Russia-Ukraine War Politics Thread Mk. 2

[Bacle]

And what make you think Russia won't fight us when we fight China?

A desire not to get nuked, as well as a frankly anemic naval situation outside some of their subs.

I mean if Russia decides to make a go at Alaska or move on the Baltics why the CCP go after Taiwan, then it is only a short step up the escalation ladder to nukes, and the fight with the CCP over Taiwan is likely to escalate to nukes as well, if it drags on too long.

Frankly I'm expect that tactical nukes will come into play in the next few years, if the CCP isn't stopped before establishing a foothold on Taiwan itself.

 

[Marduk]

I do not know why I fucking bothered, you will not listen to anything outside your own narrow world view

Yes, unlike yours, my worldview i thought out myself. You get yours from carefully curated for agreeing with you social media sources.

and think being insulting and mocking towards concerns and views shared by many Americans does anything but make them even less likely to give a damn about what you and people like you have to say.

Pause the drama queening for a moment and understand that as i explained, just because people have concerns and views doesn't automatically make those concerns and views right. If you demand everyone else to just accept your concerns and views as 100% right and non-questionable because reasons, i guess there's nothing to talk about.
You have the right to be wrong on account of personal ideological bent and stubborn like an ass about it, but you're not entitled to that position being respected.

It is fucking waste of my time to engage with you.

Likewise, it seems.

We aren't going to fight a war with Russia over Ukraine, that is the long and short of it.

No one ordered a strawman yet you brought one and wave it around like a maniac.
This is the same retarded logic Russia simps used in 2022 and useful idiot de-escalationists accepted later.

 

[Bacle]

Yes, unlike yours, my worldview i thought out myself. You get yours from carefully curated for agreeing with you social media sources.

No, you fucking moron, my world views are formed from my own opinions, what I have experienced, and what I have seen in my life.

But nothing outside your narrow world view is legit and self-formed opinions, because Marduk all kjnowing and all mighty knows all, sees all, and pretends anyone who doesn't agree with you is because of 'demoralization', 'Russian psy-ops', and 'peaceniks shitlibs'.

You are exactly the type of European that has driven away so much of the US from caring about Europe.

Pause the drama queening for a moment and understand that as i explained, just because people have concerns and views doesn't automatically make those concerns and views right. If you demand everyone else to just accept your concerns and views as 100% right and non-questionable because reasons, i guess there's nothing to talk about.
You have the right to be wrong on account of personal ideological bent and stubborn like an ass about it, but you're not entitled to that position being respected.

You are not right about everything, and just because someone has a different view than you, doesn't make those views or concerns invalid.

You have always treated anyone with different views than your as someone to be insulted and belittled, on damn near every subject, and think spaghetti posting those insults and and belittling somehow makes them more legit, rather than just make people stop engaging with you because you will try to nitpick and dismiss anything and everything that doesn't agree with your world view.

No one ordered a strawman yet you brought one and wave it around like a maniac.
This is the same retarded logic Russia simps used in 2022 and useful idiot de-escalationists accepted later.

Oh please, 'only thing Russia understands is a clenched fist' is very much talking about at least threatening war with Russia over Ukraine, and you fucking know it.

 

[Lord Sovereign]

We aren't going to fight a war with Russia over Ukraine, that is the long and short of it.

No one is asking you to.

And this sort of myopic rhetoric has lead the Russians to think you’re about to throw the Ukrainians under the bus, therefore the attack must be pressed.

 

[Zachowon]

A desire not to get nuked, as well as a frankly anemic naval situation outside some of their subs.

I mean if Russia decides to make a go at Alaska or move on the Baltics why the CCP go after Taiwan, then it is only a short step up the escalation ladder to nukes, and the fight with the CCP over Taiwan is likely to escalate to nukes as well, if it drags on too long.

Frankly I'm expect that tactical nukes will come into play in the next few years, if the CCP isn't stopped before establishing a foothold on Taiwan itself.

I don't expect tactical nukes to be deployed at all, mainly due to outside of Russia mobile launchers, and how small of an island Taiwan is, it would not be a good choice as they wouldn't be able to get a tactical nuke through any kind of AD or AS environment.

They invaded Ukraine because they knew the west wouldn't use nukes.
Why would the west use nukes if they helped China?

Nothing we have seen indicates we would use nukes if Russia helps China, which they will

 

[Runforthehills]

I don't expect tactical nukes to be deployed at all, mainly due to outside of Russia mobile launchers, and how small of an island Taiwan is, it would not be a good choice as they wouldn't be able to get a tactical nuke through any kind of AD or AS environment.

They invaded Ukraine because they knew the west wouldn't use nukes.
Why would the west use nukes if they helped China?

