Russia-Ukraine War Political Discussion

[Agent23]

*snip*

Old but gold meme!
Libertarianism intensifies.

In the event that the morons running my country try and draft me I will be doing an [insert whichever bullshit program I can qualify for on short notice] masters degree, remotely, from a cabin in the woods, that is formerly not in my name and has no cell coverage.

 

[Zachowon]

No, it's slavery. It's forced labor of people who did nothing wrong and did not agree to do it. That's what slavery is. Yes, it's not as bad as US chattel slavery of the 1600-1800's, but it is still awful.

The major allowance is that it is temporary, but that's still slavery. Now you can sometimes justify mass slavery because of a worse threat that there is no other way to guard against (e.g. resisting an invasion that would result in mass slavery or death, like (probably, not going to argue for or against here) in South Korea or Israel), but the US really can't justify it because we have such a successful volunteer military.

Ukraine forcing its men to fight could oddly be justified by Russia doing the same, because if it was conquered, it would then open itself up further mass slavery of conscription. But personally, I find it falls short.


A draft is nearly always a worse evil than what it seeks to guard against.

Similarly, yes, taxation is theft. So any taxation must be for a good enough purpose to justify its inherent evil use of coercion. Unless it is so necessary to spend the money that you find going around and putting guns top peoples head's acceptable, it shouldn't be funded by tax dollars, as that is what public funding is. So for example, no, I don't think we should be providing foreign aid to Ukraine right now, but we should be able to privately donate to raise money for their weapons.

A draft is actually something a country should have the capability to call upon if needed.
I mean wothout a draft how likely would the North have won Civil War?
The Nazis been defeated?

It depends on the reason for the draft

 

[Abhorsen]

Yes, you did agree to it, by remaining/becoming a citizen of the US. If you don't think that the privileges gained via that citizenship are worthwhile, there's plenty countries that don't have compulsory service.



Previous US wars where the draft was used:

Civil War
WW1
WW2
Korean War
Vietnam

Of those 5, Vietnam is the most questionable, with WW1 a distant second. Every other one was entirely moral.

I don't care so much that the wars are moral, that's a necessary condition, but by no means sufficient. (More on this in my reply to @Zachowon below).

It's wrong for a country to force people at gunpoint to do things. And no, just being a citizen does not mean you've suddenly signed up to all the stupid/immoral things a country agrees to, nor give the country a moral pass. Not being a slave is a basic human right. There is no agreement that one can sign up to that will give it up, the same with one's right to practice a religion, etc. What the government can do is commit an evil (the draft, taxes, etc) to avert a greater evil. That's it. It's still wrong, just a necessary wrong. But it's so rarely a lesser evil and not just an additional evil (I'd say just the civil war) that it should just be tossed, especially in this age of a volunteer army.

A draft is actually something a country should have the capability to call upon if needed.
I mean wothout a draft how likely would the North have won Civil War?
The Nazis been defeated?

It depends on the reason for the draft

A draft is forced labor, also known as slavery. Unless a) you are defending against something worse than mass forced temporary slavery (which isn't much, just mass executions or more slavery), and b) you for some reason can't enough recruit people voluntarily that conscription is the difference between defeat and success, the draft is not the lesser evil.

I'm especially dubious as to (b) in WW2 and Korea, and WW1 and Vietnam don't satisfy (a).

So in this war, Russia is definitely evil for doing conscription, and Ukraine is also probably wrong (for reason (b), as (a) is arguably satisfied by Russia's conscription).

To be clear, I don't see either side as 'good'. Just one side as monstrous (Russia: slave soldier, invading a foreign country, playing the will I won't I nuke you game, etc.), and the other side as mediocre (a corrupt democracy, but trending the wrong way during the war (typical, but bad), and also an armed nazi brigade).

Public funding would be a great idea, if we had a way around the coordination problem, which we don't. In practice, it's almost always more effective to have one agent in these cases (this is why, for example, Soros or the Koch brothers or Bill Gates is able to effectively spend their money to promote causes they want promoted, but many grassroots efforts to do the same thing have struggled).

The issue with the government doing it is the government is not always as accountable or responsive when it's spending other people's money, but that's in large part a problem of voters not demanding accountability.

Now this is getting off topic, but no, public funding is inherently immoral is my claim. It's wrong to tax people, because it's wrong to threaten people at gun point, which is how taxes are ultimately collected. Hence why communism is morally wrong, not just impossible/impactable. Any further convo about this part is, I think, outside scope of this thread though.

