Russia(gate/bot) Russia-Ukraine War Political Discussion

[Captain X]

They were vicious murderous barbarians and needed to be brought the light of culture and civilization.

Dude, look at the inhumanity white people have done to each other. Look at the inhumanity Americans have done to their fellow Americans. Look at what was done at Sand Creek and Wounded Knee. You have exactly zero place calling anyone else barbarians.

I was responding to the thing where you said cultural genocide is genocide. Cultural destruction is cultural genocide. So you are saying that genocide is only good when your side does it. Also you are either a liar or ridiculously ignorant. American strategic bombing targeting many historical sites, it also directly interfered with Japans religion. And there was a genocide of Germans after ww2. Which the US did not condemn or do anything about. So wrong again.

Really? There was a serious attempt to erase German culture? To erase the German language? German children were kidnapped from their families and sent to schools where they were forbidden from speaking their native tongue and forced to adopt Anglican names? When did this happen? This is news to me. Hell, in my home state, there are quite a few who are still proud of their German heritage and German is the second-most spoken language. Hell, the state capitol is named after Otto von Bismarck. There is no shortage of towns which share names with cities in Germany.

 

[King Arts]

Dude, look at the inhumanity white people have done to each other. Look at the inhumanity Americans have done to their fellow Americans. Look at what was done at Sand Creek and Wounded Knee. You have exactly zero place calling anyone else barbarians.

Really? There was a serious attempt to erase German culture? To erase the German language? German children were kidnapped from their families and sent to schools where they were forbidden from speaking their native tongue and forced to adopt Anglican names? When did this happen? This is news to me. Hell, in my home state, there are quite a few who are still proud of their German heritage and German is the second-most spoken language. Hell, the state capitol is named after Otto von Bismarck. There is no shortage of towns which share names with cities in Germany.

I was more talking about Japan and this

Humanity Declaration - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Is there a meaningful difference between this and a nation that would force someone to say Jesus is not God, or Muhammad was not a prophet?
That is fucking with the culture and religion of a nation and if those examples with Christians and Muslims would be genocide why not this?

 

[Captain X]

I was more talking about Japan and this

Japanese culture has been erased? Japanese language has been erased? News to me, most of the anime I watch is in that language. They kidnapped Japanese children from their parents and made them adopt American names and punished them if they spoke their native tongue?

 

[Marduk]

I was more talking about Japan and this

Humanity Declaration - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Is there a meaningful difference between this and a nation that would force someone to say Jesus is not God, or Muhammad was not a prophet?
That is fucking with the culture and religion of a nation and if those examples with Christians and Muslims would be genocide why not this?

I think we need to notice a technical difference between "destruction" and "fucking with".

 

[King Arts]

Japanese culture has been erased? Japanese language has been erased? News to me, most of the anime I watch is in that language. They kidnapped Japanese children from their parents and made them adopt American names and punished them if they spoke their native tongue?

I think we need to notice a technical difference between "destruction" and "fucking with".

That’s why I asked mega to give a definition of culture destruction? If the Russian and Ukrainian cultures are so similar they have same religion same food same cultural clothes and their language is also similar what does it take to consider it destroyed?

 

[Abhorsen]

Personally, I've never held that forceful change of culture = genocide. Normal genocide is death/rape in near total (or the attempt of it). Cultural genocide is thus the complete eradication of the previous culture, and everything it stood for. So yes, the humanity declaration was bad. But it wasn't linked with a thousand other things to purposefully kill off the culture such as banning Taoism & Buddhism, especially Zen Buddhism, the destruction of shinto shrines, forceful movement outside of the main islands, etc. You'd need a lot of stuff to make it qualify. Basically there's a really high bar to meet here. Kidnapping and reeducation meets it (or at least meets attempting it).

Notably, kidnapping and reeducation has been tried in the past (notably the US government and native Americans), and I'd say that comes pretty close to qualifying as an attempt.

Apologies for the lack of a precise definition, but I think to start let's establish some examples of what we can all agree are and aren't cultural genocides.

I'd say classic examples are the CCP in Tibet and with the Uighurs, US with the Native Americans when it came to the Indian schools, and various medieval powers forcibly converting Jews.

Non-examples would be the Brits conquering India, US treatment of black citizens post civil war (awful, not genocide though), and the example you just gave with Japan.

 

[Captain X]

That’s why I asked mega to give a definition of culture destruction?

I'm the one who brought the issue up and made the comparison to the boarding schools Native children were kidnapped and sent to, so that is my baseline comparison, which sounds quite a bit like what is being done to Ukrainian children.

If the Russian and Ukrainian cultures are so similar they have same religion same food same cultural clothes and their language is also similar what does it take to consider it destroyed?

If that were the case, Russia wouldn't be going out of its way to be so vocal about their plans to erase Ukrainian culture and language, and there'd be no point in kidnapping their children and sending them to live with Russian families.

 

[Largo]

Is there a meaningful difference between this and a nation that would force someone to say Jesus is not God, or Muhammad was not a prophet?
That is fucking with the culture and religion of a nation and if those examples with Christians and Muslims would be genocide why not this?

Because the Japanese themselves didn't give a shit, and the Emperor Cult wasn't a religion in the same way that Christianity is a religion. You might as well claim that Germany was culturally genocided because the Allies aimed to stamp out Prussianism once and for all.

Like, if if some secular authortiy forced the Pope to say something like "Jesus is not the son of god," you would have a mass reaction from the Catholic faithful. But in Japan? No one gave a shit about the Humanity Declaration. And contrary to what MacArthur and the Americans thought, the Americans probably could have gotten away with destroying the Throne had they really tried to do it (or at the very least, deposed Hirohito and put in a new successor).

