Russia(gate/bot) Russia-Ukraine War Political Discussion

[Marduk]

Hypocrisy is a two way street I think when it comes to world affairs. The local head in Ukraine resigned over that.

Zelenskiy rebukes Amnesty for accusing Ukraine of endangering civilians

Ukrainian president and British and US ambassadors criticise report that says soldiers should not be based in empty schools

www.theguardian.com

It's not "current thing" exception for AI getting hit with criticism, it's a notoriously left leaning organization that has its pet peeves interfere into its work.
They had a shitstorm over taking away some designation from Navalny over his anti-immigration comments, and let's not even get into all the beef they usually have with Israel.

 

[Arch Dornan]

It's not "current thing" exception for AI getting hit with criticism, it's a notoriously left leaning organization that has its pet peeves interfere into its work.
They had a shitstorm over taking away some designation from Navalny over his anti-immigration comments, and let's not even get into all the beef they usually have with Israel.

I'm not talking about current thing. It's the position of their existence on the world globe to inevitably be biased to the side they pick. When it comes to ideal accountability and impartiality it won't happen because of that from the get go.

 

[TheRejectionist]

It's not "current thing" exception for AI getting hit with criticism, it's a notoriously left leaning organization that has its pet peeves interfere into its work.
They had a shitstorm over taking away some designation from Navalny over his anti-immigration comments, and let's not even get into all the beef they usually have with Israel.

Amnesty International is a joke but there is legitamate concerns over Israeli treatment of Palestinians. Also on Zelensky is the exact contrary of a paragon of virtue, the West just pretends he is a fighter for freedom just like Bin Laden and the Taliban were against the USSR.

 

[Marduk]

Amnesty International is a joke but there is legitamate concerns over Israeli treatment of Palestinians. Also on Zelensky is the exact contrary of a paragon of virtue, the West just pretends he is a fighter for freedom just like Bin Laden and the Taliban were against the USSR.

Zelensky is not a Dear Leader, like him or not, he will not be president in a few years no matter what happens, so he's not that important to this. It's about whether Ukraine will be ruled by Putin&co or not, and there are very good reasons for them to go with not.

 

[ATP]

The U.S. has never won a World War without outside help, to the extent that the Wehrmacht in WWII did not classify a single U.S. Division as first class; those honors were reserved for Red Army divisions. Only the 3rd ID was rated highly by the Germans. Indeed, this is precisely why the Soviets inflicted far more casualties upon the Germans than the U.S. did. In fact, you can actually expand this into a general point: the U.S. did not win a single conventional war in the 20th Century by itself.

Of the major COIN operations it undertook, the only victories it had were against the Philippines and insurgents in Central America; it lost all the rest. The Russians, meanwhile, won six out of the nine insurgency fights they undertook. The Soviet intervention into Afghanistan, in particular, is striking; the Russians and their allied forces achieved a better loss rate than the U.S. did with its allies.

Soviets on american trucks with american trains delivering ammo made from american materials.On their own they could stop germans,but that would be all.
And they lost 2-3 soldiers for one german even in 1945.
When all we need to win war would be few A bombs on germany.Which would cost far less then american Lend-Lease to soviets.

 

[Bacle]

 

[Zachowon]

Hmmmmm.
Shall we start wondering

 

[bintananth]

Hmmmmm.
Shall we start wondering

Not really. If Russia actually uses a nuke there won't be a Russia when the dust settles.

This is just grandstanding on Russia's part.

 

[mrttao]

Not really. If Russia actually uses a nuke there won't be a Russia when the dust settles.

there won't be a europe, china, or america either

the entire western world is funneling weapons towards russia's enemies, which is a clear act of war meant to push russia's back against a corner. Without any regards to the fact that they are literally starting world war 3.

 

[Cherico]

there won't be a europe, china, or america either

the entire western world is funneling weapons towards russia's enemies, which is a clear act of war meant to push russia's back against a corner. Without any regards to the fact that they are literally starting world war 3.

yeah pretty much.

I mean its not very nice at all but russia did the same thing to us multiple times and this is just how the game is played now. Is it nice? Nope its a shitty thing to do, but at the end of the day only one power was going to dominate the western world.

Same thing happened last civilizational cycle.

