Russia-Ukraine War Politics Thread Mk. 2

[Blasterbot]

At best they throw some money and agitprop into the discourse to fuck with us as a low cost middling return on investment thing. we could suddenly completely nuke them off the world and we would still have all these issues that will keep getting worse until people want to address the problems we have. thinking that throwing money into another forever war or throwing lives away to defeat this centuries great evil will unite the country and paper over these issues is folly.

 

[mrttao]

It's hilarious you think neither Beijing or Moscow are still actively pushing the wokies along.

But given your detachment from reality on the rest of the subjects around Ukraine and Russia's invasion of it, not surprising you think that way.

Words cannot describe how stupid this take is.

90%+ of every judge, every policeman, every news reporter, every school teacher, every banker, every corporate manager, every business owner, and every congress/equivalent government seats are held by either true believers of the woke cult, or people who are at least somewhat partial to the ideologies of the woke cult, or pretending to be because they got gaslit into thinking it is a requirement for holding office. This is in every since western country.

Do russia and china try to run some psy ops to manipulate public perception using some woke terminology? sure.

But you are not saying that, you are claiming that they are actively in control and that you literally cannot do anything about them without first destryoing russia and china...
Nope, can't remove woke cultist teachers and judges and public officials, that is totally impossible so long as russia is projecting a magic shield of invulnerability to cover those woke cultists holding political office in america, german, england, canadaia, australia, etc.

 

[Bacle]

Words cannot describe how stupid this take is.

90%+ of every judge, every policeman, every news reporter, every school teacher, every banker, every corporate manager, every business owner, and every congress/equivalent government seats are held by either true believers of the woke cult, or people who are at least somewhat partial to the ideologies of the woke cult. And that is in every western country.

Do russia and china try to run some psy ops to manipulate public perception using some woke terminology? sure.

But you are not saying that, you are claiming that they are actively in control and that you literally cannot do anything about them without first destryoing russia and china...
Nope, can't remove woke cultist teachers and judges and public officials, that is totally impossible so long as russia is projecting a magic shield of invulnerability to cover those woke cultists holding political office in america, german, england, canadaia, australia, etc.

The psy-ops they run for the wokies are not small things, and the historical facts of Soviet agents in a lot of institutions means that there are legacy actors who are doing the work of Moscow and Beijing, even if some may not realize it due to naivete.

We cannot defeat the woke in the west till we remove it's roots in Moscow and Beijing.

Anything else is just mitigating symptoms, not dealing with the source of the rot.

 

[Rocinante]

At best they throw some money and agitprop into the discourse to fuck with us as a low cost middling return on investment thing. we could suddenly completely nuke them off the world and we would still have all these issues that will keep getting worse until people want to address the problems we have. thinking that throwing money into another forever war or throwing lives away to defeat this centuries great evil will unite the country and paper over these issues is folly.

No dude, we just need to send $200bn more, Some tanks, planes and cluster missiles to Ukraine, and that'll solve the woke crisis that is fueled primarily by our university system and corporate HR culture.

That's totally it.

 

[Blasterbot]

The psy-ops they run for the wokies are not small things, and the historical facts of Soviet agents in a lot of institutions means that there are legacy actors who are doing the work of Moscow and Beijing, even if some may not realize it due to naivete.

We cannot defeat the woke in the west till we remove it's roots in Moscow and Beijing.

Anything else is just mitigating symptoms, not dealing with the source of the rot.

except while it is and was an aggravating factor it wasn't the source. socialists were around in america before the soviet union formed. the source isn't these foreign nations stirring shit in our universities. our universities are already taken over. dealing with that is more important. you gotta deal with how the establishment has been fucking over the average american so they can maintain power. You gotta deal with how young americans are generally either apathetic to the idea of america or outright hostile to its ideals due to indoctrination from the left in the educational system. You gotta deal with the mental health issues that have been allowed to fester and spread. you gotta deal with OUR borders and how we have Chinese nationals coming in through the southern border undocumented. You have to deal with how our economy is incredibly precarious right now if not outright completely fucked. you gotta deal with how after every war we have been in for a very long time we tell the veterens to fuck off their and their brothers sacrifice was meaningless. You have to deal with the drug issues carving a swath through our population. You have a dozen other issues in our country that need attention simultaneously to this. All these things exacerbating each other and making things worse.

Throwing a few hundred billion more into Ukraine to kill another hundred thousand Russians and Ukrainians and empty out Russia's Cold war stockpiles leaving them with nukes of questionable operational capability and little else is not particularly something that helps our major issues. saying that we are giving them old shit so we can spend more money on new shit from the MIC isn't really better. it still does little to nothing to address our issues.

