Arch Dornan
Oh, lovely. They've sent me a mo-ron.
Testing the waters?
Russia(gate/bot) Russia-Ukraine War Political Discussion
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Testing the waters?
Goddamn slavers can go choke. Fuck the draft.
And yet the White House insists we won't be sending troops to Ukraine.
Though I guess they could just be expecting China to make a move on Taiwan, and with so many forces in Europe watching Ukraine, maybe DC thinks a draft would be the only way to get the manpower for a fight over Taiwan at the same time.
Of course, trying to enact a draft in the US would probably lead to a civil war, because American society is not interested in being used as involuntary cannon fodder for the DC elite after what we saw in Vietnam and would sooner fight DC than fight for DC.
LordsFire
Internet Wizard
...You realize the DC Elite was against the Vietnam war, right?
Also, there are many kinds of war that a draft might be instituted for. A fight over Taiwan is not one of them (unless they're just using it as an excuse). That's a conflict that would be won by sinking Chinese ships and shooting down their air force, no mass land war involved.
That's the thing, the US has had shit recruiting and retention numbers for a bit now, because fewer and fewer people in the US want to sign up to be tools of DC's 'Forever War' bullshit, know about the military's shit pay and benefits compared to civie jobs and the officer cult issue in many services, and can see through military propaganda and recruitment BS easier than ever before.
So instead of trying to change the culture in the US military and maybe realize they need to scale commitments to troops numbers, instead of trying to do it the other way around, the elite in DC are toying with the idea to simply not give people a choice in the matter.
King Arts
Well-known member
Earlier you said you are an ethnic Russian. Your not you are a Jew so why are you flipping back and forth? Are you salty about things from the Tsars time? Because if you are a Jew your interests should be in the Middle East not Europe.
In a VERY enlightening twitter rant, 248k follow account Louise Mensch claims that kicking out Putin and bringing Russia to heel will be revenge for 2016, Covid misinfo, the Scottish referendum, and the Trucker Rally:
The problem with discourse about this war? People like this woman are in the driver’s seat. And yeah, she might be overtly nutty and got ratioed hard in that rant, but there are certainly many like-minded people out there, who share the idea that there’s a direct line from Brexit to Trump to anti-lockdown protestors to J6, and that line leads to Russia. 6 years of lies can do that. And no doubt, in their twisted minds, the idea is forming that after they take “revenge” on Russia, it will be time to take the “Russian puppets” at home to task.
This isn’t getting into the ballyhoo that Ukraine is a testing ground for the World Economic Forum.
She's a fake conservative former politician now journo from UK, who even fucking Buzzfeed thinks is unreliable.In a VERY enlightening twitter rant, 248k follow account Louise Mensch claims that kicking out Putin and bringing Russia to heel will be revenge for 2016, Covid misinfo, the Scottish referendum, and the Trucker Rally:
The problem with discourse about this war? People like this woman are in the driver’s seat. And yeah, she might be overtly nutty and got ratioed hard in that rant, but there are certainly many like-minded people out there, who share the idea that there’s a direct line from Brexit to Trump to anti-lockdown protestors to J6, and that line leads to Russia. 6 years of lies can do that. And no doubt, in their twisted minds, the idea is forming that after they take “revenge” on Russia, it will be time to take the “Russian puppets” at home to task.
This isn’t getting into the ballyhoo that Ukraine is a testing ground for the World Economic Forum.
No, she's not in the driver's seat, she's someone who even the people in the driver's seat think is getting too deep into own propaganda stash.
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There's almost a million Russian Jews living in Israel, and like several hundred thousand living in Russia/Ukraine including some of his relatives as he stated earlier. Leaving ethnicity aside obviously he then has interests in Europe.
Also I'm pretty sure he stated he's only like two thirds Jewish (by ethnicity) in an earlier thread. I swear he was actually telling you that for some reason IIRC. Or maybe it was LordsFire... or someone else with the two word name that was pressed together.
King Arts
Well-known member
No I don’t think I ever asked gold ranger about his family history, I knew he was from Israel because he said so.There's almost a million Russian Jews living in Israel, and like several hundred thousand living in Russia/Ukraine including some of his relatives as he stated earlier. Leaving ethnicity aside obviously he then has interests in Europe.
Also I'm pretty sure he stated he's only like two thirds Jewish (by ethnicity) in an earlier thread. I swear he was actually telling you that for some reason IIRC. Or maybe it was LordsFire... or someone else with the two word name that was pressed together.
LordsFire
Internet Wizard
Familiar enough to know that the idea that the elite in DC didn't like the war is laughable.
The reason they stopped wasting US blood and treasure in Vietnam was because of Cronkite's reporting on the Tet Offensive blew their propaganda, the Kent State shootings by the Nat'l Guard and the Mai Lai Massacre turned the public even further against the US military/political leadership at the time.
And let's not forget Nixon sabotaging the Paris Peace Talks as part of his presidential campaign.
That you think the elite in DC didn't like the Vietnam War, and the power/wealth it created for the military industrial complex and their backers while it was going on, is hilarious in so many ways.
No no, it was me. The two thirds comes from a DNA test thing I did once. Don't remember why mentioning it here was relevant to anything, but then again I have a tendency to blabber about myself sometimes, maybe it was just that.There's almost a million Russian Jews living in Israel, and like several hundred thousand living in Russia/Ukraine including some of his relatives as he stated earlier. Leaving ethnicity aside obviously he then has interests in Europe.
