More than 30 killed in Maui as wildfire wipes town of Lahaina off the map ... the videos of the devastation are unreal

[Rocinante]

Hey, resident isolationists, no one cares about your obsessive need to stick your pet obsessions into this. They have nothing to do with the issue at hand, and if anything, you are being useful idiots doing their best to distract everyone from the fact that Hawaii is a deep blue democrat fiefdom, and so this whole mess is a result of democrats, as usual for them, despite being huge proponents of big government, being also proponents of forgetting about fulfilling the actual basic responsibilies of the government properly (because that's not cool and progressive and everyone takes it for granted) and instead running the place like a clown show (of course a very cool and progressive clown show), which has absolutely no causal relationship with the federal government not following your equally clownish foreign policy recommendations, any half competent government should be able to not be clowns at both at the same time.

Well if you, a moderator, wants to bring back the derail we moved on from DAYS ago to because you have a Ukraine boner, The same day Biden announced his $700 per person to Hawaii, he was also trying to secure 25 billion more for Ukraine, and that's worth talking about. That's why people bring it up. He's more focused on sending more money to Ukraine than he is taking care of our own people.

This is entirely consistent with your ramblings about how the problem is that democrats are incompetent. I agree. Joe Biden trying to send 25bn more to Ukraine while Americans suffer from a disaster is a great example of that.

 

[Marduk]

What are you talking about?

Unless you mixed up your threads, we've already moved on from the Ukraine digression and are back on topic now. So, with respect, you're being obnoxious and derailing with your foreign-policy stuff when no one's been talking about it for a while.

Well if you, a moderator, wants to bring back the derail we moved on from DAYS ago to because you have a Ukraine boner,

>moved on
>days ago
>last mention of foreign policy being 6 posts ago, 20 hours ago
You two have wasted a perfectly good opportunity to not say anything, but now you are quick to come up with silly defenses because i bothered to dump on your camp. How very curious...
If you want to defend your dumb narrative, do it openly, instead of passive-aggressive skirmishing and accusing me of derailing.

The same day Biden announced his $700 per person to Hawaii, he was also trying to secure 25 billion more for Ukraine, and that's worth talking about. That's why people bring it up. He's more focused on sending more money to Ukraine than he is taking care of our own people.

If you want to argue that Democrat Biden is not being Democrat enough by not giving enough money to Democrats who suffered from local Democrat politician's failures as a bribe to not complain and keep voting for Democrats, local and federal, feel free to, but i'm not sure how populist that's gonna be.
>our
They voted for this. Did you?

 

[Zyobot]

>moved on
>days ago
>last mention of foreign policy being 6 posts ago, 18 hours ago
You two have wasted a perfectly good opportunity to not say anything, but now you are quick to come up with silly defenses because i bothered to dump on your camp. How very curious...
If you want to defend your dumb narrative, do it openly, instead of passive-aggressive skirmishing and accusing me of derailing.

If you want to argue that Democrat Biden is not being Democrat enough by not giving enough money to Democrats who suffered from local Democrat politician's failures as a bribe to not complain and keep voting for Democrats, local and federal, feel free to, but i'm not sure how populist that's gonna be.

You and @Rocinante brought up Ukraine, not me. Even then, you've been on this site long enough to know full well that little digressions are normal and that they don't always need a mod's attention.

So, really, you don't get to tell me off for calling you out for hypocrisy and bringing Ukraine into this again. You wanna' project your obsessions and idiotic dunking on others into actual foreign-policy threads, go ahead; at least I'll be courteous enough not to derail them like you have.

Well if you, a moderator, wants to bring back the derail we moved on from DAYS ago to because you have a Ukraine boner, The same day Biden announced his $700 per person to Hawaii, he was also trying to secure 25 billion more for Ukraine, and that's worth talking about. That's why people bring it up. He's more focused on sending more money to Ukraine than he is taking care of our own people.

This is entirely consistent with your ramblings about how the problem is that democrats are incompetent. I agree. Joe Biden trying to send 25bn more to Ukraine while Americans suffer from a disaster is a great example of that.

You just had to take his bait, didn't you?

 

[Marduk]

You and @Rocinante brought up Ukraine, not me. Even then, you've been on this site long enough to know full well that little digressions are normal and that they don't always need a mod's attention.

I didn't even use the word "Ukraine" in any of my posts here, yet somehow some people automatically knew i brought it up, even though other people did before me. Are we perhaps reading a different thread or something? Or perhaps you have some sort of temporal orientation problem (hint: all the posts in the thread are in fact sorted chronologically for your convenience).