 

[Abhorsen]

I'm not just referring to what I've stated myself but everything the others have brought here. Yes I am blunt, and ineloquent in English. I've never pretended otherwise. I've spent too long in Eastern Europe and the odd sentence structures they have here to remember my 90s college courses. I'm just happy I'm not writing in broken English.

This has nothing to do with how good or bad you are at English. You agreed that Russia didn't want to advance further here:

No. Crimea and Eastern Ukraine being partitioned is appeasement. Crimea and the rail links to Russia was Putin's minimum objective for victory. Everything up to the Berlin line is his lunatic fancy.

Yet you compared it to Chamberlains appeasement, which famously failed because it didn't stop Hitler. Hitler kept invading places afterwards. In contrast, you call this appeasement because Putin will be satisfied with what he got.

This isn't a language problem, this is a logical problem. The two points you make are in contrast with one another.

You could make this comparison to Chamberlain if you think Russia would invade a NATO country after Ukraine joins NATO and Russia got what (you say) it wanted. But you don't think that. You think that Russia will be okay with what it got, and won't invade further. That quite simply can't be compared to Chamberlain's appeasement, because Chamberlain didn't stop Hitler doing more invasions, but this would stop Putin from doing more. In fact, it's much more similar to Israel giving Sinai to Egypt in return for recognition and fairly permanent peace.

Now we could get into how I disagree with the points you make, about how in reality, getting a rail connection to Crimea is nice, but the only people calling that a victory for Russia are Russians high on Copium moving the goalposts. This is stuff where you could say we disagree on conclusions but agree on facts. But you cannot say that about your statements on appeasement, because your own statements contradict each other.

The psy-ops they run for the wokies are not small things, and the historical facts of Soviet agents in a lot of institutions means that there are legacy actors who are doing the work of Moscow and Beijing, even if some may not realize it due to naivete.

We cannot defeat the woke in the west till we remove it's roots in Moscow and Beijing.

Anything else is just mitigating symptoms, not dealing with the source of the rot.

Here, you show you understand neither threat prioritization nor how to deal with the woke problem.

All the psyops do is help wokies at home. The wokes at home will exist regardless of China or Russia, they have existed long before the rise of those nations as communist, and will exist afterwards.

As far as psyops go? Russia's attempts have little affect in comparison to the direct pressure China can put on American businesses. That you group them together shows that you actually think Russia still matters on the world stage. They are at the level of Iran 10 years from now: got nukes, got oil, a regional power, but a second/third tier power when it comes to the world stage. You are drinking Russian Hopium just the same as Russian shills do.

In contrast, China threatens something that actually matters (Taiwan), does actual direct damage to American Culture, and has an actual economy. How do you combat something like this? You don't declare war while there's a fifth column about. That would be moronic (so obviously, it's exactly what Bacle would think would be smart). Instead, you hit back culturally. You strengthen American culture at home, and use that to bash down China. There's a reason why China wants companies to bend to the ChiCom's wishes, and it' s not that they hate America (though they do). It's that they know that if the company doesn't bow, that's America doing cultural damage to China. We've already yanked their ideology of communism from them. They only pay it lip service. The leaders there know they are riding a tiger of prosperity, and should that Tiger stop running, it will devour them.

But because of the One Child Policy, it will stop running (and it could stop earlier also). China's on a time limit, and they know this. All the US has to do is survive 50 years, and keep its culture alive.

 

[Typhonis]

Another ship in Romanian waters hit a mine, this time it was Turkish flagged, so both countries involved are NATO members.

My bet is these are sea-mines emplaced by the Russian Kilo's.

So, who set the mine? Ukraine hoping to false flag NATO, or Russia not giving a damn whom they sink?

 

[The Whispering Monk]

Probably Russian. They've mined parts of the Black Sea around Ukraine, and it wouldn't surprise me if one of those mines relocated.

 

[Bacle]

except while it is and was an aggravating factor it wasn't the source. socialists were around in america before the soviet union formed. the source isn't these foreign nations stirring shit in our universities. our universities are already taken over. dealing with that is more important. you gotta deal with how the establishment has been fucking over the average american so they can maintain power. You gotta deal with how young americans are generally either apathetic to the idea of america or outright hostile to its ideals due to indoctrination from the left in the educational system. You gotta deal with the mental health issues that have been allowed to fester and spread. you gotta deal with OUR borders and how we have Chinese nationals coming in through the southern border undocumented. You have to deal with how our economy is incredibly precarious right now if not outright completely fucked. you gotta deal with how after every war we have been in for a very long time we tell the veterens to fuck off their and their brothers sacrifice was meaningless. You have to deal with the drug issues carving a swath through our population. You have a dozen other issues in our country that need attention simultaneously to this. All these things exacerbating each other and making things worse.

