Russian-Ukrainian-Polish Eternal Friendship Thread

History Learner

Well-known member
Make better arguments instead of doing silly stuff like goalpost shift accusations, this isn't SB.
One progressive politician's brown nosing musings are no evidence of NATO role in anything.
A lot of such statements from politicians and think tanks are prescriptive rather than descriptive.

I'll wait for you to make an actual argument at all, because just handwaving it away tells me you can't actually address it. The Brookings Institute is one of the largest think tanks in the United States, and serves as a policy house for the Democrats for the most part; it's a large part of their brain trust, so explain to me why it should be ignored.

Go on, please continue to ignore the word "nearly" i've put in front ot it, that's gonna be fun.

15 million is pretty big "nearly".
 

Marduk

Well-known member
Moderator
Staff Member
I'll wait for you to make an actual argument at all, because just handwaving it away tells me you can't actually address it. The Brookings Institute is one of the largest think tanks in the United States, and serves as a policy house for the Democrats for the most part; it's a large part of their brain trust, so explain to me why it should be ignored.
Bingo.
News at eleven, think tank says stuff its backers like to hear.
Doesn't mean its true though. Not that it even says much.
They are quoting a personally biased politician in the middle of a virtue signalling operation, who still comes up with symbolisms and correlations, not any actual solid actions NATO took.

Meanwhile, Turkey is in NATO for much longer than Baltic States, where are the LGBTWTFBBQ politics in Turkey?
15 million is pretty big "nearly".
Yes, but still.
So approaching an order of magnitude.
You may really want to check what an order of magnitude means.
 

History Learner

Well-known member
Bingo.
News at eleven, think tank says stuff its backers like to hear.
Doesn't mean its true though. Not that it even says much.

The amount of arrogance it takes to claim yourself to be the sole arbiter of truth is honestly hilarious. You don't have any counter argument to offer here, it's clear, and so can only say "it's not true". You ever stopped to consider why these types back NATO to the hilt and support its expansion? Why people like Clinton or Biden support deepening ties between Ukraine and NATO? Their think tanks say it happens and they support it, ever stopped to consider why that is or is more soothing for your own conscience to just stick your head in the sand?

Hell, how about asking hard questions about why NATO has hired Antifa doxxers?

They are quoting a personally biased politician in the middle of a virtue signalling operation, who still comes up with symbolisms and correlations, not any actual solid actions NATO took.

Again, you need to learn to read sources before trying to debate on them:

Marija Golubeva, a recently elected member of the Saeima, the Latvian Parliament, told me it is often “not religious feelings, but the heritage of Soviet ideology” that determines the extent to which a nation respects LGBTQ equality. Countries that overcome their totalitarian pasts—as the Baltic states have admirably done, shedding their command economies and authoritarian political structures for membership in NATO and the European Union—will progress toward recognizing the basic dignity of their gay and lesbian citizens.

I.e. the requirements to join the organizations in question directly engender policies that lead to what we are seeing.

Meanwhile, Turkey is in NATO for much longer than Baltic States, where are the LGBTWTFBBQ politics in Turkey?

Largely because they elected a government in the last few decades that actively suppressed them and adopts "command economies and authoritarian political structures" directly hostile to the cultivation of such?

Yes, but still.

You may really want to check what an order of magnitude means.

Same for you and basic rounding.
 

WolfBear

Well-known member
The amount of arrogance it takes to claim yourself to be the sole arbiter of truth is honestly hilarious. You don't have any counter argument to offer here, it's clear, and so can only say "it's not true". You ever stopped to consider why these types back NATO to the hilt and support its expansion? Why people like Clinton or Biden support deepening ties between Ukraine and NATO? Their think tanks say it happens and they support it, ever stopped to consider why that is or is more soothing for your own conscience to just stick your head in the sand?

Hell, how about asking hard questions about why NATO has hired Antifa doxxers?



Again, you need to learn to read sources before trying to debate on them:

Marija Golubeva, a recently elected member of the Saeima, the Latvian Parliament, told me it is often “not religious feelings, but the heritage of Soviet ideology” that determines the extent to which a nation respects LGBTQ equality. Countries that overcome their totalitarian pasts—as the Baltic states have admirably done, shedding their command economies and authoritarian political structures for membership in NATO and the European Union—will progress toward recognizing the basic dignity of their gay and lesbian citizens.

I.e. the requirements to join the organizations in question directly engender policies that lead to what we are seeing.



Largely because they elected a government in the last few decades that actively suppressed them and adopts "command economies and authoritarian political structures" directly hostile to the cultivation of such?



Same for you and basic rounding.

Again, what exactly is wrong with the LGBTQ+ ideology so long as it does not involve harming children (puberty blockers, genital surgeries, et cetera for minors)?
 