So, really, you don't get to tell me off for calling you out for hypocrisy and bringing Ukraine into this again. You wanna' project your obsessions and idiotic dunking on others into actual foreign-policy threads, go ahead; at least I'll be courteous enough not to derail them like you have.

>again
Ah, so isolationists get to use this as their soapbox, but it's derailing and "my obsessions and idiotic dunking" if i criticize them for it?

 

[Rocinante]

I didn't even use the word "Ukraine" in any of my posts here, yet somehow some people automatically knew i brought it up, even though other people did before me. Are we perhaps reading a different thread or something? Or perhaps you have some sort of temporal orientation problem (hint: all the posts in the thread are in fact sorted chronologically for your convenience).

>again
Ah, so isolationists get to use this as their soapbox, but it's derailing and "my obsessions and idiotic dunking" if i criticize them for it?

Oh what could YOU have POSSIBLY been talking about with your "isolationists" comment? You didn't specifically say Ukraine. Sure couldn't be that long. That's definitely not a pet topic of yours.

What ever could you have been talking about? The world may never know. Silly, silly me for making such baseless and ridiculous assumptions.

 

[Marduk]

Oh what could YOU have POSSIBLY been talking about with your "isolationists" comment. You didn't specifically say Ukraine. Sure couldn't be that long. That's definitely not a pet topic of yours.

So, are we done with accusations that i'm the one who needlessly brought it up, rather than, you know, i was responding to other people people who did needlessly bring it up multiple times, some days ago, some mere hours ago?
We could have skipped that whole pointless exchange if you bothered to look at several posts before mine instead of making up deflections against my point based on who brought up what and when, when such data is public and your claims about which were obviously wrong.

 

[Rocinante]

So, are we done with accusations that i'm the one who needlessly brought it up, rather than, you know, i was responding to other people people who did needlessly bring it up multiple times, some days ago, some mere hours ago?
We could have skipped that whole pointless exchange if you bothered to look at several posts before mine instead of making up deflections against my point based on who brought up what and when, when such data is public and your claims about which were obviously wrong.

No.

Admittedly, I was not as up to date with the thread and hadn't seen the one from almost a day ago, but still no.

Because people like me and @Bacle who talk about this stuff often, and are on opposite sides, were able to drop it and put it aside.

And we're just regular every day members.

You're a moderator. So you come in here "covertly" sniping and posting bait. Then trying to weasel around it with "oh i didnt even say the word Ukraine," lol. I'll admit, you got me with the bait. I should have been better than that.

You? You're a mod. Do better.

 

[Marduk]

No.

Admittedly, I was not as up to date with the thread and hadn't seen the one from almost a day ago, but still no.

Because people like me and @Bacle who talk about this stuff often, and are on opposite sides, were able to drop it and put it aside.

And we're just regular every day members.

Yes, apparently you weren't up to date with the thread, yet went in, and at that specifically with arguments over how i should have also acted as if the more up to date stuff wasn't posted...

You're a moderator. So you come in here "covertly" sniping and posting bait. Then trying to weasel around it with "oh i didnt even say the word Ukraine," lol. I'll admit, you got me with the bait. I should have been better than that.

In case you haven't noticed, i was not trying to weasel around it, i was factually responding to the accusation that it was me who brought it up, even though it was brought up by several other people, some quite recently, while some other people responded with patently untrue statements that everyone moved on from the foreign policy stuff days ago and i brought it up again.

You? You're a mod. Do better.

If you haven't noticed, we have quite a light policy in handing out infractions over that.
With your backseat modding attempts here, should the staff consider that a public request for stricter derailment policy?

 

[Rocinante]

Yes, apparently you weren't up to date with the thread, yet went in, and at that specifically with arguments over how i should have also acted as if the more up to date stuff wasn't posted...

In case you haven't noticed, i was not trying to weasel around it, i was factually responding to the accusation that it was me who brought it up, even though it was brought up by several other people, some quite recently, while some other people responded with patently untrue statements that everyone moved on from the foreign policy stuff days ago and i brought it up again.

If you haven't noticed, we have quite a light policy in handing out infractions over that.
With your backseat modding attempts here, should the staff consider that a public request for stricter derailment policy?

This is one member telling another, who is in a position to know better, to do better.

Did I say you should receive an infraction? I'd be against that if you did. I'm against almost all infractions, even against those with whom I disagree.

