Meme Thread for Both Posting and Discussing Memes

[Skitzyfrenic]

Again with that Whataboutism. If you're going to bash on people for doing something, and then turn around and admit to doing the same thing yourself, how is it that this somehow defends your original attack? Think on that some.

Wasn't the original point in this chain about how Indigenous somehow get a pass from all the awful shit they got up to? Because they're portrayed as benign, but reading first hand accounts shows what awful people they could be and frequently were?

That was the meme, iirc. 'Indigenous People in History books: NOBLE SAVAGES! They were so noble and virtuous!' vs 'Indigenous People in First Hand Accounts: Praise the LORD and pass the ammunition.'

That's basically 'Indigenous People culturally get a pass for the awful shit they did because the awful shit gets ignored.'

If the Indigenous getting a pass is relevant, then not getting a pass for the same shit is also relevant.

Either way:
Going 'they did bad thing' and then admitting 'these people also did bad thing' doesn't erase the first people doing bad thing.

Not a single tribe, anywhere in the world, is innocent of wrong doing.

Not even the Lakota.

They are not special.

And yet, the wrong doings of the peoples who were here in the Americas before Europeans are ignored. To the point that large swathes of people see them as these 'noble savages' who 'avoided war' and played games of counting coup and lacrosse in place of violent resolution.

Given scalping being a thing, we know that's no where near true. But it's a 'negative stereotype' and bringing it up is racism.

For fucks sake, 'mohawk' is an Algonquin word meaning cannibal. You earn that. That's how taboo being a cannibal is, it isn't given out lightly or in jest. And Americans, I bet even you, personally, refer to an entire Iroquois tribe by the name their enemy gave them and then ignore the kind of shit you have to do to earn that name.

 

[Lord Sovereign]

You know, looking at this conversation, I’ll just offer my quick opinion.

Blot the left being absurd with history out for a moment, and consider the fate of the Aztecs. They were an expansionist and brutal empire that merrily engaged in human sacrifice and ritualised massacre.

The Spanish still did them dirty. And the smallpox that followed? Among the most regrettable tragedies in human history as far as I’m concerned.

In history very few are innocent, yet oh so very many are still victims.

 

[Scottty]

I think this is time for a CS Lewis quote:

There is, however, one respect m which America may have
affected not only imaginative but even philosophical thought.
If it did not create, it impressed on our minds more strongly,
the image of the Savage, or Natural Man. A place had, of course,
been prepared for him. Christians had depicted the naked
Adam, Stoics, the state of Nature, poets, the reign of Saturn.
But in America it might seem that you could catch glimpses of
some such thing actually going on. The 'Natural Man' is, of
course, an ambivalent image. He may be conceived as ideally
innocent. From that conception descend Montaigne's essay on
cannibals, Gonzalo's commonwealth m the Tempest, the good
'Salvage' in the Faerie Queene (vi iv, v, vi). Pope's 'reign of God',
and the primeval classless society of the Marxists. It is one of
the great myths. On the other hand, he might be conceived as
brutal, sub-human thence Caliban, the bad 'Salvages' of the
Faerie Queene , the state of nature as pictured by Hobbes,
and the 'Cave Man' of popular modern imagination. That is
another great myth.

 

[King Arts]

Wasn't the original point in this chain about how Indigenous somehow get a pass from all the awful shit they got up to? Because they're portrayed as benign, but reading first hand accounts shows what awful people they could be and frequently were?

That was the meme, iirc. 'Indigenous People in History books: NOBLE SAVAGES! They were so noble and virtuous!' vs 'Indigenous People in First Hand Accounts: Praise the LORD and pass the ammunition.'

That's basically 'Indigenous People culturally get a pass for the awful shit they did because the awful shit gets ignored.'

If the Indigenous getting a pass is relevant, then not getting a pass for the same shit is also relevant.

Either way:
Going 'they did bad thing' and then admitting 'these people also did bad thing' doesn't erase the first people doing bad thing.

Not a single tribe, anywhere in the world, is innocent of wrong doing.

