Russia(gate/bot) Russia-Ukraine War Political Discussion

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Bacle

When the effort is no longer profitable...
Founder
thing is history shows that its often hilariously lethal to under estimate the Russians.

They might be a degraded power but you shouldn't count them out until their actually out.
Second Baltic Squadron and Winter War show how to beat the Russians, and how stupidly run many Russian military endeavors are.

Russian history is rife with being willing to throw bodies at problems. However demographic decline and economic isolation mean the industry and birthrates that made such tactics work for Russia before no longer hold true, and modern logistics is a far different beast than what Russia is used to.

Having to lean on Iran and North Korea for so much shows just how much of the knowledge and production base Russia inherited from the USSR no longer meaningfully exists in Russia itself.

Being willing to throw bodies at a problem doesn't achieve what it used to, and Russia hasn't learned that lesson yet, but will by the time it is forced from Ukraine's 1991 borders.

If parts of the west weren't trying for 'slow victory' model, the west would be moving weapons into Ukraine just as fast as they can be made, and Ukrainian troops trained on them.
 

King Arts

Well-known member
I understand that Agent23 is personally monetarily invested in Russia, and that History Learner is actually clinically insane.

I even have some sympathy for people who want America to not be sending its treasure to support the war for various reasons, even if I think it is misguided.

You though, I have no idea why you have chosen to buy whole-heartedly into Russian propaganda.

Are you Russian yourself?

Do you have so little idea how war works that you do not understand that the conditions on the ground are, at best for the Russians, a stalemate?

Is it something else?

Why do you think Russia is winning when it hasn't made any substantial gains since... what, about this time last year, while suffering multiple serious reversals?
Is history learned really insane?
 

LordsFire

Internet Wizard
Is history learned really insane?
That's not a professional diagnosis, but the sheer level of warped perspective he demonstrates is pretty clear.

Like you. I think you're wrong about almost everything on politics, but you have some semblance of internal consistency to your thought, and are capable of recognizing something is literally physically true.

Terthna, I disagree with about what happened in Ukraine in 2014, and he is more distrustful of the Ukrainian government than I am, but he still recognizes the war is a horrible thing, and Russia has committed atrocities during it.

But History Learner?

He will reference one image on Twitter from a year or two ago that claims Ukraine was producing millions of artillery shells for Russia, and claim it's definitive proof that Russian military industrial capacity utterly overwhelms not just Ukraine's, but also the West's.

Yes, that's right, he will quote that Ukrainian industry that used to supply the Russians, is proof that current Russian industrial capacity outstrips Ukrainian capacity.

He is a very clear case of the thought process where once he's made up his mind, all data, information, references, sources, etc, will be interpreted in as warped a way as necessary to support that conclusion. If a source supports his conclusion, it's good. If it doesn't, it's bad. If it says things that partially support and partially oppose it, then it's a definitive trustworthy source in one part, and utterly untrustworthy deceit in the other.

Further, he kept coming back and humiliating himself with shit arguments month after month after month, and treating past rounds of argument about Ukraine that he'd lost like arguments he'd won. When people pointed out he was full of shit, he'd bring up the exact same articles and talking points he had before, and people would point out that even his own sources contradicted his points a lot of the time, and he'd just ignore that.

It's fairly clear that at some point Agent23 just is trying to amuse himself by poking others. Some people, like me, have a harder time letting go of arguments on the internet than we should. Some people, like Marduk, are just implacable and will hammer you with the same points and arguments over and over again because they don't know any other way to be.

But History Learner, his behavior was pathological. To the level where I'm genuinely worried about his mental health, and suspect he has a serious habit of sabotaging his own IRL relationships, and his periodically returning to this forum in spates of activity is related to him burning out his IRL relationships for a while.

It's hard enough to deal with someone who absolutely refuses to admit they're wrong. People who will actively warp their perception of reality to service their wrong conclusions, who will unflinchingly step further and further into self-delusion every time evidence piles up that they're wrong?

They aren't just hard to deal with, they're outright dangerous. And usually come to tragic ends, often total social isolation and living in a proverbial basement as they concoct more and more elaborate conspiracy theories rather than admit they were ever wrong about anything.
 

Husky_Khan

The Dog Whistler... I mean Whisperer.
Founder
BTW - as I have him (?) on ignore - is History Learner still with us?

He shows up every few weeks like a Russian missile barrage, posts large amounts of invective and walls of quoted text at least fifty times through the night, mostly in response to discussions long past, then vanishes once again.

Behavior indicates a disaffected college student. They all have mental health issues. Many of us know this firsthand. :p
 

ATP

Well-known member
I understand that Agent23 is personally monetarily invested in Russia, and that History Learner is actually clinically insane.

I even have some sympathy for people who want America to not be sending its treasure to support the war for various reasons, even if I think it is misguided.

You though, I have no idea why you have chosen to buy whole-heartedly into Russian propaganda.

Are you Russian yourself?

Do you have so little idea how war works that you do not understand that the conditions on the ground are, at best for the Russians, a stalemate?

Is it something else?