It sucked to be carthrage and it sucks to be russian.

 

[bintananth]

yeah pretty much.

I mean its not very nice at all but russia did the same thing to us multiple times and this is just how the game is played now. Is it nice? Nope its a shitty thing to do, but at the end of the day only one power was going to dominate the western world.

Same thing happened last civilizational cycle.

It sucked to be carthrage and it sucks to be russian.

"It's all over and I'm standin' pretty
In this dust that was a city
If I could find a souvenier
Just to prove the world was here"
- Nena, 99 Red Balloons

 

[Cherico]

"It's all over and I'm standin' pretty
In this dust that was a city
If I could find a souvenier
Just to prove the world was here"
- Nena, 99 Red Balloons

Russia has a lot less nukes then it did back then, and they have a lot of people they would be forced to hit if they did decide to play that hand. Were talking about around 7,000 nukes rounded up that would have to be split between most of europe, Canada, Us, Japan, and Likely china to boot because the chinese would strike if they saw weakness.

This doesn't include the fact america has been spending billions on star wars defenses for 40 years, the fact that their nukes are aging soviet stuff, and once they launch every one dog piles them because that's how mad works.

So a lot of countries will go through a couple generations of bad times but Russia stops existing.

 

[mrttao]

So a lot of countries will go through a couple generations of bad times but Russia stops existing.

Wishful thinking.
In a global nuclear war there are no winners

 

[Cherico]

Wishful thinking.
In a global nuclear war there are no winners

Every one loses but some people loose less then others, and some people lose more.

This by the way is why were pouring all the toys into the Ukraine the idea being to fight russia to the very last Ukranian and hopefully bleed them white before they hit nato countries. Because then it does become a nuclear issue.

 

[LordsFire]

there won't be a europe, china, or america either

the entire western world is funneling weapons towards russia's enemies, which is a clear act of war meant to push russia's back against a corner. Without any regards to the fact that they are literally starting world war 3.

...Of all people, I had not expected Russian apologism from you.

Russia launched an unprovoked invasion of a neighboring nation, and not even the first or second in recent history. It's not like Ukraine was arming up and mobilizing to invade or something stupid like that.

Prove yourself to be a rogue state with a penchant for taking bites out of neighboring countries, and your historical adversaries will support the nations that you're attacking. This isn't exactly rocket science, it's basic bread-and-butter international politics, and has been for millennia.

The odds of this escalating to WW3 are also pretty low. Russia lacks the ability to prosecute a war against the rest of the war, and nobody is interested in escalating to nuclear conflict, which means that the most likely result is that Russia bleeds itself out on Ukraine, and either ends up with some modest or marginal territory gains, or is kicked back out to the previous, or pre-2014 borders.

Russia knows that if it starts a fight with NATO at large, it will lose. Russian leaders also know that if they throw a nuclear temper tantrum, they will die. They also have good reason to be confident that NATO will forbid the Ukrainians from trying to counter-invade and annex Russian territory, because defensive nuclear deployment is seen as much more acceptable.

None of this means that escalation is impossible, just very unlikely, because pretty much all of the key decision makers for that know that they will be guaranteed to lose.

 

[mrttao]

...Of all people, I had not expected Russian apologism from you.

I am eye rolling so hard right now at this "apologism" nonsense.
I literally pointed out that pushing a nuclear power's back against the wall has consequences.
There is no "apologism" in pointing out the consequences of war.

Russia launched an unprovoked invasion of a neighboring nation

False, it was provoked.
Which incidentally, does not mean I approve of how they went about it. But claiming it was unprovoked is lies.

rogue state

PR nonsense.
The western nations have been invading nations for years now. Somehow they are not "rogue states" but rather "glorious liberators" for doing so.

nobody is interested in escalating to nuclear conflict

Nobody is interested in being utterly crushed either.
Nuclear war lets the loser take others down with them.
Spite is a powerful force.

Putin knows that the west would see him deposed and tortured to death like so many other so called "mad dictators" (do an image search for "kaddafi death").

If I was in his shoes, and faced such a loss, then I would absolutely shoot the nukes to take my enemies down with me.

 

[LordsFire]

False, it was provoked.