Nothing we have seen indicates we would use nukes if Russia helps China, which they will

I mean, by the nature of missiles, at least one has to get through, especially if the ones they are using are legitimate ballistic missiles or the like

 

[Zachowon]

I mean, by the nature of missiles, at least one has to get through, especially if the ones they are using are legitimate ballistic missiles or the like

For tactical nukes, not so much as they are easier to intercept then ICBMs

 

[Runforthehills]

For tactical nukes, not so much as they are easier to intercept then ICBMs

What would Russia and China realistically be firing them from? Cruise missiles, MRBMs?

 

[Marduk]

No, you fucking moron, my world views are formed from my own opinions, what I have experienced, and what I have seen in my life.


But nothing outside your narrow world view is legit and self-formed opinions, because Marduk all kjnowing and all mighty knows all, sees all, and pretends anyone who doesn't agree with you is because of 'demoralization', 'Russian psy-ops', and 'peaceniks shitlibs'.

Yes, you arrogant retard, just because you think they are, that doesn't hide the fact that they correlate nicely with certain hard pushed narratives in certain media that really like such emotional diarrhea.

You are exactly the type of European that has driven away so much of the US from caring about Europe.

I thought it was the elitist eurosocialists who thought it was end of history and no one needs militaries anymore, but oh well, Bacle is on the shitting on le evul neocon warmongers streak now so its different.

You are not right about everything, and just because someone has a different view than you, doesn't make those views or concerns invalid.

Perhaps. But i'm more right about this than you ever were. By simple logic most people's "different views" on most issues have to be wrong because they can't all be right at the same time. And historically anything resembling what i call "peacenik views" was always shown to be extremely, comically, mind numbingly wrong in the end.

You have always treated anyone with different views than your as someone to be insulted and belittled, on damn near every subject, and think spaghetti posting those insults and and belittling somehow makes them more legit, rather than just make people stop engaging with you because you will try to nitpick and dismiss anything and everything that doesn't agree with your world view.

Well if "nitpicking" doesn't work and is ignored and people think repeating bullshit is a valid counter to it, then what else am i supposed to do? Attack the facts? Whatever, that's "nitpicking". Are implying i shouldn't be arguing for my views in general, because i guess it makes it hard for you do defend your own? Now i'm going to give you a piece of shocking and mind blowing news - people argue for their world views on the internet (and in general) to convert people with different ones to their own! If i liked someone's views better than my own i would have adopted them for my own.
WTF is this "sun shines, sky is blue, water is wet" equivalent line of argument supposed to mean anyway?

Oh please, 'only thing Russia understands is a clenched fist' is very much talking about at least threatening war with Russia over Ukraine, and you fucking know it.

With mind reading talents like that available winning wars should be no problem for America. Jedi have nothing on this shit. Except a 3 digit IQ maybe.

 

[Zachowon]

What would Russia and China realistically be firing them from? Cruise missiles, MRBMs?

Cruise missiles make most sense. And again easy to intercept

 

[The Whispering Monk]

Nothing we have seen indicates we would use nukes if Russia helps China, which they will

In what way are you imagining that Russia will step up to assist China in a conflict with the USA?

 

[RenegadeInterrupt]

In what way are you imagining that Russia will step up to assist China in a conflict with the USA?

The only way I could see Russia and the U.S. getting into a conflict is if a Democrat gets back into the White House any time soon.

 

[Marduk]

In what way are you imagining that Russia will step up to assist China in a conflict with the USA?

Russia has oil and lots of other resources. Exactly the kind of thing China needs to wage a long lasting war and would be getting intercepted by US and allied navies if it had to be shipped to them by sea, which unlike many alternative sources Russia can supply by land.

 

[Zachowon]

In what way are you imagining that Russia will step up to assist China in a conflict with the USA?

Every possible, if they aren't focused on Ukraine.
Fighters, supplies, raw materials.
Won't be free but they will profit off of it.
Add in training, the most valuable of it all.
They have the most LSCO experienced military force in the world next to Ukraine.
They will have a more trained military thanks to Russia, especially if Ukraine loses, and we would lose any and all experience we could gain (at a certain level, we still are more capable, but the Russians know best how to missile spam at this point)

That's how.

The only way I could see Russia and the U.S. getting into a conflict is if a Democrat gets back into the White House any time soon.

Russia is undermining Trump on purpose because they see us as weak

 

[Bacle]

No one is asking you to.

Marduk sure seems to be asking for that.

And this sort of myopic rhetoric has lead the Russians to think you’re about to throw the Ukrainians under the bus, therefore the attack must be pressed.

Then ask Marduk why he acts like the US going to war against Russia over Ukraine is the course of action he seems to want to see, and insults nearly any idea that doesn't effectively result in the US going to war with Russia over Ukraine.

