Russia-Ukraine War Political Discussion

[Cherico]

Honestly I think were at the stage where the west is collapsing into empire.

The same stage the roman republic found itself in after carthrage fell. Is it in our interest to have this empire?

Probally not, but I think european weakness will force the united states to come in and prop it up. I think that there will be repeated attempt from the americans to create systems of self rule which will well fail. And require us to prop them up more, I think we will fall into empire by accident much like the romans before us.

The alternative if the Russians had won would be a west dominated by Russia which would be worse.

 

[mrttao]

Honestly I think were at the stage where the west is collapsing into empire.

The same stage the roman republic found itself in after carthrage fell. Is it in our interest to have this empire?

Probally not, but I think european weakness will force the united states to come in and prop it up. I think that there will be repeated attempt from the americans to create systems of self rule which will well fail. And require us to prop them up more, I think we will fall into empire by accident much like the romans before us.

The alternative if the Russians had won would be a west dominated by Russia which would be worse.

It honestly looks like russia is going to get a pyrrhic victory.. then collapse.
while the entire western world and china just collapse due to failed policies.

So... I guess India will inherit the earth? maybe.

 

[Cherico]

It honestly looks like russia is going to get a pyrrhic victory.. then collapse.
while the entire western world and china just collapse due to failed policies.

So... I guess India will inherit the earth? maybe.

everything collapses in time but I am glad India is going to finally have a good decade vedic civilization is a worthy one.

 

[Sailor.X]

The US and by extension all countries on the North American continent will not collapse for the same reason we did not collapse during the Great Depression. We are very resource rich. Contrary to popular belief we have plenty of Rare Earths on the Continent. We also have vast Natural Gas and Oil Fields. Add in we have some of the most fertile soil on the planet. Gives us a leg up. Will we have a Recession or a Depression maybe. But collapse no not really. We will just innovate and use are assets to keep the Americas strong. Europe and the Old World will have to get by the best way they can or get with the New World area program.

 

[Bacle]

The US and by extension all countries on the North American continent will not collapse for the same reason we did not collapse during the Great Depression. We are very resource rich. Contrary to popular belief we have plenty of Rare Earths on the Continent. We also have vast Natural Gas and Oil Fields. Add in we have some of the most fertile soil on the planet. Gives us a leg up. Will we have a Recession or a Depression maybe. But collapse no not really. We will just innovate and use are assets to keep the Americas strong. Europe and the Old World will have to get by the best way they can or get with the New World area program.

People seriously underestimate the mineral wealth of Alaska, and how much stuff that state has that could allow the US to wean itself off other rare earth deposits.

Plus, I know of at least one major lithium deposit in the US that isn't being exploited because of the rad gear necessary to mine it. I've seen literal boulders of lithium ore left as tailings because the rad gear made it too expensive to mine the stuff commercially.

 

[LordsFire]

That's because conservatives stupidly went for the "small gubmit good" meme. We want a strong central state a powerful army, police, and intelligence service but it has to be staffed by loyal reliable people. The same for people in other positions of power. Saying that something is "illegitimate" then doing nothing when the other side fills it with wealth, weapons, legal authority is useless.

And this is the key area where your understanding fails.

The inherent nature of a powerful government means that it will always become corrupt. Power attracts the corrupt, and people in positions of power tend to become corrupt while they hold those positions of power. Part of the great wisdom of the founding fathers was in recognizing this, and trying to design a system made to resist it.

On top of this, how you expect to wrest control of the institutions that already exist from the left is not clear. Further, how you intend to keep them from taking it back is not clear.

Further beyond this, you show no comprehension of just how corrupt and destructive explicit state religions and churches have historically been demonstrated to be. Have a look at what the Anglican church is up to these days if you want a more modern example.

Finally:

What? What are you talking about how is modern conservativism in anyway biblical? Allowing the rich to do everything to sate their greed and follow mammon is against the Bible. If anything the Bible has things you would call socialist, first off it doesen't give rights let alone acknowledge the existance of corporations, second the poor were aloud the go to farms and literally graze and eat the fruits off it as much as they want. But what is most relavent to this discussion with debt. EVERY 40 YEARS THE YEAR OF JUBILEE WIPED OUT ALL DEBT. So please don't tell me your heretical protestant work ethic is the way Jesus, and God and the Israelites intended society to be run, when they used policies that if we implemented in the modern day you would piss and moan about being socialism.

Don't go putting words in my mouth, and going off on a screed like this on things you presume I do not understand, and positions you presume I hold, is constructive of nothing.

If you want to have a discussion on what the Bible, and particularly the New Testament, teaches about personal property, responsibility, and socialism, we can do that, but this isn't particularly the time or place. We're already getting derailed.

 

[Captain X]

Just because I might agree that there needs to be oversight for any aid sent to Ukraine because I know there are corrupt people running things who will take advantage, it does not follow that I will just throw my hands up in the air and say we should just allow Russia to take over Ukraine because that oversight did not materialize. Russia is still very much in the wrong, and I am still supportive of sending Ukraine aid so it can defend itself, even if I think that should have been limited to weapons, ammo, and equipment (and training if need be) and that isn't the case. I continue to be baffled why people are still bringing up talking points that even Putin himself has stopped bothering to use as excuses.