And no one has given a shit since. It's been 70 years since the American occupation which lasted for a mere 8 years. And no one in Japan is actually interested in like, making the Emperor a god or giving him real power again. By contrast, Russia has exterminate Ukrainian culture in some way or another with atrocity after atrocity for up to 300 years depending on how you want to demarcate it, and they still haven't succeeded.

 

[Terthna]

No, this war's pace, and likely it's victor, is likely to be dictated by two things, Western support, and weather.

And only one of those is in control of Ukraine and it's allies.

Weather/seasonal cycles dictate the pace of operations as much as any human factor, and do not care what flag you fly.

The decisive terrain is Crimea; there is no use trying to retake the Donbass in it's entirety until Crimea is retaken and secured, otherwise any Ukrainian forces trying to retake the Donbass will still be under fire from Russian aircraft and drones operating out of Crimea.

Retaking Crimea also first requires at least putting at risk the whole landbridge, if not cutting it entirely, and probably a few more strikes on the Kerch, if not destroying it entirely.

This is not going to be a fast war, it is not going to be 'decided' until Putin is dead or replaced and we see who his successor is and if they are more willing to accept Russia will never keep Ukraine's lands, even if it might take a few years for Ukraine to push Russia back out of them. I do not think the average person in Ukraine has any real desire to trust Russia's word on anything ever again, and they know anything less than the 1991 borders is just a delaying action for another invasion 5-8 years down the road. If Russia is able to keep any part of Ukraine, they will try for all of it eventually, and then they will begin work on it's neighbors.

The more support the west gives Ukraine, the more weapons and ammo they have, and the more pressure is put on places like India and the CCP to not do business with Russia, the better.

Securing Crimea is going to be the difficult bit, even after the Russian military is pushed out entirely. At least some of the local populace are going to be uncooperative, and a few may even act belligerent towards the Ukrainian military/government.

 

[Agent23]

Poor little dictators, guess USA does not protect their own at all cost no matter what they do, not like Russia with Assad and Yanukovych... But hey, i'm not a dictator nor particularly care about any, so lemme get my tiny violin.

Yup, the USA totally did not blow up NS1 and 2, thus fucking over a democratic ally, but hey, it is the Germans, whom you Poles hate, so yeah, whatever.

The USA is in for its own interests, which are a mix of MIC and other permanent bureaucracy crap and whatever nonsense electoral pressure groups and the mob called an 'electorate' their politicians occasionally pander to thinks it wants.

 

[Agent23]

Dude, look at the inhumanity white people have done to each other. Look at the inhumanity Americans have done to their fellow Americans. Look at what was done at Sand Creek and Wounded Knee. You have exactly zero place calling anyone else barbarians.

Would you prefer to be under the Mongols?

 

[Cherico]

Would you prefer to be under the Mongols?

The mongols set up a pretty good postal system, set up a system of religous tolerance, and banned torture. They were incredibly brutal during conquests and if you rebelled but you were honestly safer living under the mongols then living under communism. They were not all bad.

 

[Captain X]

Would you prefer to be under the Mongols?

Well, we all know you would rather live under the Russians, but like all those leftists who claim to hate their country and threaten to move to Canada, you just won't follow through.

 

[Agent23]

Well, we all know you would rather live under the Russians, but like all those leftists who claim to hate their country and threaten to move to Canada, you just won't follow through.

My opinion is pretty much in line with that of the majority of people in my country.

Cue the meme with Mr. Esposito on it.

Now, would you like to get back to my question and stop dodging, although your original remark was quite racist against White people.

 

[Captain X]

My opinion is pretty much in line with that of the majority of people in my country.

So move to Russia.

Now, would you like to get back to my question and stop dodging, although your original remark was quite racist against White people.

 

[Agent23]

So move to Russia.

Ah, I see, another silly dodge/parroting of the same nonsense attempt at an attack Marduk used.

I shall respond to your random nonsense remark appropriately.
If you like Ukraine so much, why not move there, and maybe fight for it too?
I have lots more white feathers, enough for all of the chickenhawk internet slacktivists that support Ukraine.

Also, mind explaining to me why the hell I should move to Russia if the majority of my countey is pro-Russia again, seems like the few NAFO shills and Europarasites are the one that need to move out.

 

[Captain X]

Ah, I see, another silly dodge/parroting of the same nonsense attempt at an attack Marduk used.

No, I'm just wondering why, if you love Russia so much, you do not move there. You know, like all the Leftists who constantly complain about how horrible the US is and keep saying they're going to move to Canada, yet never seem to.

 

[Agent23]

No, I'm just wondering why, if you love Russia so much, you do not move there. You know, like all the Leftists who constantly complain about how horrible the US is and keep saying they're going to move to Canada, yet never seem to.

If you haven't noticed I am not American.

 

[Captain X]

If you haven't noticed I am not American.

I've noticed that you tend to act like our Leftists, though.

 

[Agent23]

I've noticed that you tend to act like our Leftists, though.

Oh, really?

Because I support redistribution and leftoid colelctivism?
I do not.
Because I support woke shit?
Wanna show me where?
Because I support the green stupidity?
Show me where!
I am at least in support of cancel culture and the trans crap as is evident here now, can we get back on topic, since your baseless cries of "leftist" are blatantly false and don't work?

Also, might I remind you that the woke and the liberals and the left support Ukraine, too?