He is very much part of the reason it feels like some in Europe won't be happy till the US goes to war with Russia over Ukraine.

And threatening Russia with war, to try to get them to back off Ukraine, is not going to be accepted by much of the US populace.

The US public isn't interesting threatening Russia with a clenched fist, as you put it.

I don't expect tactical nukes to be deployed at all, mainly due to outside of Russia mobile launchers, and how small of an island Taiwan is, it would not be a good choice as they wouldn't be able to get a tactical nuke through any kind of AD or AS environment.

They invaded Ukraine because they knew the west wouldn't use nukes.
Why would the west use nukes if they helped China?

Nothing we have seen indicates we would use nukes if Russia helps China, which they will

Russia helping the CCP with Taiwan was not really how you framed that, it was more along the lines of Russia using the CCP attack on Taiwan as a good distraction for their own moves.

If you meant what you said as the Russians helping the CCP, instead of making their own go for something with the CCP actions as a distraction, then that was not clear in what you posted.

 

[Zachowon]

Marduk sure seems to be asking for that.

Then ask Marduk why he acts like the US going to war against Russia over Ukraine is the course of action he seems to want to see, and insults nearly any idea that doesn't effectively result in the US going to war with Russia over Ukraine.

He is very much part of the reason it feels like some in Europe won't be happy till the US goes to war with Russia over Ukraine.

And threatening Russia with war, to try to get them to back off Ukraine, is not going to be accepted by much of the US populace.

The US public isn't interesting threatening Russia with a clenched fist, as you put it.

Russia helping the CCP with Taiwan was not really how you framed that, it was more along the lines of Russia using the CCP attack on Taiwan as a good distraction for their own moves.

If you meant what you said as the Russians helping the CCP, instead of making their own go for something with the CCP actions as a distraction, then that was not clear in what you posted.

It can be a bit of both, dep3nding heavily on posture of forces in Europe and posture of Ukraine.
Of they have Ukraine expect more involvement as well as potential push themselves.
If they don't, expect involment as a way to make money

 

[Runforthehills]

Cruise missiles make most sense. And again easy to intercept

Ah, understood

 

[Marduk]

Marduk sure seems to be asking for that.

Bacle sure seems married to his pet false dichotomy of "either we cuck out in a cloud of bullshit peacenik rhetoric, or have a presumably nuclear war with Russia, and out of these two being cowardly useful idiots is the less bad option".
Which would be a completely reasonable choice to make... if only that dichotomy was not false and ignored the existence of several options with many more detailed variations in between because arguing against those options makes defending peacenik rhetoric much harder than the above.
Like, for example, dusting off all the tried and true ways to fuck with a hostile nuclear power and get away with it tested by all factions of the Cold War, possibly inventing few new ones on top of that (like they are doing since quite some time anyway), and practicing all that distilled dickery on Russia indefinitely, because you can rest assured they (and China, and Iran too) will do the same regardless of whether we retaliate in kind or not.

He is very much part of the reason it feels like some in Europe won't be happy till the US goes to war with Russia over Ukraine.

Europe was mostly happy with what USA was doing regarding that in the past, and would be completely happy with some minor adjustments to that. Please recalibrate your feelings back to some semblance of reality.

And threatening Russia with war, to try to get them to back off Ukraine, is not going to be accepted by much of the US populace.

The US public isn't interesting threatening Russia with a clenched fist, as you put it.

You say threatening Russia with war over Ukraine is too much for US populace, which is not even necessary, yet also want everyone to believe the same will not just threaten China with war over Taiwan but actually go through with it, when more than mere threats will be in fact necessary? If that line of thought turns out to get pushed through the US court politics, i guess start getting comfortable with massive nuclear proliferation in the next few decades.
Any reason (leaving aside the stupidity of such reasons and excuses for a moment) to not be willing to threaten Russia with a clenched fist will apply at least as much to China - which also is a nuclear power, but on top of that, unlike Russia, is also a meaningful conventional military and economic rival to USA.

 

[Bacle]

Trump's drive to decrease oil prices globally is hurting Russia/Putin in their revenue streams and pocket books.

Russia/Putin may have to accept a peace deal, if the price of oil goes down and stays down, because without high oil prices, Russian petro industry becomes unprofitable and unable to fund both social programs and the war effort.

Edit: Cheap oil also helps the US domestic situation a lot, and will help make good cheaper over all for most nations, so it hurts Russia while very much helping most everyone else.

 

[mrttao]

And what make you think Russia won't fight us when we fight China?

China has backstabbed russia pretty hard during this conflict.
I don't see Putin going out to bat for China for no benefit to himself.