Marduk

Well-known member
Moderator
Staff Member
The amount of arrogance it takes to claim yourself to be the sole arbiter of truth is honestly hilarious. You don't have any counter argument to offer here, it's clear, and so can only say "it's not true". You ever stopped to consider why these types back NATO to the hilt and support its expansion? Why people like Clinton or Biden support deepening ties between Ukraine and NATO? Their think tanks say it happens and they support it, ever stopped to consider why that is or is more soothing for your own conscience to just stick your head in the sand?
That's very simple. No matter who ends up in Biden's seat later, red, pink or blue, why wouldn't they want the international significance of that seat they will be fighting for increased, rather than ceding some of it to the seat in Moscow?
And it definitely helps that the countries in question have experience with being under the influence of that latter and overwhelmingly say no than you don't come again.
Atlantic Council is not NATO and takes Soros' OSF funding, which makes it obvious why it hires this kind of people.
It is a non-profit which is a part of this:
ATA is an independent organization that is separate from NATO.
Do not mistake glorified NATO groupies for NATO.

Again, you need to learn to read sources before trying to debate on them:

Marija Golubeva, a recently elected member of the Saeima, the Latvian Parliament, told me it is often “not religious feelings, but the heritage of Soviet ideology” that determines the extent to which a nation respects LGBTQ equality. Countries that overcome their totalitarian pasts—as the Baltic states have admirably done, shedding their command economies and authoritarian political structures for membership in NATO and the European Union—will progress toward recognizing the basic dignity of their gay and lesbian citizens.

I.e. the requirements to join the organizations in question directly engender policies that lead to what we are seeing.
Which as the examples of Hungary, Poland and Turkey directly show, she's just self-backpatting her own political faction for its victories.

I'm pretty sure the Kemalists were not huge fans of the LGBT movement either.
 

WolfBear

Well-known member
That's fine, but then don't complain when I advocate for the United States to wash its hands of the whole thing if we start going down that route.

So, a US withdrawal from both NATO and the UN? Should Europe take care of its own security in such a scenario? Similar to what would have occurred had France not fallen in 1940 and the Anglo-French subsequently emerged victorious?
 

Husky_Khan

The Dog Whistler... I mean Whisperer.
Founder
So, a US withdrawal from both NATO and the UN? Should Europe take care of its own security in such a scenario? Similar to what would have occurred had France not fallen in 1940 and the Anglo-French subsequently emerged victorious?

Bruh is this a rhetorical question? He thinks it'd of been better for Britain and Europe if Britain sued for peace in 1940 and the Confederacy to win the Civil War would've been better for America.

Compared to that his stance on NATO today is mild. :p
 

History Learner

Well-known member
That's very simple. No matter who ends up in Biden's seat later, red, pink or blue, why wouldn't they want the international significance of that seat they will be fighting for increased, rather than ceding some of it to the seat in Moscow?
And it definitely helps that the countries in question have experience with being under the influence of that latter and overwhelmingly say no than you don't come again.

Except they don't justify it on power itself, they are justifying it based on the cultural effects NATO brings. You'll also recall that this is an extremely recent development of the last few decades too; they weren't big supporters of NATO until recently. Hell, tell me why people like George Soros are suddenly funding "NATO groupies" as you call it and getting their message out there? Kindness of their hearts or they realize/support what NATO is doing, and as I am telling you right now they are?

Atlantic Council is not NATO and takes Soros' OSF funding, which makes it obvious why it hires this kind of people.
It is a non-profit which is a part of this:

Do not mistake glorified NATO groupies for NATO.

The Atlantic Council is separate in name only and back in the 1990s they were talking about using NATO for exactly what I'm saying:

The case for enlarging NATO "is compelling and rooted in the most vital security interests of this country," Deputy Secretary of State Strobe Talbott told a gathering of ambassadors, journalists, and interested parties at the Atlantic Council May 20.
Talbott placed the North Atlantic Treaty Organization's (NATO) decision to take on new members -- expected to be made formally at the Madrid Conference in July -- in the context of 20th century Europe's wars and President Clinton's desire to assure a "safer and more prosperous" continent in the future.​
Although the old threat which gave NATO much of its meaning during the Cold War era has disappeared, new ones are appearing, Talbott said, citing the war in Bosnia in particular.​
In fact, he added, NATO does not need an enemy to justify its existence. "It needs an enduring purpose, and that it has: namely, to undergird transatlantic security, to provide the mechanisms for coordinating mutual defense, and to maintain the collective will and capability to meet new threats."​
While NATO retains its military capacity, Talbott said, it can "more than ever before, foster integration and cooperation between what we used to think of as East and West."​
Moreover, NATO's open door "can foster integration and cooperation among the Central Europeans themselves," he added, noting that "in pursuit of their goal to join NATO, a number of Central European states have accelerated their internal reforms and improved relations with each other." Interest in the Alliance has already spurred border agreements between Poland and Lithuania, the Czech Republic and Germany, Hungary and Romania, and Romania and Ukraine.​
In addition to remaining a military alliance, NATO has an important political role, Talbott said. It can act as a catalyst for consolidating democracy, establishing the rule of law, promoting religious tolerance and human rights, and encouraging civilian control of the military.
Talbott did not identify which countries he believes will be brought into NATO at Madrid, but stressed that the conference will only be "the beginning of a process, not the end." No democracy that wants to join is excluded, he said.​

Which as the examples of Hungary, Poland and Turkey directly show, she's just self-backpatting her own political faction for its victories.