I am telling you to do better. Simple as that. That's not backseat modding. You can post whatever you like. I'm just calling you out because you can and should behave more responsibly.

As should I, for having taken the bite on your shitty bait.

 

[Bacle]

No.

Admittedly, I was not as up to date with the thread and hadn't seen the one from almost a day ago, but still no.

Because people like me and @Bacle who talk about this stuff often, and are on opposite sides, were able to drop it and put it aside.

And we're just regular every day members.

You're a moderator. So you come in here "covertly" sniping and posting bait. Then trying to weasel around it with "oh i didnt even say the word Ukraine," lol. I'll admit, you got me with the bait. I should have been better than that.

You? You're a mod. Do better.

Don't try to get me to defend this shit that people are trying to pull here, you included.

The only reason that topic is even in this thread is because one of the isolationists Marduk is talking about couldn't resist posting a 'Help Maui or Help Ukraine' meme.

And Marduk is very right that many isolationists/anti-Ukraine folks will post memes shitting on Ukraine outside the Ukraine threads all they want, but then decry pushback as 'derailing', because they are trying to operate on a double standard of 'Shit on Ukraine=Any thread, support Ukraine=only containment threads'.

 

[Rocinante]

Don't try to get me to defend this shit that people are trying to pull here, you included.

The only reason that topic is even in this thread is because one of the isolationists Marduk is talking about couldn't resist posting a 'Help Maui or Help Ukraine' meme.

And Marduk is very right that many isolationists/anti-Ukraine folks will post memes shitting on Ukraine outside the Ukraine threads all they want, but then decry pushback as 'derailing', because they are trying to operate on a double standard of 'Shit on Ukraine=Any thread, support Ukraine=only containment threads'.

I was actually complimenting you my dude, because when people called out our derail, we stopped. Clearly I take that back now, as you just jumped right into it yourself.

 

[Bacle]

I was actually complimenting you my dude, because when people called out our derail, we stopped. Clearly I take that back now, as you just jumped right into it yourself.

You are the one who tagged me back into this debate, and that wasn't something I see as a compliment in the context of what is going on.

You are one of the one's who responded to Marduk's 'isolationist' posts by bringing up Ukraine again, don't try to get me involved to try to make it easier for you to dodge the confrontation with Marduk.

 

[Zachowon]

Can we all agree that this is a derail, one that happens a lot due to people doing what both Marduk and Bacle have said.
In which it seems anti Ukraine stuff is posted everywhere but when Ukraine gets defended it is an issue.

Let's cut this here and focus on that a DEMOCRAT stronghold state is being horrible.
Like always

 

[Husky_Khan]

Thoughts and Prayers to Lahaina Discussion thread in this dire hour.

 

[Marduk]

So trying to bring this back to the topic in a very unusual and productive direction - this, mentioned New Orleans mess, and also Mike Pence's "scandalous" comment regarding not caring about failing cities.
A certain pattern of a problem emerges here i think:

So, when the local government a Democrat stronghold of many decades does an oopsie (or few dozens of them more likely) and royally fucks up the response to some more or less natural disaster or crime (stereotypically it tends to be a broad law and order matter usually), and despite this stuff happening again and again the populations of such areas keep them Democrat strongholds regardless, what is everyone else supposed to say about it and why?
Can you help those who don't want to help themselves? Should you bother? Should you spend resources on it?

 

[Rocinante]

You are the one who tagged me back into this debate, and that wasn't something I see as a compliment in the context of what is going on.

You are one of the one's who responded to Marduk's 'isolationist' posts by bringing up Ukraine again, don't try to get me involved to try to make it easier for you to dodge the confrontation with Marduk.

I literally said I took the bait and should do better myself - twice.

If you haven't noticed, I'm not arguing about Ukraine since calling it out. I'm calling out how marduk should know better because regular members such as yourself were able to do better.

Those other posts should have dropped it, too.

Everyone derailing about Ukraine should drop it. Like I said, I've ever called MYSELF out twice. I'm not perfect.

Can we all agree that this is a derail, one that happens a lot due to people doing what both Marduk and Bacle have said.
In which it seems anti Ukraine stuff is posted everywhere but when Ukraine gets defended it is an issue.

Let's cut this here and focus on that a DEMOCRAT stronghold state is being horrible.
Like always

It's both sides.

I'm guilty of it. You're guilty of it. The others talking about it are guilty of it.

