Russia-Ukraine War Political Discussion

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Don't cut yourself on that edge. Such rebel. Much nonconformism.


Apparently believing Russian propaganda is what the cool edgy kids do these days.
Oh, wait...
Vietnam_War_protesters._1967._Wichita_Kans_-_NARA_-_283625-640x454.jpg

The more things change, the more they stay the same.

You call it propaganda because you are unable to actually argue against anything I said, you default to low effort shitposting you attack others with precisely because deep down you know you're nothing more than a lapdog for the same organization that is currently destroying Poland from within so all you can do is cope with it by lashing out with Anti-Russian bigotry.

As usual though in our debates, the verdict of history is that I am 100% correct and you are shown to be completely wrong. Case in point.
 
They wold have come eventually,after the USA got them into NATO, meanwhile, they were actually training the Ukrainian military in NATO tactics.

At this point, it's gone past sad, into hilarious, how you just uncritically repeat Russian propaganda, and casually move the goal-posts.

NATO was not in Ukraine, it wasn't on the verge of entering Ukraine, and there certainly weren't bases that had even started construction to host NATO forces. Even if Ukraine did decide to join NATO, as a sovereign nation, that is Ukraine's decision, not Russia, and as NATO has never invaded Russia, but Russia has invaded plenty of border nations (and is doing so again right now!), that still wouldn't be a valid reason to invade.

Yet in this-
We will have to see if that assumption actually pans put, maybe in 6 months or a year.

Sure, sure, like the USA wouldn't invade Mexico if it started hosting Chinese military bases and started repressing pro-American groups and Americans living within its territory and began calling Americans cockroaches.

Forget the Virgin Locke and embrace the Chad Hobbes, at least where international relations are concerned.
-post you are clearly using that as the justification for this.

And it's so hilariously obvious that this, and all the wailing about the ongoing fighting in the Donbass, is just an excuse. If Russia was actually going in for 'humanitarian' reasons, then they'd have rolled out in overwhelming force into the Donbass/Crimea/whatever, but they didn't.

They launched broad-front invasions, and tried for a decapitation strike on the government in Kyiv on top of that. This was transparently an attempt to either outright annex the nation, or to replace the government with a puppet government, and rule by proxy.

Yes, Ukraine has corruption problems. Yes, nasty things are happening within the nation, some of them outright despicable. These things should stop, and applying heavy pressure to get the Ukrainians to stop would be a good idea. But you know what?

That doesn't give the Russians the right to invade.

More, Russia has done and is doing far worse, so if that's the standard, then Russia should be getting crushed by other nations right now.

I'm not sure what's more grimly humorous; how transparent the Russian propaganda is, or how eagerly you fall for it.


You mean places like the Ukrainian PfP Training Centre in Lvov, helpfully listed on the NATO website even? As for Ukrainian NATO membership, you mean like the open invitation to it in 2008 during the Bucharest Summit?
Yes. The training base. With training facilities. That has been training the Ukrainians for years now. All of the sudden, now that's an excuse for invasion? Why wasn't it when the base was set up (checks text in document) and started running joint training operations back in the nineties?

...It's almost like they got invaded by Russia eight years ago, got their asses kicked, and didn't want that to happen again. More, their fears were clearly justified, given here Russia is, invading them again!

There are no rows of tanks at that base, no fleets of helicopter gunships, no F-35s, no brigades of infantry forming up to march on Russia. In fact, it's on the western border of Ukraine, much farther from Russian territory than the NATO nations which are actually, actively, already on its borders.

Also, a standing invitation which has not been taken. And again, even if it was, that would not give Russia any moral right to invade.

(Also, trying to track down who actually owns that base, and it currently looks like the Ukrainians do, they just invite NATO personnel in to train them.)
 
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Sure, sure, like the USA wouldn't invade Mexico if it started hosting Chinese military bases and started repressing pro-American groups and Americans living within its territory and began calling Americans cockroaches.

Forget the Virgin Locke and embrace the Chad Hobbes, at least where international relations are concerned.
The USA might, but it would be morally wrong to do so. I certainly wouldn't blame China for the invasion, that would be dumb.

Honestly, this is also a problem of Russia's creation. The reason Mexico won't do that is that the US and Mexico get along pretty well. If Russia wasn't an asshat to Ukraine in 2014, they likely never would have had this problem. And if Russia hadn't been an asshat to everyone for decades as the USSR, they wouldn't have nations scared of them on their doorsteps trying to join a defensive alliance.
 