Why do you think Russia is winning when it hasn't made any substantial gains since... what, about this time last year, while suffering multiple serious reversals?
Mostly true,with one mistake - @Agent23 is from Bulgary,and average people there need to belive in good Mother Russia which save them from bad turks.
I undarstandt that,average poles belive in good USA which save us,which is even more stupid.

never underestimate how many bodies they are willing to throw at a problem till it goes away.

Yep.But,their human population is much smaller and in worst shape.According to what i read,25% of potential recruits are not russians,and another 10% or more unable to serve even as cannon fodder becouse of vodka.

So,they could not send 20 millions to death and win,only,let say,5 millions.
 

Agent23

Ни шагу назад!
Mostly true,with one mistake - @Agent23 is from Bulgary,and average people there need to belive in good Mother Russia which save them from bad turks.
I undarstandt that,average poles belive in good USA which save us,which is even more stupid.
Oh, so it was that sanctimonious prick LordsFire spewing nonsense about me being invested in Russia despite me explaining it is not the case and I am worried about my country's situation and the EU as a whole, and not that other guy with the horse avatar?

Guess I owe whoever that other guy was an apology, but that is what they get for having the same ugly color scheme on their avatars, oops...

As to Russia, well most of the time we have had good relations with them and culturally they are very similar, starting when Kievan Rus adopted the Cyrillic from us and there are even some theories about that Olga of Kiev was the granddaughter of Boris I.

Also, there is the elephant in the room, which is that the EU/NATO is supporting a shithole that has very little to offer us other than paid votes for the Eurocracy in Brussels and its constant expansion, and cheap labor for Western Europe and more protected markets for the Germans.
While at the same time wrecking our relations with the Russians and limiting the EU's access to Russian resources and markets.

We damaged our entire economy because of this shit, we are de-industrializing and the USA is eating our lunch.

Yep.But,their human population is much smaller and in worst shape.According to what i read,25% of potential recruits are not russians,and another 10% or more unable to serve even as cannon fodder becouse of vodka.

So,they could not send 20 millions to death and win,only,let say,5 millions.
I am pretty sure that the same problems Russia has had with demographics are valid for Ukraine, and tens of millions of "Ukraininas" are no longer draft-able by the Kiev regime.
 

ATP

Well-known member
Oh, so it was that sanctimonious prick LordsFire spewing nonsense about me being invested in Russia despite me explaining it is not the case and I am worried about my country's situation and the EU as a whole, and not that other guy with the horse avatar?

Guess I owe whoever that other guy was an apology, but that is what they get for having the same ugly color scheme on their avatars, oops...

As to Russia, well most of the time we have had good relations with them and culturally they are very similar, starting when Kievan Rus adopted the Cyrillic from us and there are even some theories about that Olga of Kiev was the granddaughter of Boris I.

Also, there is the elephant in the room, which is that the EU/NATO is supporting a shithole that has very little to offer us other than paid votes for the Eurocracy in Brussels and its constant expansion, and cheap labor for Western Europe and more protected markets for the Germans.
While at the same time wrecking our relations with the Russians and limiting the EU's access to Russian resources and markets.

We damaged our entire economy because of this shit, we are de-industrializing and the USA is eating our lunch.


I am pretty sure that the same problems Russia has had with demographics are valid for Ukraine, and tens of millions of "Ukraininas" are no longer draft-able by the Kiev regime.
1.Yes,average bulgarian remember how Russia helped them.
Problem is - RUSSIA WAS MURDERED BY SOVIETS.100 years ago.So,it would not help you,and you are supporting kgb dudes,whose ancestors helped kill Russia.

And,that is what you forget.Bit,since average poles belive in good helping USA,you are forgiven - we are al least as stupid as you as nations.
Ukraine as market for germans - sadly true.

2.Not exactly.They do not have 25% of minorities,and popuation is more healthy.Moreover,their commanders use their brains.
 

Agent23

Ни шагу назад!
1.Yes,average bulgarian remember how Russia helped them.
Problem is - RUSSIA WAS MURDERED BY SOVIETS.100 years ago.So,it would not help you,and you are supporting kgb dudes,whose ancestors helped kill Russia.
Russia was not murdered, just like Bulgaria was not murdered, hit on the head and comatose for decades - maybe.
But in both places we have nationalist people who are proud of their pre-Commie culture and heritage.
And,that is what you forget.Bit,since average poles belive in good helping USA,you are forgiven - we are al least as stupid as you as nations.
I believed in a good USA as well, then I saw how it has degenerated and strayed from what it actually made it a great country once upon a time.
Ukraine as market for germans - sadly true.
Market, votes for the Eurocracy, a way to keep the rest of eastern Europe poor by constantly adding cheap labor and keeping the infighting in the EU going on.
And somebody needs to doll out more Eurohandoute, too.
2.Not exactly.They do not have 25% of minorities,and popuation is more healthy.
Huge numbers of Russians, Belarussians, maybe ethnic Poles, Hungarians and even a decent sized Bulgarian community bef to differ, and we have had huge outflows from it to the tune of over ten million.
Moreover,their commanders use their brains.
Yeah, press F to doubt.
 

ATP

Well-known member
Russia was not murdered, just like Bulgaria was not murdered, hit on the head and comatose for decades - maybe.
But in both places we have nationalist people who are proud of their pre-Commie culture and heritage.