I do think it's fair to criticize spending on one thing and not on another that seems more important to me, but we as a community are unable to have this discussion without ot spiraling into the same old arguments.

So yes, we all need to drop it.

 

[Rocinante]

So trying to bring this back to the topic in a very unusual and productive direction - this, mentioned New Orleans mess, and also Mike Pence's "scandalous" comment regarding not caring about failing cities.
A certain pattern of a problem emerges here i think:

So, when the local government a Democrat stronghold of many decades does an oopsie (or few dozens of them more likely) and royally fucks up the response to some more or less natural disaster or crime, and despite this stuff happening again and again the populations of such areas keep them Democrat strongholds regardless, what is everyone else supposed to say about it any why?
Can you help those who don't want to help themselves? Should you bother? Should you spend resources on it?

My issue with this is that not everyone there voted for democrats.

Additionally, while voting for democrats is voting for incompetent fools, I don't think anyone was intentionally voting for "shut off the water and block all the exits during a major fire."

My point being: yes I support helping people who just lost everything. Family, pets, homes, everything they've ever owned.

I'm fine with us spending some money to help them.

I'm not a spend nothing sort of conservative. Things like bailing out communities after disasters is the exact kind of shit I support spending money on.

 

[Marduk]

My issue with this is that not everyone there voted for democrats.

But vast majority did, and the rest at least knew what kind of idiots they are surrounded by and what are the implications of that.

Additionally, while voting for democrats is voting for incompetent fools, I don't think anyone was intentionally voting for "shut off the water and block all the exits during a major fire."

We are however, at least hopefully, speaking of adults here.
When they voted about the whole water management system they have there, with its generous dose of political bullshit involved, did they give proper attention to except a certain kind of emergency that stereotypically requires large amounts of water from slow bureaucratic processes?

My point being: yes I support helping people who just lost everything. Family, pets, homes, everything they've ever owned.

I'm fine with us spending some money to help them.

I'm not a spend nothing sort of conservative. Things like bailing out communities after disasters is the exact kind of shit I support spending money on.

But what's the point if the result is going to be more of the same, some day another hurricane, fire or even mostly peaceful protest will come again and wreck the rebuilt stuff, and it will turn out even less of them even had insurance, because hey, the last few times shit happened the govt paid us off so they will probably do it again...

This option is spending money to keep status quo, which may be good for DNC, but for everyone else, it should be seen as a prime case of doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
When Democrat cronies play carelessly in their sandboxes and break their and other's toys while doing so, what kind of message does it give to just have the federal government pay off the damages for them and leave them to do it again?

 

[Rocinante]

But vast majority did, and the rest at least knew what kind of idiots they are surrounded by and what are the implications of that.

We are however, at least hopefully, speaking of adults here.
When they voted about the whole water management system they have there, with its generous dose of political bullshit involved, did they give proper attention to except a certain kind of emergency that stereotypically requires large amounts of water from slow bureaucratic processes?

But what's the point if the result is going to be more of the same, some day another hurricane, fire or even mostly peaceful protest will come again and wreck the rebuilt stuff, and it will turn out even less of them even had insurance, because hey, the last few times shit happened the govt paid us off so they will probably do it again...

This option is spending money to keep status quo, which may be good for DNC, but for everyone else, it should be seen as a prime case of doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
When Democrat cronies play carelessly in their sandboxes and break their and other's toys while doing so, what kind of message does it give to just have the federal government pay off the damages for them and leave them to do it again?

I'm not even arguing that the government should come anywhere close to replacing everything that's lost.

Enough to keep them alive and healthy.

Hell, I actually think outright sending $0 would actually be better than the $700 because at least that sends the message you're talking about here.

$700 is like the worst of both worlds. It doesnt do much to help, but it still keeps them a little happier with government handouts and likely still supporting democrats.

Though I did hear Biden was met with protesters and hecklers when he visited.

 

[Marduk]

I'm not even arguing that the government should come anywhere close to replacing everything that's lost.

Enough to keep them alive and healthy.

Hell, I actually think outright sending $0 would actually be better than the $700 because at least that sends the message you're talking about here.

$700 is like the worst of both worlds. It doesnt do much to help, but it still keeps them a little happier with government handouts and likely still supporting democrats.

Though I did hear Biden was met with protesters and hecklers when he visited.

Which is, pragmatically, another Democrat failure, in form of a half-measure. And if the people in question keep supporting DNC regardless of such treatment, what does that mean?