Russia(gate/bot) Russia-Ukraine War Political Discussion

[mrttao]

I mean, one could hope this would make your average German realize that listening to the Greens and the likes of Merkle was a mistake, and that they should have listened to Trump instead of laughing at him, but I doubt that'll happen.

It is my hope that it would. Of course, how much actual control german poors have over their government is... well, very slim.

See? Look at this shit. You couldn't be more transparent.

I should clarify things.

This is not about me and whether or not I am in favor of russia.
This is about analyzing this


Where "official sources" say that germany is packed full of "pro-russian organizations", implying russian spies.

I have been positing that... the reason germany has way way way more "pro russian" sentiment is that the german government had the brilliant idea that the way they should aid nato against putin is to cut off natural gas supply for the german people... after they had destroyed better ways of heating your house in the winter in germany.

In germany in particular it looks like most of this support appears to be green colored. indicated "churches". you know, places where poor working men congregate.

My own position is irrelevant here. Is my hypothesis on why the germans are allegedly more in favor russia correct or not?

And furthermore, could the german government have found some other way to support ukraine that was more palettable to their serfs?

You meant to attack me, but the way you phrased it... is that the alternative to cutting natural gas for the german poor is to let russia win. As if freezing the german poor was some sort of an "essential sacrifice"

 

[Captain X]

Russia was going to cut Germany off unless it literally did nothing.

 

[mrttao]

Russia was going to cut Germany off unless it literally did nothing.

So Russia was going to sanction itself?
And the german govt was trying to help Putin by taking on the ire of the german people on themselves instead of letting it fall on putin?

This still doesn't answer why, allegedly, a massive number of german churches are "pro russia" according to journalists.
What is your hypothesis here?

 

[Captain X]

So Russia was going to sanction itself?

Again, the hell are you even talking about? This whole time you've been doompilling over Russia cutting off Germany over its support of Ukraine.

This still doesn't answer why, allegedly, a massive number of german churches are "pro russia" according to journalists.
What is your hypothesis here?

Well, there are two possible answers, both of which could be true. One is that they actually are pro-Russia, at least to the extent that people like yourself are, which is to say out of a knee-jerk reaction to "Globo-Homo" being anti-Russia and pro-Ukraine. The other is that they aren't pro-Russia but are anti-their own government for setting them up the way they have by listening to the greens, and the media is just lying about them the way they lie about anyone who is in any way opposed to the government or something it is doing. Or, you know, both.

 

[mrttao]

Again, the hell are you even talking about? This whole time you've been doompilling over Russia cutting off Germany over its support of Ukraine.

Russia didn't cut off germany.
Germany's government cut off germany's import of natural gas from russia. As part of their sanctions package. "we are no longer going to buy your products. even though our poor really really need it. because we destroyed our energy sector".
Then USA blew up the pipeline to make sure the german govt won't get second thoughts.

Well, there are two possible answers, both of which could be true. One is that they actually are pro-Russia, at least to the extent that people like yourself are, which is to say out of a knee-jerk reaction to "Globo-Homo" being anti-Russia and pro-Ukraine. The other is that they aren't pro-Russia but are anti-their own government for setting them up the way they have by listening to the greens, and the media is just lying about them the way they lie about anyone who is in any way opposed to the government or something it is doing. Or, you know, both.

It is a good opportunity for them to start purges of anti current government elements. on the spurious claim that they are "pro russia".

 

[Captain X]

Russia didn't cut off germany.
Germany's government cut off germany's import of natural gas from russia. As part of their sanctions package. "we are no longer going to buy your products. even though our poor really really need it. because we destroyed our energy sector".

Do you imagine that Russia wasn't going to cut them off when they were literally giving weapons and ammo to Ukraine?

Then USA blew up the pipeline to make sure the german govt won't get second thoughts.

Maybe. I have yet to see any kind of proof on that beyond a dementia patient's ramblings. I'll also not forget how y'all went from obsessing with a ship to obsessing with a plane over that matter.

It is a good opportunity for them to start purges of anti current government elements. on the spurious claim that they are "pro russia".

And? Have you seen what's going on in the Netherlands lately? Am I supposed to somehow come out in support of Russia now?

 

[mrttao]

Do you imagine that Russia wasn't going to cut them off when they were literally giving weapons and ammo to Ukraine?

You are doubling down on it being the german govt doing putin a favor by sparing him the backlash. Instead of waiting for putin to cut them off, they cut themselves off so that their citizens would be angry at them and not at putin.

Putin would have threatened it, certainly. But considering how wrecked Russia capabilities are there is high likelihood he would have continued to trade with germany even while they supply ukraine.

And if Putin did cut germany off, then the german govt would have faced less backlash

And? Have you seen what's going on in the Netherlands lately? Am I supposed to somehow come out in support of Russia now?

facepalm. jesus fuck man.
you have got it firmly into your jingoist neocon mind that I am ENEMY and thus literally every single word I say must be "in support of Putin."