 

[Bacle]

A draft is only as bad as the cause it's in service of.

Don't play this sort of stupid game.

The only power that can draft US citizens into involuntary servitude as cannon fodder is the DC gov.

Given the stolen election, general corruption in DC and the Pentagon, the destruction of numerous civil rights and liberties under the Wu Flu bullshit, and the incompetence/malice of the people in the Pentagon towards the American public the last several years, there is nothing the DC elite could use to realistically justify a draft as an 'emergency measure's, instead of as a short cut to refilling the ranks because recruitment and retention is crap.

Any war that could justify a draft would be at the level MAD would happen before said draft could reasonably get underway, so it is moot anyway.

And I garuantee, if DC does try to pull a draft for bullshit reasons (aka the only ones they have currently), the draft boards and MPs will have a higher attrition rate that the frontline troops, if even the meer act of bringing back the draft doesn't cause a civil war first.

Also, trying to pretend Vietnam was at all a moral war, instead of France forcing us to waste manpower and resources so France could retain more of its own power, as well as part of the 'Domino Theory' bullshit, is fucking idiotic to anyone but warhawk neocons.

 

[Zachowon]

I don't care so much that the wars are moral, that's a necessary condition, but by no means sufficient. (More on this in my reply to @Zachowon below).

It's wrong for a country to force people at gunpoint to do things. And no, just being a citizen does not mean you've suddenly signed up to all the stupid/immoral things a country agrees to, nor give the country a moral pass. Not being a slave is a basic human right. There is no agreement that one can sign up to that will give it up, the same with one's right to practice a religion, etc. What the government can do is commit an evil (the draft, taxes, etc) to avert a greater evil. That's it. It's still wrong, just a necessary wrong. But it's so rarely a lesser evil and not just an additional evil (I'd say just the civil war) that it should just be tossed, especially in this age of a volunteer army.


A draft is forced labor, also known as slavery. Unless a) you are defending against something worse than mass forced temporary slavery (which isn't much, just mass executions or more slavery), and b) you for some reason can't enough recruit people voluntarily that conscription is the difference between defeat and success, the draft is not the lesser evil.

I'm especially dubious as to (b) in WW2 and Korea, and WW1 and Vietnam don't satisfy (a).

So in this war, Russia is definitely evil for doing conscription, and Ukraine is also probably wrong (for reason (b), as (a) is arguably satisfied by Russia's conscription).

To be clear, I don't see either side as 'good'. Just one side as monstrous (Russia: slave soldier, invading a foreign country, playing the will I won't I nuke you game, etc.), and the other side as mediocre (a corrupt democracy, but trending the wrong way during the war (typical, but bad), and also an armed nazi brigade).


Now this is getting off topic, but no, public funding is inherently immoral is my claim. It's wrong to tax people, because it's wrong to threaten people at gun point, which is how taxes are ultimately collected. Hence why communism is morally wrong, not just impossible/impactable. Any further convo about this part is, I think, outside scope of this thread though.

There still would never have been enough volunteers to keep even garrison duties running back stateside.
Draftes were able to allow for the lack of volunteers in some areas.
Also remeber how spread out and numerous the military had to be.
Look at how many ships the Navy had.
The AAF.
The numbers needed for ww2 was not enough by volunteers

 

[The Immortal Watch Dog]

I like the Irish American response to the draft.

That was one of the greatest civil rights battles in American history and one that the rioters decisively won even as the Union slaughtered then.

Note I say Irish Americans, the ones who came off the boat and got conscripted I do think should have bled for their citizenship. We kinda have a moral duty to soak up bullets so native sons don't have too.

But like for a cause that isn't about empowering China and a bunch of degenerate child fondling Satanists and bankers.



This is not a rational or sane set of goals to hold to deal with Russia. This is how you provoke a race of people who are willing to end the planet if it means stopping what they see as the extermination of their culture by hostile foreign predators into doing just that.

Also, trying to pretend Vietnam was at all a moral war, instead of France forcing us to waste manpower and resources so France could retain more of its own power, as well as part of the 'Domino Theory' bullshit, is fucking idiotic to anyone but warhawk neocons.

Vietnam was such a disaster we killed 2,000,000 SEA's so the French could get cheap heroine and Beyer could profit off cheaper painpills.

Nam, like so many of our wars was about narcotics.