ETA: In other news...

Welp a catastrophic nuclear disaster in Europe looks just a bit more likely today than it did yesterday

As the old saying goes: This is not good, not good at all.

notthebee.com

Russia seems keen on unleashing yet another nuclear disaster on Ukraine and the rest of Eastern Europe.

 

[Bacle]

Just because I might agree that there needs to be oversight for any aid sent to Ukraine because I know there are corrupt people running things who will take advantage, it does not follow that I will just throw my hands up in the air and say we should just allow Russia to take over Ukraine because that oversight did not materialize. Russia is still very much in the wrong, and I am still supportive of sending Ukraine aid so it can defend itself, even if I think that should have been limited to weapons, ammo, and equipment (and training if need be) and that isn't the case. I continue to be baffled why people are still bringing up talking points that even Putin himself has stopped bothering to use as excuses.

ETA: In other news...

Welp a catastrophic nuclear disaster in Europe looks just a bit more likely today than it did yesterday

As the old saying goes: This is not good, not good at all.

notthebee.com

Russia seems keen on unleashing yet another nuclear disaster on Ukraine and the rest of Eastern Europe.

Russian nuclear terrorism is perhaps the biggets reason for international involvement in Ukraine; rads and their byproducts do not care for politics or ideology, they will fuck you up no matter who you support.

Chernobyl came damn close to poisoning the Black Sea, and by extension potentially the entire world ocean (via the Med), for centuries to come, and what Russia is doing now risks that and worse.

 

[PsihoKekec]

Russian held facility getting shelled, must be the Russians shelling it.

Talk about a triumph of faith over reason.

 

[Captain X]

Yeah, that's crazy, it's not like they ever blew anything up and tried to blame it on someone else or anything like that.

 

[PsihoKekec]

Same goes for the Ukrainian overlords.

 

[Captain X]

NO U

 

[PsihoKekec]

Not to mention that their handlers in Pentagon do have the most recent experience in bombing a critical infrastructure with potential of causing massive casualties and blaming it on Russians, they pulled that shit in 2017 when they bombed Tabqa dam, jamming the sluice gates and blaming it on Russians and then also bombing the repair crew and also blaming it on the Russians.

 

[Captain X]

Not to mention that their handlers in Pentagon do have the most recent experience in bombing a critical infrastructure with potential of causing massive casualties and blaming it on Russians, they pulled that shit in 2017 when they bombed Tabqa dam, jamming the sluice gates and blaming it on Russians and then also bombing the repair crew and also blaming it on the Russians.

Which still does not undermine the fact that Russia bombed one of their own prisons and killed a bunch of POWs, and then tried to blame it on Ukraine, nor does it somehow argue against the notion that Russia seems to be doing its best to cause another nuclear disaster. None of you attempts at playing the "whatabout" game will do that.

Also, you have shit like this which really undermines the idea that Russia is somehow the good guy here, and that the only difference for Ukrainians would have been who they pay taxes to.

More unhappy Russian servicemen revealing what happened in those first few days of the war, and how horribly equipped/run the Russian military is.

Edit: Even worse, this unit was part of what happened in Bucha and Irpin.

"Based Russia."

 

[PsihoKekec]

Which still does not undermine the fact that Russia bombed one of their own prisons and killed a bunch of POWs

That is according to propaganda your side prescribes to, while the propaganda of the other side has equally compelling arguments that it was the Ukrainian side that did it.

Propaganda of both sides aside, the most logical option is that it is Ukrainian side that it is shelling the facility under Russian control.

 

[Marduk]

Let's see what you got wrong here.

1) 'An inspector general', not 'the inspector general'; not sure if this is an English as second language issue, but there is a difference between the two. Sen. Paul was talking about appointing an inspector general just to oversee the Ukraine aid, not making the head of the OIG do it himself.

2) 'Mostly symbolic, high level bureaucratic kind of supervision ' is an assumption you made, not anything in Sen. Paul said, so that's again on you to prove that it would be such.

Unless you are implying that said inspector will move his or some underling's physical ass to Ukraine to count hardware on the lines, that is exactly what it has to be.

3) You are the one who started demanding proof oversight would cause significant delays, so it's on you to show that, even in this hypothetical, the delays would have been as bad as you claim. If you were so sure the delays would be significant enough to justify labeling Sen. Paul a 'Russia simp' for suggesting oversight, you should be able to provide something to back it up besides your own assumptions.

Do you believe in the ability of US administrative complex to even decide on who this guy should be and how exactly would he do his jobs in less than several weeks?
It is a fairly pointless and not insignificant delay, that's my point.

Interesting. So, having open borders between the West and Russia would actually sound like a good idea just so long as security threats are kept out, no?

Kinda, sorta, if optimized properly for assimilation and keeping out troublemakers of all sorts. Don't want a repeat of Turkish migration, where Turks living in the western countries are effectively half-living in Turkey, under close watch of Turkish institution, watching Turkish media involved in Turkish politics, and in local ones only in favor of international relations with Turkey. Dissidents only. On the other hand siphoning off Russia's IT sector and the like is definitely worthwhile.