Yes. The training base. With training facilities. That has been training the Ukrainians for years now.
...It's almost like they got invaded by Russia eight years ago, got their asses kicked, and didn't want that to happen again. More, their fears were clearly justified, given here Russia is, invading them again!

There are no rows of tanks at that base, no fleets of helicopter gunships, no F-35s, no brigades of infantry forming up to march on Russia. In fact, it's on the western border of Ukraine, much farther from Russian territory than the NATO nations which are actually, actively, already on its borders.

Also, a standing invitation which has not been taken. And again, even if it was, that would not give Russia any moral right to invade.

All I'm seeing out of this is you goalpost shifting because you were dead wrong about there being no NATO bases or invitation to join NATO, which was your original point so now you're trying to engage in technical grounds that have no relevancy to what you were originally saying.

As for the Russian invasion itself, didn't ask, don't care, cope and seethe while Moscow does what it wants and gives NATO an absolute gut punch. NATO violated security agreements it had made with Russia and the policy of expanding up to Russia's doorstep was part of a calculated effort to undermine Russia; we have the RAND corporation documents and enough primary/secondary documentation to prove this. Death to the Ukrainian Army and to NATO itself.
 
The USA might, but it would be morally wrong to do so. I certainly wouldn't blame China for the invasion, that would be dumb.

Honestly, this is also a problem of Russia's creation. The reason Mexico won't do that is that the US and Mexico get along pretty well. If Russia wasn't an asshat to Ukraine in 2014, they likely never would have had this problem. And if Russia hadn't been an asshat to everyone for decades as the USSR, they wouldn't have nations scared of them on their doorsteps trying to join a defensive alliance.
Yeah, sure, I am certain that the USA won't react in a similar way if something like la Raza took over in Mexico with Chinese help.
Especially if a pro-American president of Mexico is thrown out via putch,a few pro-American people protest, get attacked, and get burned alive, then some area, say Baja California, petitioned to be permitted to join the USA because of cultural ties.

But this is all an over-simplification stemming from a set of problems that predate Russia or Ukraine.

Crimea never wanted to be part of the Ukrainian SSR, the eastern part of Ukraine was also forcibly moved from Russia to Ukraine, ever since the USSR fell apart it has wanted to revert back to Russia but you know what, Kiev didn't give a shit.

Instead they preferred to de-Russify the whole country, and Crimea reverted to Russia without a shot being fired.
 
You call it propaganda because you are unable to actually argue against anything I said, you default to low effort shitposting you attack others with precisely because deep down you know you're nothing more than a lapdog for the same organization that is currently destroying Poland from within so all you can do is cope with it by lashing out with Anti-Russian bigotry.

As usual though in our debates, the verdict of history is that I am 100% correct and you are shown to be completely wrong. Case in point.
So you had to spend a week waiting to reply so that Putinists could take their time to fake some war crimes poorly? You poor sod...



And you of all people calling people bigots while shilling for BBC, how hilarious.
After shilling fake right wing movements on the forum, you yet again prove yourself to be a great connoisseur of fake things.
 
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So you had to spend a week waiting to reply so that Putinists could take their time to fake some war crimes poorly? You poor sod...



And you of all people calling people bigots while shilling for BBC, how hilarious.
After shilling fake right wing movements on the forum, you yet again prove yourself to be a great connoisseur of fake things.


No, I waited a week because I have a job and a family, you might find it worthwhile to do the same because you might stop having so many brain dead takes as a result.

Moving on to what you said, I'm going to ignore how funny it is you've attacked me for posting a BBC article when you cite Reddit and a Twitter post from an Anarcho-Communist organization as proof in favor of directly looking at said proof. First and foremost, can you tell me why an official Russian document would be signed with Latin lettering lol? We'll ignore the lack of any supporting evidence to confirm the authenticity of the document for now.

As for the Reddit post, can you explain how the Russians were able to fake a war crime in a location deep behind Ukrainian lines? Everything claimed in that video goes out the window when you consider it would require the Ukrainians to have not noticed a massive Russian production going on miles behind the front line lol.
 
Yes, i know, nothing pro-Ukraine could ever be true for you, thanks for reminding me of what the Kremlin party line is.