Neocons even profaned our righteous war of revenge in Afghanistan by making it about empire building for eurotrash junkies and Sino-Scottish bankers and created a permanent addict class out of working Americans.

When we should have gone in there the way Hulagu Khan went into Baghdad.

 

[Abhorsen]

This is not a rational or sane set of goals to hold to deal with Russia. This is how you provoke a race of people who are willing to end the planet if it means stopping what they see as the extermination of their culture by hostile foreign predators into doing just that.

This is the dumbest wishful thinking I've ever seen (not you, to be clear, but the picture). Like in the US' wildest dreams right now, Russia loses embarrassingly, and Putin botches the aftermath and gets replaced by a different dictator run by the Army instead of State Security. Anything else? lol, no.

There still would never have been enough volunteers to keep even garrison duties running back stateside.
Draftes were able to allow for the lack of volunteers in some areas.
Also remeber how spread out and numerous the military had to be.
Look at how many ships the Navy had.
The AAF.
The numbers needed for ww2 was not enough by volunteers

That's because they closed voluntary enlistment and only allowed people in through the draft come 1942. They had plenty of people who would have volunteered doing a recruitment drive. But FDR, no fan of freedom he, went with the easier but less moral draft instead.






Also, an interesting analysis of why Russia is being so incompetent: Putin has the same problem as middle eastern dictatorships: the problem with a competent military is that they are politically powerful and thus a threat to domestic power.

 

[The Immortal Watch Dog]

This is the dumbest wishful thinking I've ever seen (not you, to be clear, but the picture). Like in the US' wildest dreams right now, Russia loses embarrassingly, and Putin botches the aftermath and gets replaced by a different dictator run by the Army instead of State Security. Anything else? lol, no.

Would that what if even result in something favorable to our interests? Putin is kinda like Gadhaffi and Idi Amin and Mobutu in that I get the distinct impression that Putin is the boss dog of a Junkyard and whoever replaces him is gonna be the crazier of the JYDs.

Usually when you knockover these Slavic tinpots you just end up with an endless heap of shit.

 

[Arch Dornan]

 

[The Immortal Watch Dog]

Good!

I hope some special forces seize him in his home Manuel Noriega style.

 

[Arch Dornan]

View attachment 1236

This is not a rational or sane set of goals to hold to deal with Russia. This is how you provoke a race of people who are willing to end the planet if it means stopping what they see as the extermination of their culture by hostile foreign predators into doing just that

It's a plan to finish off defanging Russia after Boris Yeltsin.

Dunno if there's a second secret attached plan to it comparable to Generalplan Ost or the Morgenthau plan if the planners got drunk on the koolaid of fuck Russia.

 

[Cherico]

Good!

I hope some special forces seize him in his home Manuel Noriega style.

I am honestly surprised the british didn't kill him after that stunt he pulled on the pound.

 

[Bacle]

Where's that 'Let Them Fight' meme when you need it.

 

[PsihoKekec]

I am honestly surprised the british didn't kill him after that stunt he pulled on the pound.

He is well connected to the USA deep state and UK is US vassal, so he is untouchable.

 

[Cherico]

He is well connected to the USA deep state and UK is US vassal, so he is untouchable.

no one is untouchable, that is the grand lesson of human history we are all very squishy and are very vulnerable.

 

[PsihoKekec]

And yet he will die of old age, free, with his wealth untouched.

 

[Agent23]

Good!

I hope some special forces seize him in his home Manuel Noriega style.

I hope one of his mansions gets to be a test target for Kinzhal or Zirokn, with him in it.
I am wondering why there isn't an arrest warrant for Nuland or the Kagans though?

And yet he will die of old age, free, with his wealth untouched.

Don't bet on it.
Kolomoisky is now suddenly anti-war, probably because he is getting squeezed.

 

[SchrodingersWehraboo]

Official Azov Twitter account says Russians are da real fashists, repeats the lie of "Chemical attacks in Syria".





"But muh based Azov holding off the Asiatic moskal hordes..."

 

[Agent23]

"But muh based Azov holding off the Asiatic moskal hordes..."

I wonder if the utter extermination of these rabid dogs will be enough to destroy Ukrainian morale in the east, or will that happen after that massive force near Donetsk that the Russians have encircled will have to be annihilated before that.

 

[Captain X]

I wonder if there's a way to make it so that if they want to restart the draft, they have to draft women, too. Be fun to watch the feminist types do everything they can to kill the draft after that.