and the European Union—will progress toward recognizing the basic dignity of their gay and lesbian citizens.​
“The share of people who say that religion is very important in their lives is higher in Spain and Norway than in Lithuania and Latvia, or even in Russia,” Golubeva said. “Yet it is in Spain and not in Russia that people of the same sex can marry.” Golubeva is just the second openly gay politician in Latvia, following the country’s foreign minister, who came out in 2014 and is still serving.​
Keenly aware of the anxieties many socially conservative people in the former Soviet space harbor about homosexuality, the Kremlin exploits the issue for geopolitical aims. On Sunday, thousands marched for LGBTQ rights in Ukraine, a country that has paid a hard price for its Western aspirations in the form of Russian occupation forces on its sovereign territory. As part of its propaganda narrative, Moscow paints pro-West Ukrainians as wishing to subsume the country under “Gayropa.”​
Now consider Georgia: Like the Baltics, it is a former Soviet republic, but luckless geography places it outside the civilizational umbrella provided by NATO and the E.U. The spirit of the Stonewall uprising in New York, which occurred 50 years ago this week, lives on the streets of Tbilisi: On June 14, gay-rights activists demonstrated outside the main government building to demand police protection for an upcoming Pride march. They were attacked by far-right activists as police passively looked on.​
In my study tour group’s meetings with Baltic officials, the question repeatedly came up of why the United States should risk blood and treasure in the defense of tiny countries along Russia’s border. Former House speaker Newt Gingrich, then acting as a campaign surrogate for Donald Trump, gave voice to this sentiment during the 2016 presidential election when he said that Estonia was just some place in “the suburbs of St. Petersburg.”​
For an answer to that “why” question, I will defer to Natan Sharansky, the dissident whose quest to free his fellow Jews from Soviet captivity helped bring about the evil empire’s collapse.​
Years ago, Sharansky came up with a “town square test” to distinguish the free society from what he termed a “fear society.” Can a person walk into the town square and express his opinion without fear of being arrested or harmed? “The understanding of linkage between democracy and peace was always very seldom understood,” Sharansky told me last month. “And that’s why it is our highest interest that our neighbors have democratic rule and not dictators.”​
One suspects that if Russia were a place where Pride parades were allowed, its quarrels with the United States, and ours with it, would diminish.​
The Baltic States are a funny example to take for this, because there is a completely alternative explanation for their... vulnerability to such operations. Namely, they are tiny countries with tiny populations (none of them crosses 2m, all 3 together have less population than freaking Israel) and proportionally little economic, political and cultural power. Hence they have no weight to throw in international organizations like EU, and their politicians are more than eager to do things for them in exchange for scraps from Berlin or Brussels. Even the kind of sums and influence thrown by cultural-political NGOs are significant to them.

Obviously such influence operations are not nearly as easy in even slightly larger countries of the region, like Hungary or Czechia, nevermind those with double digit million populations, like Poland or Ukraine. And then there is nearly 100 million Turkey in NATO, which actually does half the stuff the former get accused of, yet the only thing NATO loudly complains about regarding it are things of real military significance, like operations in Syria and miltech cooperation with Russia.
 
The Baltic States are a funny example to take for this, because there is a completely alternative explanation for their... vulnerability to such operations. Namely, they are tiny countries with tiny populations (none of them crosses 2m, all 3 together have less population than freaking Israel) and proportionally little economic, political and cultural power. Hence they have no weight to throw in international organizations like EU, and their politicians are more than eager to do things for them in exchange for scraps from Berlin or Brussels. Even the kind of sums and influence thrown by cultural-political NGOs are significant to them.

Obviously such influence operations are not nearly as easy in even slightly larger countries of the region, like Hungary or Czechia, nevermind those with double digit million populations, like Poland or Ukraine. And then there is nearly 100 million Turkey in NATO, which actually does half the stuff the former get accused of, yet the only thing NATO loudly complains about regarding it are things of real military significance, like operations in Syria and miltech cooperation with Russia.

Nice goalpost shift, given your original argument was that NATO has no role in these and now you've shifted it depends on population size, when all we need do is look at Poland (which you specifically cited) to see that's wrong. I can even go further and nitpick on things like the statement about 100 million Turks lol.
 
Nice goalpost shift, given your original argument was that NATO has no role in these and now you've shifted it depends on population size, when all we need do is look at Poland (which you specifically cited) to see that's wrong.
Make better arguments instead of doing silly stuff like goalpost shift accusations, this isn't SB.
One progressive politician's brown nosing musings are no evidence of NATO role in anything.
A lot of such statements from politicians and think tanks are prescriptive rather than descriptive.
I can even go further and nitpick on things like the statement about 100 million Turks lol.
Go on, please continue to ignore the word "nearly" i've put in front ot it, that's gonna be fun.
 

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