I was literally just saying that your hypothesis that the news is lying about those germans supporting putin is reasonable.
And extrapolating from said hypothesis that the reason why they would lie about the pop supporting putin is so that they could arrest anti govt people on made up espionage charges.

You thinking that was trying to convince you you to support Putin is ridiculous.
How does A flow from B? The two statements are completely unrelated.

 

[Captain X]

You are doubling down on it being the german govt doing putin a favor by sparing him the backlash. Instead of waiting for putin to cut them off, they cut themselves off so that their citizens would be angry at them and not at putin.

No, I merely outline reality.

Putin would have threatened it, certainly. But considering how wrecked Russia capabilities are there is high likelihood he would have continued to trade with germany even while they supply ukraine.

facepalm. jesus fuck man.
you have got it firmly into your jingoist neocon mind that I am ENEMY and thus literally every single word I say must be "in support of Putin."

You think I'm a neocon? Bwahahahahahaha! As far as why I catalog you as a Putin-supporter, I mean...

You know... at the very start I wanted putin to win just because those lining up to defeat him are our oppressors.
But I am really coming around to this way of doing things too.

Not to mention that you've been doom-posting all along about how opposing Russia has been a mistake.

I was literally just saying that your hypothesis that the news is lying about those germans supporting putin is reasonable.
And extrapolating from said hypothesis that the reason why they would lie about the pop supporting putin is so that they could arrest anti govt people on made up espionage charges.

You thinking that was trying to convince you you to support Putin is ridiculous.
How does A flow from B? The two statements are completely unrelated.

Because you have been supporting Putin and Russia, apparently just on the kneejerk rationale of them opposing our own government. But let's hear it from you. Stop dancing around and get to your point already.

 

[mrttao]

You think I'm a neocon? Bwahahahahahaha! As far as why I catalog you as a Putin-supporter, I mean...

I literally agreed with you on something. This was your response:

Am I supposed to somehow come out in support of Russia now?

You are like that crazy woman who attacked a black man while yelling black lives matter.

At this point your brain has been shut down and you are just throwing a tantrum on autopilot. Your posts are literally incoherent nonsense at this point

Spoiler: related

 

[ATP]

So Russia was going to sanction itself?
And the german govt was trying to help Putin by taking on the ire of the german people on themselves instead of letting it fall on putin?

This still doesn't answer why, allegedly, a massive number of german churches are "pro russia" according to journalists.
What is your hypothesis here?

Basically,yes.They bevhave as cartoon villain without power to back it.
And,german elites had WERY GOOD plan to control Europe through Moscov oil,but postsoviets fucked it.
Problem is - german elites never have B plan,so they try to made deal with kgbstan again.
Which would work,when some kgb officer kill putin.

Again, the hell are you even talking about? This whole time you've been doompilling over Russia cutting off Germany over its support of Ukraine.


Well, there are two possible answers, both of which could be true. One is that they actually are pro-Russia, at least to the extent that people like yourself are, which is to say out of a knee-jerk reaction to "Globo-Homo" being anti-Russia and pro-Ukraine. The other is that they aren't pro-Russia but are anti-their own government for setting them up the way they have by listening to the greens, and the media is just lying about them the way they lie about anyone who is in any way opposed to the government or something it is doing. Or, you know, both.

1.Entire time,german elites still help Moscov.
2.German people could feel whatever they like,german elites would not hear it anyway.It always worked in Germany - till it stop working,like in 1918.
Interesting,what would happen now?

 

[Marduk]

I have been positing that... the reason germany has way way way more "pro russian" sentiment is that the german government had the brilliant idea that the way they should aid nato against putin is to cut off natural gas supply for the german people... after they had destroyed better ways of heating your house in the winter in germany.

Umm, you are very much trying to put the wagon before the horse here, multiple times.
The German government are the not exactly the biggest fans of the harsh sanctions, they are getting politically pressured by many other countries to adhere to these sanctions regardless.
The sympathy obviously also didn't suddenly come out of the energy issues during the last year, it was there since a loooong time, and is a necessary reason why the government was allowed to get so reliant on Russian gas in the first place, if anything, it has probably fallen since the beginning of the war.
What Germany really needs is to get its convictions and priorities in line with each other, make some choices there, and also in line with the reality they turned out to be wrong about and now live in by surprise. For example, about whether setting up an artificially gas intensive energy sector for the sake of virtue signalling to the world with lowering CO2 numbers is really worth geopolitical compromises with Russia and geopolitical disagreements with those who don't want such.

 

[ATP]

Umm, you are very much trying to put the wagon before the horse here, multiple times.
The German government are the not exactly the biggest fans of the harsh sanctions, they are getting politically pressured by many other countries to adhere to these sanctions regardless.
The sympathy obviously also didn't suddenly come out of the energy issues during the last year, it was there since a loooong time, and is a necessary reason why the government was allowed to get so reliant on Russian gas in the first place, if anything, it has probably fallen since the beginning of the war.
What Germany really needs is to get its convictions and priorities in line with each other, make some choices there, and also in line with the reality they turned out to be wrong about and now live in by surprise. For example, about whether setting up an artificially gas intensive energy sector for the sake of virtue signalling to the world with lowering CO2 numbers is really worth geopolitical compromises with Russia and geopolitical disagreements with those who don't want such.