You're an utter joke of bad faith takes:

Kyiv will investigate video that appears to show Ukrainian forces shooting Russian prisoners of war

Oleksiy Arestovich, an adviser to Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky, said in a YouTube video on Sunday that Ukraine would punish those responsible if an investigation found the video credible.​
“We are a European army, and we do not mock our prisoners,” Arestovich said in a statement directed at Ukrainian troops in a separate Telegram post. The mistreatment of prisoners of war is forbidden under the Geneva Conventions.​
 
Cope some more, they are mouths to feed, will be so for years, and the situation will get worse once their aged relatives join them.
Yeah, the somewhat more realistic parts of the Eurocracy and the western European power elites and business people are probably sharpening their knives for Poland right about now.
Poland's shenanigans led to them losing a major market and cheap energy access, and I am pretty sure Macron and the business elite in Germany would like nothing better than to yeet Poland out of the EU.
It is not gonna be because of this though, oh no, it will be something about gay rights, or the rule of law, or some other scandal, maybe somebody will even goad them into going into part of Ukraine and taking it, then the entirety of Europe will start reeing about Polish aggression and expansionism.

Actually, I have a better idea, ship all Ukrainians that moved to the EU as refugees to the USA, since they are responsible for this mess.

Which Polish shenanigans are you talking about?

You mean places like the Ukrainian PfP Training Centre in Lvov, helpfully listed on the NATO website even? As for Ukrainian NATO membership, you mean like the open invitation to it in 2008 during the Bucharest Summit?

Ukraine and Georgia got open invitations in 2008 but no Membership Action Plans (MAPs). 14 years later, they're still waiting for NATO MAPs.
 
You're an utter joke of bad faith takes:

Kyiv will investigate video that appears to show Ukrainian forces shooting Russian prisoners of war

Oleksiy Arestovich, an adviser to Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky, said in a YouTube video on Sunday that Ukraine would punish those responsible if an investigation found the video credible.​
“We are a European army, and we do not mock our prisoners,” Arestovich said in a statement directed at Ukrainian troops in a separate Telegram post. The mistreatment of prisoners of war is forbidden under the Geneva Conventions.​

Good for Ukraine for doing the right thing here.
 
Which Polish shenanigans are you talking about?



Ukraine and Georgia got open invitations in 2008 but no Membership Action Plans (MAPs). 14 years later, they're still waiting for NATO MAPs.

And Ukraine and Georgia also share something in common with the Russian Army which probably explains the lack of MAPs.
 
We will have to see if that assumption actually pans put, maybe in 6 months or a year.



Sure, sure, like the USA wouldn't invade Mexico if it started hosting Chinese military bases and started repressing pro-American groups and Americans living within its territory and began calling Americans cockroaches.

Forget the Virgin Locke and embrace the Chad Hobbes, at least where international relations are concerned.

Was Ukraine actually hosting US military bases, though?

And Ukraine and Georgia also share something in common with the Russian Army which probably explains the lack of MAPs.

A common border? Because the Baltics also share a common border with Russia. But of course they were able to enter NATO relatively early, in 2004.
 
No, I waited a week because I have a job and a family, you might find it worthwhile to do the same because you might stop having so many brain dead takes as a result.
If that's true (considering your previous chatposting, quite an odd excuse to use), why not a month? Hell, give your family a whole year, why do you care for shilling Putin instead? Why that coincidental timing?
Moving on to what you said, I'm going to ignore how funny it is you've attacked me for posting a BBC article when you cite Reddit and a Twitter post from an Anarcho-Communist organization as proof in favor of directly looking at said proof. First and foremost, can you tell me why an official Russian document would be signed with Latin lettering lol? We'll ignore the lack of any supporting evidence to confirm the authenticity of the document for now.
As we all know anarcho-communist organizations go great with Labour supporting media.
As for the Reddit post, can you explain how the Russians were able to fake a war crime in a location deep behind Ukrainian lines? Everything claimed in that video goes out the window when you consider it would require the Ukrainians to have not noticed a massive Russian production going on miles behind the front line lol.
Stop being a kek and read the dates and places. The location shifted ownership quite recently, while the supposed order is from a week ago.
Obviously it wasn't a massive production, that would imply a better quality video for one, it was an amateur hour.
You're an utter joke of bad faith takes:

Kyiv will investigate video that appears to show Ukrainian forces shooting Russian prisoners of war

Oleksiy Arestovich, an adviser to Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky, said in a YouTube video on Sunday that Ukraine would punish those responsible if an investigation found the video credible.​
“We are a European army, and we do not mock our prisoners,” Arestovich said in a statement directed at Ukrainian troops in a separate Telegram post. The mistreatment of prisoners of war is forbidden under the Geneva Conventions.​
You're a bad faith take.
 
That's US troops training Ukrainian forces on a Ukrainian military base, no? It's not an actual US military base in Ukraine.

We have an entire unit of the U.S. military posted there doing full spectrum activities including equipment and training centers at a facility. Let's be honest and call a spade a spade because that is a base.
 
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