Throwing a few hundred billion more into Ukraine to kill another hundred thousand Russians and Ukrainians and empty out Russia's Cold war stockpiles leaving them with nukes of questionable operational capability and little else is not particularly something that helps our major issues. saying that we are giving them old shit so we can spend more money on new shit from the MIC isn't really better. it still does little to nothing to address our issues.

This has nothing to do with how good or bad you are at English. You agreed that Russia didn't want to advance further here:

Yet you compared it to Chamberlains appeasement, which famously failed because it didn't stop Hitler. Hitler kept invading places afterwards. In contrast, you call this appeasement because Putin will be satisfied with what he got.

This isn't a language problem, this is a logical problem. The two points you make are in contrast with one another.

You could make this comparison to Chamberlain if you think Russia would invade a NATO country after Ukraine joins NATO and Russia got what (you say) it wanted. But you don't think that. You think that Russia will be okay with what it got, and won't invade further. That quite simply can't be compared to Chamberlain's appeasement, because Chamberlain didn't stop Hitler doing more invasions, but this would stop Putin from doing more. In fact, it's much more similar to Israel giving Sinai to Egypt in return for recognition and fairly permanent peace.

Now we could get into how I disagree with the points you make, about how in reality, getting a rail connection to Crimea is nice, but the only people calling that a victory for Russia are Russians high on Copium moving the goalposts. This is stuff where you could say we disagree on conclusions but agree on facts. But you cannot say that about your statements on appeasement, because your own statements contradict each other.


Here, you show you understand neither threat prioritization nor how to deal with the woke problem.

All the psyops do is help wokies at home. The wokes at home will exist regardless of China or Russia, they have existed long before the rise of those nations as communist, and will exist afterwards.

As far as psyops go? Russia's attempts have little affect in comparison to the direct pressure China can put on American businesses. That you group them together shows that you actually think Russia still matters on the world stage. They are at the level of Iran 10 years from now: got nukes, got oil, a regional power, but a second/third tier power when it comes to the world stage. You are drinking Russian Hopium just the same as Russian shills do.

In contrast, China threatens something that actually matters (Taiwan), does actual direct damage to American Culture, and has an actual economy. How do you combat something like this? You don't declare war while there's a fifth column about. That would be moronic (so obviously, it's exactly what Bacle would think would be smart). Instead, you hit back culturally. You strengthen American culture at home, and use that to bash down China. There's a reason why China wants companies to bend to the ChiCom's wishes, and it' s not that they hate America (though they do). It's that they know that if the company doesn't bow, that's America doing cultural damage to China. We've already yanked their ideology of communism from them. They only pay it lip service. The leaders there know they are riding a tiger of prosperity, and should that Tiger stop running, it will devour them.

But because of the One Child Policy, it will stop running (and it could stop earlier also). China's on a time limit, and they know this. All the US has to do is survive 50 years, and keep its culture alive.

What you tow don't seem to get is that removing commies and socialist from US institutions is only a temporary win, unless the next step it to deal with Moscow and Beijing, or that is done at the same time as the US based commies.

Because we cannot keep the rot from creeping back in, if Moscow and Beijing are in a position to aid the commies and socialist in the west even after we remove the current crop.

 

[Largo]

You didn't read what I wrote: it's a threat because it influences and suborns companies, and does so in a way that lessens freedom and attacks American culture. It actually does stuff that affects Americans. Russia, quite simply, doesn't, and really hasn't since the 90s.

There's also the Taiwan stuff, and the Nork Support (which again, is such a bad country that I support any country with a chance invading North Korea. If Russia wants to expand by invading North Korea, I would advocate that the US sell arms to Russia, it's that awful a country to its people), and the alternate currency to the Petrodollar stuff, etc.

So because China influences and suborns companies and affects our way of life, that means that we shouldn't be giving weapons to the Ukrainians. Yeah, uh, no.

Because this is what I was getting at. You claim that China is a threat, and that Russia is not. Therefore we need to focus on China and not on Russia.

Except striking a blow in Ukraine is a move against China, especially under the present circumstances. Even if you argue that we shouldn't have helped Ukraine to begin with because they aren't a treaty ally (and I think that this is a ridiculous argument but whatever), the fact is that we are, as it stands, in the Ukrainian camp. And what people will see (and what will unfortunately probably happen in the months to come) is that the United States is unreliable. Keep the pressure up for a year or two, and eventually they'll whine and go home.