As many as 200,000 IT personnel are said to have left Russia since the day of the invasion, February 24, as workers flee deteriorating economic conditions.

Russian media CNews announced that there were almost 95,000 vacancies in its IT industry at the end of March after workers moved abroad. Since then, it has claimed the number of resumes is growing and vacancies are decreasing,

But, at the same time, the share of candidates ready to relocate has exceeded 40 percent, with as many as 45 percent of Russian programmers believed to favour moving to Europe, according to Russian recruitment specialist hh.ru.

 

[Zachowon]

Unless you are implying that said inspector will move his or some underling's physical ass to Ukraine to count hardware on the lines, that is exactly what it has to be.

Do you believe in the ability of US administrative complex to even decide on who this guy should be and how exactly would he do his jobs in less than several weeks?
It is a fairly pointless and not insignificant delay, that's my point.

Kinda, sorta, if optimized properly for assimilation and keeping out troublemakers of all sorts. Don't want a repeat of Turkish migration, where Turks living in the western countries are effectively half-living in Turkey, under close watch of Turkish institution, watching Turkish media involved in Turkish politics, and in local ones only in favor of international relations with Turkey. Dissidents only. On the other hand siphoning off Russia's IT sector and the like is definitely worthwhile.

I say we should put an Inspector General in Ukraine.

And Marduk your country has a large risk from the rads that could happen from the powerplant

 

[Arch Dornan]

Which still does not undermine the fact that Russia bombed one of their own prisons and killed a bunch of POWs, and then tried to blame it on Ukraine, nor does it somehow argue against the notion that Russia seems to be doing its best to cause another nuclear disaster. None of you attempts at playing the "whatabout" game will do that.

Isn't it more logical and cheaper to just kill POWs with bullets than a bomb? They already have a sinking reputation so they can go through with it.

 

[mrttao]

The US and by extension all countries on the North American continent will not collapse for the same reason we did not collapse during the Great Depression. We are very resource rich. Contrary to popular belief we have plenty of Rare Earths on the Continent. We also have vast Natural Gas and Oil Fields. Add in we have some of the most fertile soil on the planet. Gives us a leg up. Will we have a Recession or a Depression maybe. But collapse no not really. We will just innovate and use are assets to keep the Americas strong. Europe and the Old World will have to get by the best way they can or get with the New World area program.

... are you seriously trying to tell me that mere natural resources as some sort of perfect shield against government corruption, social ills, civil war, destroyed industry (all was shipped to china), and failed economic policy?

Why isn't africa a utopian of abundance then? it is rife with natural resources.

 

[mrttao]

Russian nuclear terrorism is perhaps the biggets reason for international involvement in Ukraine; rads and their byproducts do not care for politics or ideology, they will fuck you up no matter who you support.

Chernobyl came damn close to poisoning the Black Sea, and by extension potentially the entire world ocean (via the Med), for centuries to come, and what Russia is doing now risks that and worse.

No, just no. The world is already full of radioactive materials.

Uranium in open ocean: concentration and isotopic composition..|INIS

inis.iaea.org

3.35 +/- 0.2 μ g l^-1
the +/- is the margin of error. lets put that aside for now for the sake of the math
μ g l^-1 = micro-gram / liter = gram / (liter * 10^6)

How much water is in the ocean?

About 97 percent of Earth's water is in the ocean.

oceanservice.noaa.gov

352,670,000,000,000,000,000 gallon
= 1.6032695603e+21 liter

1.6032695603e+21 liter * (3.35 grams / (liter * 10^6)) =
5.370953027005 e+15 grams =
5,920,462,272.1112 ton

Almost 6 billion tons of uranium is dissolved in the sea and is roughly equally distributed through it. A nuclear reactor spilling into the ocean will do absolutely nothing.

You are repeating up old USSR propaganda on how they "saved europe" (from their own fuckup) when their nuclear engineers and first responders heroically sacrificed their lives to stop the chernobyl disaster... except, its all lies. The movies are just old propaganda.

Spoiler: Debunking by actual nuclear scientist

HBO chernobyl is a modern remake of the old USSR propaganda on how their guys heroically saved europe. HBO claims it is "scientifically accurate" because they "did their research"... unfortunately, their "research", was just looking up USSR propaganda from the event instead of actually consulting any actual nuclear physicists.
Although to be fair, that old propaganda was recordings of interviews of USSR nuclear scientists, but they were just saying what their PR department told them to say.

Thunderfoot is a youtuber that mostly debunks fake science online. He is a real nuclear scientist who works at a nuclear reactor.

The fact is, there is radiation everywhere on earth and if you dilute the spilloff in the ocean it will amount to a big nothingburger.

Also there is an inverse relationship between how dangerous a source of radiation is and how long it actually lasts.

The greatest danger is in the first few weeks during which you have very high radiation but also rapid degredation of isotopes with low half life. After a decade the only isotopes remaining are those whose half life is big enough for them to not be all that dangerous.