I believed in a good USA as well, then I saw how it has degenerated and strayed from what it actually made it a great country once upon a time.

Market, votes for the Eurocracy, a way to keep the rest of eastern Europe poor by constantly adding cheap labor and keeping the infighting in the EU going on.
And somebody needs to doll out more Eurohandoute, too.

Huge numbers of Russians, Belarussians, maybe ethnic Poles, Hungarians and even a decent sized Bulgarian community bef to differ, and we have had huge outflows from it to the tune of over ten million.

Yeah, press F to doubt.
Your and mine country survived,becouse :
1.We were under commies 44,not 71 years,so there was still normal generation alive
1.2.Compared to soviets,we,and even you,were treted in kid gloves.Nobody killed 10-30% of popuation and send 20% or more to gulags/not at the same time,of course/
If we were treated just like russians,there would be no more poles,too.

2.Republic was once great - but average poles still belive that creatures like Biden would save us.Which is as silly as beliving that kgb are russians.

3.All true.


4.Maybe 10% could be named as minorities there.

5.Do you see any geniuses like Szojgu or Gierasimov in Ukrainian army? no? i though so.
 

Agent23

Ни шагу назад!
Your and mine country survived,becouse :
1.We were under commies 44,not 71 years,so there was still normal generation alive
1.2.Compared to soviets,we,and even you,were treted in kid gloves.Nobody killed 10-30% of popuation and send 20% or more to gulags/not at the same time,of course/
If we were treated just like russians,there would be no more poles,too.
My people survived 500 years under the Turks and 200 under Byzantium, I don't think you give ethnic and cultural nationalism enough credit.
Even the Commies had to pivot to try and use it because their theories DID NOT AND WILL NEVER, WORK.

As to the kit gloves, well tell that to my great grandfather, and the grandfathers of a few of my friends who were tortured, robbed, unpersoned and killed by the commies.
2.Republic was once great - but average poles still belive that creatures like Biden would save us.Which is as silly as beliving that kgb are russians.
Yup, republic, not democracy or an empire, with a mostly culturally and enthnicly and ideologically homogenous anglo/protestant population made up of yeomen farmers and small and medium sized entrepreneurs.
3.All true.
Good we agree on stuff.
4.Maybe 10% could be named as minorities there.
s9kscqarebz01.jpg

5.Do you see any geniuses like Szojgu or Gierasimov in Ukrainian army? no? i though so.
I dunno, those docs from the USA that leaked are quite damning.
What was it, 7 to 1 in favor of the Russians?
 

ATP

Well-known member
My people survived 500 years under the Turks and 200 under Byzantium, I don't think you give ethnic and cultural nationalism enough credit.
Even the Commies had to pivot to try and use it because their theories DID NOT AND WILL NEVER, WORK.

As to the kit gloves, well tell that to my great grandfather, and the grandfathers of a few of my friends who were tortured, robbed, unpersoned and killed by the commies.

Yup, republic, not democracy or an empire, with a mostly culturally and enthnicly and ideologically homogenous anglo/protestant population made up of yeomen farmers and small and medium sized entrepreneurs.

Good we agree on stuff.

s9kscqarebz01.jpg


I dunno, those docs from the USA that leaked are quite damning.
What was it, 7 to 1 in favor of the Russians?
1.Both Byzantinum and Ottomans let people be themselves as long as they pay taxes and do not rebel.
Soviets tried to turn locals into soviets.
In our case they have 44 years and use kid gloves,so we survived.
In Russia case,they have 71 years and genocided 10-30% of population.More importantly,destroyed families,making children spy on their parents.
That is why there is no mor russians.
Do not feel better then them - we would cease to exist,too,if sometching like that would be done to us.

2.All true,but most poles belive that current USA is Republic.Just like most bulgars,like you,belive that long dead Russia still exist.

3. 2+2=22 ?

4.Ukrainians speaking russians are still not russians.Minorites there would be poles,hungarians,and hucuł.

5.7:1 ? then ukrainian army should not exist arleady,becouse kgbstan lost at least 100.000.
 

Marduk

Well-known member
Moderator
Staff Member
4.Ukrainians speaking russians are still not russians.Minorites there would be poles,hungarians,and hucuł.
This is a fucking idiotic point people bring up in the situation of Ukraine while obviously it's not the only case in the world where people who speak the same language absolutely do not consider themselves the same nation nor want to share a country. The Irish speak the same language as UK, does that mean they are ok with being ruled by it? Americans, India and half of Africa too while at it?
 

Agent23

Ни шагу назад!
This is a fucking idiotic point people bring up in the situation of Ukraine while obviously it's not the only case in the world where people who speak the same language absolutely do not consider themselves the same nation nor want to share a country. The Irish speak the same language as UK, does that mean they are ok with being ruled by it? Americans, India and half of Africa too while at it?
And a lot of those "Russian speakers" are orthodox, you know, the same orthodox church your favorite Atheist of Jewish extraction's buddies ban and repress...

...and they voted for the pro-Russian or peo-regional authority candidates, like, consistently...
 
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