Russian Invasion of Ukraine 2022

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Not sure how I feel about people rooting on an insurgency in Ukraine. Feels too much like let's see you and him fight for me. Kinda feels like encouraging civilian resistance so that the Russians respond, so you can condemn the Russians for killing resisting civilians. I mean sure, you can feel morally superior to the Russians and add more sanctions. But it's sure tough on the guys getting shelled for it so you can finger wag and honestly the US spent how long fighting insurgents in the sandbox?

Without direct military intervention from the west, the Ukraine looks pretty fucked. Demanding that they drive up Russian casualties and resist to the bitter end sure sounds like a shit deal for the Ukrainians, especially with zero support.
 
Butch R. Mann said:
Ever heard of Grozny?
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What about Mosul? Or Aleppo?

Wargamer08 said:
Not sure how I feel about people rooting on an insurgency in Ukraine. Feels too much like let's see you and him fight for me. Kinda feels like encouraging civilian resistance so that the Russians respond, so you can condemn the Russians for killing resisting civilians. I mean sure, you can feel morally superior to the Russians and add more sanctions. But it's sure tough on the guys getting shelled for it so you can finger wag and honestly the US spent how long fighting insurgents in the sandbox?

Without direct military intervention from the west, the Ukraine looks pretty fucked. Demanding that they drive up Russian casualties and resist to the bitter end sure sounds like a shit deal for the Ukrainians, especially with zero support.
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Agreed that it's much easier for Ukrainians to simply emigrate to the West as refugees.
 
Wargamer08 said:
Not sure how I feel about people rooting on an insurgency in Ukraine. Feels too much like let's see you and him fight for me. Kinda feels like encouraging civilian resistance so that the Russians respond, so you can condemn the Russians for killing resisting civilians. I mean sure, you can feel morally superior to the Russians and add more sanctions. But it's sure tough on the guys getting shelled for it so you can finger wag and honestly the US spent how long fighting insurgents in the sandbox?

Without direct military intervention from the west, the Ukraine looks pretty fucked. Demanding that they drive up Russian casualties and resist to the bitter end sure sounds like a shit deal for the Ukrainians, especially with zero support.
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Though, to be honest, the reason that NATO (and the west) is so reactive right now is that we're looking at someone that can use something innocuous and turn it into callus beli.
 
Aaron Fox said:
Though, to be honest, the reason that NATO (and the west) is so reactive right now is that we're looking at someone that can use something innocuous and turn it into callus beli.
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I mean the time to respond was today. I'd be shocked if there is coherent resistance in western Ukraine by Sunday. NATO and the EU are out, and Biden is still taking sanctions. Which makes cheering on an insurgency feel ghoulish to me.

Now, I've made no effort to hide that I don't think the US should militarily intervene. But that has more to do with current US leadership then anything else. The EU also has far more proximity and interests in the area. Now I'm not sure that EU even has mechanisms to stage an intervention, if it does they certainly would not be fast ones and would likely be subject to member veto. Germany feels real indifferent to this invasion, so I'm not sure that goes anywhere.
 
Wargamer08 said:
I mean the time to respond was today. I'd be shocked if there is coherent resistance in western Ukraine by Sunday. NATO and the EU are out, and Biden is still taking sanctions. Which makes cheering on an insurgency feel ghoulish to me.

Now, I've made no effort to hide that I don't think the US should militarily intervene. But that has more to do with current US leadership then anything else. The EU also has far more proximity and interests in the area. Now I'm not sure that EU even has mechanisms to stage an intervention, if it does they certainly would not be fast ones and would likely be subject to member veto. Germany feels real indifferent to this invasion, so I'm not sure that goes anywhere.
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At this point, the only real option is some sort of military intervention... but anything really overt means nukes to the face.
 
Aaron Fox said:
At this point, the only real option is some sort of military intervention... but anything really overt means nukes to the face.
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So I feel part of why it sounds like second rate Russian troops and equipment led the way was a hedge against massive USAF or USN airstrikes. No one is getting nuked for fighting in a third-party.
 
Wargamer08 said:
So I feel part of why it sounds like second rate Russian troops and equipment led the way was a hedge against massive USAF or USN airstrikes. No one is getting nuked for fighting in a third-party.
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You are forgetting that Ukraine was never -in the eyes of Russia- an independent state. In Russia's eyes, it's still Russian land, and that means their nuclear policy comes into play. Thus the tac-nukes to the face comment.

Now, if you can excuse me, I need to sleep and decompress before I go into an episode.
 
Wargamer08 said:
I mean the time to respond was today. I'd be shocked if there is coherent resistance in western Ukraine by Sunday. NATO and the EU are out, and Biden is still taking sanctions. Which makes cheering on an insurgency feel ghoulish to me.

Now, I've made no effort to hide that I don't think the US should militarily intervene. But that has more to do with current US leadership then anything else. The EU also has far more proximity and interests in the area. Now I'm not sure that EU even has mechanisms to stage an intervention, if it does they certainly would not be fast ones and would likely be subject to member veto. Germany feels real indifferent to this invasion, so I'm not sure that goes anywhere.
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The bulk of the EU, as in the people who pay the bills, do not want a war.They want Russian gas,raw materials and markets.
I am pretty sure they will try to erode any and all sanctions in short order.
I wonder what counter-sanctions Putin might put in place and how much they will hurt big US corpos.
 
WolfBear said:
What about Mosul? Or Aleppo?
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Grozny is Russian experience of urban fighting and as such relevant to their military planning. Falujah, Mosul and Aleppo don't really register for them, especially as Ukrainians are unlikely to use SVBIEDs. Although I sometimes wonder why no one in Donbass war used remote controlled VBIEDs, the idea is perfectly feasible.

Rusty Shackleford said:
There are rumors of the Russians in Kiev which I am inclined to believe because armor doesn't haul ass through a city like below without reason.
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It's Strela-10, probably part of capital air defense, most likely moving between preset overwatch positions. Russian forces are near the Kiev outskirts and are trying to link up with paratroopers at Hostomel.
 
Butch R. Mann said:
Grozny is Russian experience of urban fighting and as such relevant to their military planning. Falujah, Mosul and Aleppo don't really register for them, especially as Ukrainians are unlikely to use SVBIEDs. Although I sometimes wonder why no one in Donbass war used remote controlled VBIEDs, the idea is perfectly feasible.


It's Strela-10, probably part of capital air defense, most likely moving between preset overwatch positions. Russian forces are near the Kiev outskirts and are trying to link up with paratroopers at Hostomel.
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Come on Putin, go faster,I have a bet Russia will take Kiev in less than 2 days!
 
Carrot of Truth said:
Been seeing rumors of Ukraine starting to arm 15 year olds if that's not a sign of imminent defeat I don't know what is.
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They outright prohibit 18 to 60 year old men from exiting the country because of the draft.
Once that dense clown Zelenski flees, which IMO inevitable, you can kiss any organized Ukrainian resistance bye-bye.
 
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