This was literally what Putin thought at the beginning of the Ukrainian war. He thought he would win. And he bet that while the West would bitch and moan, within a year or two they would be back to buying Russian oil and things would be cool. That soft democracies cannot stand up to Hard Dictators Making Hard Decisions.

And this is what Xi thinks. And we would be proving him right.

What sort of message does a withdrawal then send? The United States has decided that Ukraine isn't worth its business, and so is unwilling to even contribute money and metal. But apparently, the United States is willing spend tens of thousands of lives (and a Taiwan contingency will very likely see thousands of Americans dead and dozens of ships sunk even if we are successful) to challenge China? A withdrawal from Ukraine will not strengthen, but rather weaken our position vis-a-vis China.

I'm going to be honest. If you think that neither China nor Putin are a threat, and that we should just tear up NATO, disband the US Army, and focus on fighting gay wokesters or whatever? That argument is more reasonable to me than the ludicrous idea that China, but not Russia are threats. Both are threats, or neither are. And this is completely tangetial to the other, non-geopolitical ways that China is a problem which you touched on.

 

[Bacle]

So the Norks are sending more ammo and artillery to Russia, openly now.

Sounds like it's time for Kimmy Boy's industrial base to suffer some 'unexplained fires'.

I doubt the Norks have good enough radar to pick up some cardboard drones with C-4 in them.

 

[AnimalNoodles]

So the Norks are sending more ammo and artillery to Russia, openly now.

Sounds like it's time for Kimmy Boy's industrial base to suffer some 'unexplained fires'.

I doubt the Norks have good enough radar to pick up some cardboard drones with C-4 in them.

Ah yes, expand the conflict even more and expose your allies in the region to retaliation. Very smart diplomacy.

 

[Marduk]

Ah yes, expand the conflict even more and expose your allies in the region to retaliation. Very smart diplomacy.

Chad yes. We shouldn't fear third world shitholes, third world shitholes should fear us, and we should act according, explain to them why they should. It's a shame only few people are realizing it and only now, and very ironic that once it happens, some people who said it long ago suddenly turn around and adopt the white flag position instead, of begging third world shitholes to plz not hurt us, because they simp for some of the shitholes.

 

[AnimalNoodles]

Chad yes. We shouldn't fear third world shitholes, third world shitholes should fear us, and we should act according, explain to them why they should. It's a shame only few people are realizing it and only now, and very ironic that once it happens, some people who said it long ago suddenly turn around and adopt the white flag position instead, of begging third world shitholes to plz not hurt us, because they simp for some of the shitholes.

Well guess what, the more you use force, the more your enemies can find ways to defeat that force. And at some point, you fuck up and then they no longer fear you because they see you can be defeated.

If you could use force against NK you would have, long ago.

 

[Marduk]

Well guess what, the more you use force, the more your enemies can find ways to defeat that force.

LMAO, watch out or Trudeau will start stealing your quotes.

And at some point, you fuck up and then they no longer fear you because they see you can be defeated.

Then we should stop fucking up, period.

If you could use force against NK you would have, long ago.

Should have.

 

[LordsFire]

Well guess what, the more you use force, the more your enemies can find ways to defeat that force. And at some point, you fuck up and then they no longer fear you because they see you can be defeated.

If you could use force against NK you would have, long ago.

....Are you serious?

The US could bury Pyongyang in a matter of hours. We could probably completely wreck their government and key military infrastructure with a single carrier group.

The problem isn't a lack of capability, it's a lack of political will.

Frankly, they should have been cleaned up as soon as the USSR dissolved.

 

[AnimalNoodles]

....Are you serious?

The US could bury Pyongyang in a matter of hours. We could probably completely wreck their government and key military infrastructure with a single carrier group.

The problem isn't a lack of capability, it's a lack of political will.

Frankly, they should have been cleaned up as soon as the USSR dissolved.

Its not a lack of will. Its the knowledge you would ignite a much larger war you likely will not win.

 

[Abhorsen]

So because China influences and suborns companies and affects our way of life, that means that we shouldn't be giving weapons to the Ukrainians. Yeah, uh, no.

Yeah, that looks like a bad argument to me too. Hence why I didn't make that argument. I'm not even arguing here for not supplying Ukraine. I'm arguing for a peace deal offer that's nearly a complete US victory (not Ukrainian victory, a US victory, tbc). Try again.