Based on what? That you persist with the fiction it's one politician claiming something shows you've either not read it or you're acting in bad faith on this.

I'm pretty sure the Kemalists were not huge fans of the LGBT movement either.

They've also been out of power long before it became a global political force.
 

WolfBear

Well-known member
Bruh is this a rhetorical question? He thinks it'd of been better for Britain and Europe if Britain sued for peace in 1940 and the Confederacy to win the Civil War would've been better for America.

Compared to that his stance on NATO today is mild. :p

@History Learner: Do you think that the Anglo-French should have accepted Hitler's peace overtures in late 1939 (after the Fall of Poland) as well? What about not making the Polish guarantee in the first place? And I don't mean not applying it to Danzig, but rather not making it at all and not having it apply to any part of Poland proper either.
 

History Learner

Well-known member
@History Learner: Do you think that the Anglo-French should have accepted Hitler's peace overtures in late 1939 (after the Fall of Poland) as well? What about not making the Polish guarantee in the first place? And I don't mean not applying it to Danzig, but rather not making it at all and not having it apply to any part of Poland proper either.

Probably, yes. They were in no condition to fight a war in 1939 or 1940 even, by their own admission; the French thought they would not be ready until 1941 or 1942. Churchill could not promise a sizeable BEF until 1941, either. It would've been better to continue building up, while hopefully triggering a Nazi-Soviet war over Eastern Europe in the interim.

Bruh is this a rhetorical question? He thinks it'd of been better for Britain and Europe if Britain sued for peace in 1940 and the Confederacy to win the Civil War would've been better for America.

Compared to that his stance on NATO today is mild. :p

Lol, too afraid to even @ now?
 

WolfBear

Well-known member
Probably, yes. They were in no condition to fight a war in 1939 or 1940 even, by their own admission; the French thought they would not be ready until 1941 or 1942. Churchill could not promise a sizeable BEF until 1941, either. It would've been better to continue building up, while hopefully triggering a Nazi-Soviet war over Eastern Europe in the interim.

Sad that France built up all of these alliances in the 1920s but would then be refusing to honor them. First Czechoslovakia, then Poland, ...

In that case, why bother with these alliances at all? Why not try to make nice with Germany from the very beginning while leaving Eastern Europe to its fate?
 

Marduk

Well-known member
Moderator
Staff Member
Except they don't justify it on power itself, they are justifying it based on the cultural effects NATO brings.
Except as we have established, it fails to bring them in some major cases, and said effects happen the most in some countries that never were in NATO. Hence, its not very relevant to said effects.
You'll also recall that this is an extremely recent development of the last few decades too; they weren't big supporters of NATO until recently. Hell, tell me why people like George Soros are suddenly funding "NATO groupies" as you call it and getting their message out there? Kindness of their hearts or they realize/support what NATO is doing, and as I am telling you right now they are?
For the same reasons he funds various entertainment groupies. They are working to subvert it.

Moreover, NATO's open door "can foster integration and cooperation among the Central Europeans themselves," he added, noting that "in pursuit of their goal to join NATO, a number of Central European states have accelerated their internal reforms and improved relations with each other." Interest in the Alliance has already spurred border agreements between Poland and Lithuania, the Czech Republic and Germany, Hungary and Romania, and Romania and Ukraine.​
In addition to remaining a military alliance, NATO has an important political role, Talbott said. It can act as a catalyst for consolidating democracy, establishing the rule of law, promoting religious tolerance and human rights, and encouraging civilian control of the military.
Talbott did not identify which countries he believes will be brought into NATO at Madrid, but stressed that the conference will only be "the beginning of a process, not the end." No democracy that wants to join is excluded, he said.​
How are these points different from plain ol' liberal politics that would be considered normal even in the NATO of 1960's?

Based on what? That you persist with the fiction it's one politician claiming something shows you've either not read it or you're acting in bad faith on this.
Perhaps i wouldn't if you didn't pick a random MP from a country with minimal influence and from a party which would wish it be true.
Which does make it "one politician claiming something".

They've also been out of power long before it became a global political force.
So you think the military leaders that were the power on the political scene right before Erdogan (last successful coup in 1997) were big fans of LGBT?
 

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