Yes,they saved soviets after 1970 with their technology making pipelines with oil for them.Without that,soviets would fall about 1980.
And,another german problem - they still think,that old Russia ruled by german tsars still exist,and that they could made Partition of Poland and co- rule Europe after that.
Unfortunatelly for them,all they get are postsoviets ruled by KGB mafias.Which would backstab them if their plan succed.

So,no matter what happen to us,there would be no happy end for germans.

 

[Captain X]

I literally agreed with you on something. This was your response:

You are like that crazy woman who attacked a black man while yelling black lives matter.

At this point your brain has been shut down and you are just throwing a tantrum on autopilot. Your posts are literally incoherent nonsense at this point

No, now you're just desperately dancing around because I called you out on your doomposting, for which you have no real response. You keep deflecting and dancing around in circles because you know it makes you look like an ass to admit that you've let yourself be led around by a kneejerk reaction of "Democrats hate Russia and like Ukraine, therefore Russia good, Ukraine bad." That's certainly the impression you've been leaving with the kind of crap you've been posting since before this invasion ever began.

 

[mrttao]

Basically,yes.They bevhave as cartoon villain without power to back it.

Then the german government are idiots. who should have let putin do it and thus shift the ire to him instead of them
As it stands. they did him a favor

 

[ATP]

Then the german government are idiots. who should have let putin do it and thus shift the ire to him instead of them
As it stands. they did him a favor

No,no idiots.Typical Berlin elites,which have decent plan A,but when it is fucked/in that case,not by them/ they do not have plan B and stick to dead plan A.
Not their fault,really - they simply copy Frederick,who win 7th year war this way.If he could be saved by miracle of Hause Hohenzollern,then why not them?

We,people,are not logical creatures - we react according to models created in our societes.German elites react according to old prussian rules,that is all.

 

[Largo]

The US didn't have conscription due to some lack of volunteers. It was because there was no capacity to handle the inevitable flood of volunteers. Instead of just trying to train millions of men right away (who may be needed for other things on the homefront anyways), you use conscription to ensure that you have a steady supply of soldiers that you can handle.

Go look at the opening days of the Civil War and what a chaotic mess the Union Army had in learning how to fight. Only a fool thinks "Yeah, we should replicate that every single time we go to war."

Never mind that letting Stalin have the weaker half of Europe is still better than letting him or Hitler having all of Europe.

 

[mrttao]

The US didn't have conscription due to some lack of volunteers. It was because there was no capacity to handle the inevitable flood of volunteers. Instead of just trying to train millions of men right away (who may be needed for other things on the homefront anyways), you use conscription to ensure that you have a steady supply of soldiers that you can handle.

This is bullshit.
If you have too many volunteers than you just collect their info and get back to them when they get randomly selected from amongst the volunteers. That is not conscription.

Conscription is when NON volunteers are forcibly recruited. Which is what the USA had actually done.
Also, USA still has it. The SSS registration is mandatory.

Your claim is not even internally logical. it is just "we had so many volunteers that we decided to decline them all and institute a non voluntary conscription". this is just ridiculous

 

[bintananth]

If you have too many volunteers than you just collect their info and get back to them when they get randomly selected from amongst the volunteers. That is not conscription.

That, or be picky based on what you need when selecting from the pool of volunteers.

There's also the half-assed approach to too many volunteers: "The books are full, no more men." - Lt. Bush, Hornblower: Loyalty

 

[ATP]

The US didn't have conscription due to some lack of volunteers. It was because there was no capacity to handle the inevitable flood of volunteers. Instead of just trying to train millions of men right away (who may be needed for other things on the homefront anyways), you use conscription to ensure that you have a steady supply of soldiers that you can handle.

Go look at the opening days of the Civil War and what a chaotic mess the Union Army had in learning how to fight. Only a fool thinks "Yeah, we should replicate that every single time we go to war."

Never mind that letting Stalin have the weaker half of Europe is still better than letting him or Hitler having all of Europe.

Letting sralin have any part of Europe was suicide.Becouse,after getting A bombs he would attack and get all.
Like he planned before his friends killed him.
If it was Hitler,you would be right - he wanted ONLY Europe.
But,sralin and other commies wanted entire Earth.Peope like them must be destroyed,or they destroy you.

 

[AmosTrask]

Letting sralin have any part of Europe was suicide.Becouse,after getting A bombs he would attack and get all.
Like he planned before his friends killed him.
If it was Hitler,you would be right - he wanted ONLY Europe.
But,sralin and other commies wanted entire Earth.Peope like them must be destroyed,or they destroy you.

No one expected the Soviets to gain the bomb. It was highly compartmentalized and separated to new built isolated secret cities with no outside contact. Old school racism at work. Slavs were brutish barely White men. Not even White to some Old Western European views of the era. They weren't smart or cunning enough to infiltrate the Ubermen of the USA