Also I'm pretty sure he stated he's only like two thirds Jewish (by ethnicity) in an earlier thread. I swear he was actually telling you that for some reason IIRC. Or maybe it was LordsFire... or someone else with the two word name that was pressed together.
I think comparing the draft to slavery is a bit extreme. While there are certainly issues with how it's been used, the general concept of "as a citizen of the United States, you have certain rights and also certain duties. One of those duties is to defend the United States and its interests in wartime if required" is entirely sound. It's in fact a something immigrants are required to swear an oath to do, and acknowledge that aspect of US citizenship. Opposition to the draft on the grounds that it's like to slavery is akin to the old "taxation is theft" argument that's used to make fun of libertarians.
Drafts are fairly common feature among even democratic countries that got rare only after the Cold War. Even then, as the current example of Russia shows, there is always a major political price to pay for using conscripts in a conflict, its big enough that even not exactly democratic countries like Russia have to consider it carefully, and its inversely proportional to how well justified and popular the war in question is to the popular opinion, so it works best for defensive wars.
For that matter, a number of countries maintain a policy of compulsory military service and training for everyone, after which they can return to civilian life as a member of the reserves.
I haven't. That said, don't take my analysis as the end-all, be-all. There are a great deal of things in movement right now and it's hard to predict anything. I can identify maybe one or two overall strategies by the West.
Plan A
1) Dissuade the Russians from invading Ukraine by pouring in stingers and javelins, which inflicted heavy damage on the Russians during their time in Afghanistan.
2) Slap sanctions to dissuade Russia or cause internal conflict.
3) Pray that Taiwan doesn't get cold feet.
Plan B (where we are now)
1) Russia is not moving as quickly through Ukraine as anticipated by the Western leaders.
2) Pour in as many weapons as possible into Ukraine to slow the Russians down.
3) Slap on and maintain sanctions on Russia to weaken its ability to function and wage war.
4) Between a stalling invasion on one hand and internal problems from sanctions, Russia will negotiate.
Plan C (where we are heading)
1) Mitigate economy and infrastructure away from Russia as much as possible.
2) Maintain punishing sanctions on Russia.
3) Support Ukrainian insurgents to bleed Russian military dry in Western Ukraine.
4) Bolster Western military power in Poland.
No, it's slavery. It's forced labor of people who did nothing wrong and did not agree to do it. That's what slavery is. Yes, it's not as bad as US chattel slavery of the 1600-1800's, but it is still awful.
The major allowance is that it is temporary, but that's still slavery. Now you can sometimes justify mass slavery because of a worse threat that there is no other way to guard against (e.g. resisting an invasion that would result in mass slavery or death, like (probably, not going to argue for or against here) in South Korea or Israel), but the US really can't justify it because we have such a successful volunteer military.
Ukraine forcing its men to fight could oddly be justified by Russia doing the same, because if it was conquered, it would then open itself up further mass slavery of conscription. But personally, I find it falls short.
A draft is nearly always a worse evil than what it seeks to guard against.
Similarly, yes, taxation is theft. So any taxation must be for a good enough purpose to justify its inherent evil use of coercion. Unless it is so necessary to spend the money that you find going around and putting guns top peoples head's acceptable, it shouldn't be funded by tax dollars, as that is what public funding is. So for example, no, I don't think we should be providing foreign aid to Ukraine right now, but we should be able to privately donate to raise money for their weapons.
Ah, here come the neocons to say why a draft isn't a bad thing and we shouldn't have objections to it.
Any attempt to even float the idea of a draft is going to cause a lot of problems for whatever side is stupid enough to do so, and to actually enforce said draft the powers in DC would effectively have use half the US military as MPs or the like to haul in draft dodgers or hunt them down abroad.
Which is also why attempts to reinstitute the draft is likely to cause a second US civil war; a lot of those draft dodgers may be willing to take the MPs with them, rather than fight for the corrupt powers in DC.
Agent23
Ни шагу назад!
The military-industrial complex wasn't, neither was the US "China lobby", or some of the incompetents who misread Kennan's containment policy and made a pig's breakfast out of it.
Anyway, here is a nice little video of the Duran hosting Robert Barnes, with an in depth view at populist and conservative anti-interventionism, a quick discussion of signs that deaths among Ukrainians might be much, much higher than they lead the world to believe, economic impact, and many, many other topics:
Yes, you did agree to it, by remaining/becoming a citizen of the US. If you don't think that the privileges gained via that citizenship are worthwhile, there's plenty countries that don't have compulsory service.
Previous US wars where the draft was used:
Civil War
WW1
WW2
Korean War
Vietnam
Of those 5, Vietnam is the most questionable, with WW1 a distant second. Every other one was entirely moral.
Public funding would be a great idea, if we had a way around the coordination problem, which we don't. In practice, it's almost always more effective to have one agent in these cases (this is why, for example, Soros or the Koch brothers or Bill Gates is able to effectively spend their money to promote causes they want promoted, but many grassroots efforts to do the same thing have struggled).
The issue with the government doing it is the government is not always as accountable or responsive when it's spending other people's money, but that's in large part a problem of voters not demanding accountability.
A draft is only as bad as the cause it's in service of.
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