Unless you are massing forces for an invasion, mass-killing another nation's citizens, or some similar level of heinous behavior, yes, the invasion is unprovoked. 'Refused to be your puppet' is not adequate provocation for an invasion.

Yes, I know this criteria arguably puts the US on the dark side for Iraq, no that does not change that Russia's invasion was completely unjustified.

Putin knows that the west would see him deposed and tortured to death like so many other so called "mad dictators" (do an image search for "kaddafi death").
If I was in his shoes, and faced such a loss, then I would absolutely shoot the nukes to take my enemies down with me.

I'm glad you're not in his shoes then. You also seem to be ignoring the significant possibility that if Putin gives orders like that, others will not follow them. Further, if he's going to be tortured to death, it won't be by western powers, it'll be by his own people who depose him.

 

[mrttao]

@LordsFire you are laboring under the childish notion that every conflict is a "good vs evil". You labeled russia as evil and therefore the forces of the west must be "the good guys" by process of elimination.

Based on your ridiculous notion of "good vs evil" you are parroting every snippet of anti russia wartime propaganda. Discarding all facts to the contrary, and trying to paint everyone who opposes them as completely blameless.

Russia, Ukraine, USA, and the european countries involved are all cut from the same cloth. An evil government, an oppressed citizenry, a fake democracy.

There is lots of blame to go around here for this conflict.
Russia is not blameless, but neither are the western forces.
your assertion that Russia is just evil mcbadguys who are randomly doing acts of evil for no reason is just ridiculous.
your assertion that all other nations involved are innocent mcsaints who did nothing wrong is even more ridiculous.

 

[Cherico]

Every one in this conflict is some flavor of asshole.

But I see this as just a sad conclusion and last war of the cold war.

Fact is Rome and Carthrage just couldn't coexist. After WW2 the fight over who was going to reign as the imperial center of a new western empire was between us and Russia. And Russia had a good solid chance of actually winning that shit. It was a generational conflict that lasted years.

expecting a instant reaprochment with some one who threatened to murder you and your children for decades just isn't happening. I mean Id feel sorry for the russians but the fact is their worst social problems are all self inflicted, and while its a dick move if theres going to be an empire I want an american one.

We know for a fact that Russia would have done the same thing if not worse if they had won.

 

[LordsFire]

@LordsFire you are laboring under the childish notion that every conflict is a "good vs evil". You labeled russia as evil and therefore the forces of the west must be "the good guys" by process of elimination.

Based on your ridiculous notion of "good vs evil" you are parroting every snippet of anti russia wartime propaganda. Discarding all facts to the contrary, and trying to paint everyone who opposes them as completely blameless.

Russia, Ukraine, USA, and the european countries involved are all cut from the same cloth. An evil government, an oppressed citizenry, a fake democracy.

There is lots of blame to go around here for this conflict.
Russia is not blameless, but neither are the western forces.
your assertion that Russia is just evil mcbadguys who are randomly doing acts of evil for no reason is just ridiculous.
your assertion that all other nations involved are innocent mcsaints who did nothing wrong is even more ridiculous.

Literally your entire argument here is your own mental fabrication, based on putting words in my mouth and/or thoughts in my head. This is both terrible argumentation, and reveals that you really haven't bothered to put any detailed thought into actual reasons someone would disagree with you.

No country is perfect. No country is utterly without any redeeming factor whatsoever.

In this flawed world we live in, when a conflict between other nations takes place, you have three options. Support side A as the lighter shade of gray, support side B as the lighter shade of gray, or decide they're both terrible enough you're not going to support either.

Both the Ukraine and Russia have chronic corruption problems, civil rights problems, and general assholery problems.

But Russia pulled the trigger on this conflict, has gotten tens of thousands killed, and will probably get millions more killed through induced famine effects. Ukraine did not start the violence, Russia did. If you want to claim otherwise, state directly what Ukraine did that justifies Russia's bloody onslaught.

And thus Russia is in this conflict the darker shade of gray, justly seen as the villain, and having their imperial ambitions thwarted is in the interests of every other nation in Europe, because Russia has proven itself to be a very real threat to any neighbor's sovereignty. A 'strict isolationist' argument can be made for keeping the US out, but if we're going to have allies in Europe, helping the Ukrainians wreck the Russian military further away from them makes sense.