I'm going to be honest. If you think that neither China nor Putin are a threat, and that we should just tear up NATO, disband the US Army, and focus on fighting gay wokesters or whatever? That argument is more reasonable to me than the ludicrous idea that China, but not Russia are threats. Both are threats, or neither are. And this is completely tangetial to the other, non-geopolitical ways that China is a problem which you touched on.

Your entire argument, meanwhile, gave no validity to Russia actually being a threat, just that we should support Ukraine as a message to China. But now you claim both are threats?

Look, what I'm offering is a near total US victory: Ukraine in NATO, Finland in NATO, Russia with nowhere left to expand to in Europe. It's just enough for Russia that Putin can play to his people in Russia that they won, but that's the end of Russia as something that matters. A mini-end of history for Russia in Europe. They have nothing else they can do. They've burned all of their soft power they spend 30 years acquiring in Europe. They don't have any hard power. They have nowhere to attack that isn't NATO. What do they matter now?

What you tow don't seem to get is that removing commies and socialist from US institutions is only a temporary win, unless the next step it to deal with Moscow and Beijing, or that is done at the same time as the US based commies.

Because we cannot keep the rot from creeping back in, if Moscow and Beijing are in a position to aid the commies and socialist in the west even after we remove the current crop.

... You utterly fail to understand your enemy. Moscow did, and Beijing does, encourage commies, but they are not the source. The source is human envy and the belief of smart people that they are uniquely capable and can solve the impossible problem that other, actually smarter, people failed at.

The commies in the US existed before the rise of Moscow and Beijing, and will exist far after.

....Are you serious?

The US could bury Pyongyang in a matter of hours. We could probably completely wreck their government and key military infrastructure with a single carrier group.

The problem isn't a lack of capability, it's a lack of political will.

Frankly, they should have been cleaned up as soon as the USSR dissolved.

This. Though I will say there's a reason for the lack of political will: it's that the Norks also have a ton of artillery, and are basically holding Seoul hostage. All nukes did was add to their hostages.

Its not a lack of will. Its the knowledge you would ignite a much larger war you likely will not win.

The US would win. The problem is that South Korea would lose. Oh, they'd be on the victor's side, but they'd lose too many civilians.

 

[mrttao]

The psy-ops they run for the wokies are not small things, and the historical facts of Soviet agents in a lot of institutions means that there are legacy actors who are doing the work of Moscow and Beijing, even if some may not realize it due to naivete.

We cannot defeat the woke in the west till we remove it's roots in Moscow and Beijing.

Anything else is just mitigating symptoms, not dealing with the source of the rot.

> "My neighbor intentionally infected with me the plague, I cannot cure it before killing him. there is no point in taking antibiotics, antibiotics does not cure diseases, it just treats the symptoms! The only way to become cured of the plague is to remove the plague by the roots by killing my neighbor, which will instantly cure me"
- how bacle thinks things work

Defeating the woke cult is a massive challenge, but one mostly unrelated to its origins. Said origin being a mashup of foreign communist influences and local at home movements that got merged together.

CCP is influencing it very mildly, russia is barely managing to do anything at all.
It is a death cult that swept up the ruling class.
What we have is most of the commoners, what they have is the ruling class, academia, courts, media, govt, and banks.

If we remove every woke cultists from every single school, court house, and political office in the west then we would have massively transformed our societies and also nearly solved the woke cult issue. Remove them from every major institute and you solve the issue entirely.

At that point there might be a risk of reinfection from foreign powers...
but it is far more likely that foreign enemies would simply switch tracks to other methods of attacks rather than trying to use a discredited movement.

 

[Bacle]

> "My neighbor intentionally infected with me the plague, I cannot cure it before killing him. there is no point in taking antibiotics, antibiotics does not cure diseases, it just treats the symptoms! The only way to become cured of the plague is to remove the plague by the roots by killing my neighbor, which will instantly cure me"
- how bacle thinks things work

Defeating the woke cult is a massive challenge, but one mostly unrelated to its origin (not roots, origin) in moscow and beijing.
CCP is influencing it mildly, russia is barely managing to do anything at all.
It is a death cult that swept up the ruling class.
What we have is most of the commoners, what they have is the ruling class, academia, courts, media, govt, and banks.

If we remove every woke cultists from every single school, court house, and political office in the west then we would have massively transformed our societies and also effectively solved the woke cult issue.

At that point there might be a risk of reinfection... but it is far more likely that foreign enemies would simply switch tracks to other methods of attacks rather than trying to use a discredited movement.

You seem to not get we can purge the commies at home and deal with Moscow and Beijing at the same time, it doesn't have to one or the other.