Not even the Lakota.

They are not special.

And yet, the wrong doings of the peoples who were here in the Americas before Europeans are ignored. To the point that large swathes of people see them as these 'noble savages' who 'avoided war' and played games of counting coup and lacrosse in place of violent resolution.

Given scalping being a thing, we know that's no where near true. But it's a 'negative stereotype' and bringing it up is racism.

For fucks sake, 'mohawk' is an Algonquin word meaning cannibal. You earn that. That's how taboo being a cannibal is, it isn't given out lightly or in jest. And Americans, I bet even you, personally, refer to an entire Iroquois tribe by the name their enemy gave them and then ignore the kind of shit you have to do to earn that name.

I mean the difference is they were kinda genocided you know? Sure no group has not done bad things, it’s still a little fucked up to say in a conversation about the holocaust “hey you know the Jews also did bad things to Germans and other nations they lived in that weren’t their own.”

You see why that is right?

 

[Scottty]

I mean the difference is they were kinda genocided you know? Sure no group has not done bad things, it’s still a little fucked up to say in a conversation about the holocaust “hey you know the Jews also did bad things to Germans and other nations they lived in that weren’t their own.”

You see why that is right?

Jews in Eastern Europe were not cannibals, nor abducting people and torturing them to death, nor any of the other things the various Red Indian tribes reportedly did both to other Indians and to white settlers.

 

[King Arts]

Jews in Eastern Europe were not cannibals, nor abducting people and torturing them to death, nor any of the other things the various Red Indian tribes reportedly did both to other Indians and to white settlers.

No you are right they did not eat people they just supported communist rebellion.

 

[Captain X]

If you're going to keep bringing up your personal ethnic/tribal historic grievance, remember that this isn't a lefty site.

People will get sick of it, and start pushing back.

And it's not like I brought it up out of no where, is it? Again, maybe think a little before you feel the need to bash on Natives.

 

[Captain X]

Wasn't the original point in this chain about how Indigenous somehow get a pass from all the awful shit they got up to?

No, what started it was this meme:

Followed up by this statement:

In general I suppose, the more the Left puts any pre-colonial people on a pedestal, the more horrible they probably were in reality.

Followed up by this statement:

What about what such tribes did to many white settlers, some of whom their tribal leaders had formal peace treaties with?

Not a single tribe, anywhere in the world, is innocent of wrong doing.

Not even the Lakota.

They are not special.

Where did I claim this? I only brought this up because of the bit about treaties, because the US government had a treaty with the Lakota to keep Americans out of our lands, which were defined and agreed upon, and yet no attempt was ever made to do so.

For fucks sake, 'mohawk' is an Algonquin word meaning cannibal. You earn that. That's how taboo being a cannibal is, it isn't given out lightly or in jest.

Cannibalism is even more taboo among Natives than it is among white folks. Among Europeans, there's a kind of grudging acceptance of necessity if a person is starving and the one they fed upon was already dead, and the worst that will really happen is that they might get socially ostracized, but among the tribes I know, there is no such acceptance, and anyone partaking in human flesh was killed and usually chopped up into little pieces to make sure they wouldn't come back somehow.

And Americans, I bet even you, personally, refer to an entire Iroquois tribe by the name their enemy gave them and then ignore the kind of shit you have to do to earn that name.

Pfft! People call us Sioux all the time. Where do you think that name came from?

In any case, this is all missing the point, which has already been made multiple times.

 

[Skitzyfrenic]

No, what started it was this meme:

Okay, wow. That meme went right over your head, didn't it?

The pre-colonial natives modern-culturally get a 'pass' for all the fucked up shit they do because the bad parts are buried and sanitized when you learn about them in school. That's the message of the meme.

Hence the 'oh poor blue Avatar boys looking so pitiable and nobly enduring the slings of fate.' Pre-colonial natives are portrayed as the noble, harmoniously living with nature, super chads of awesome and virtue.

But once you read first hand accounts instead of the very sanitized accounts and actually learn about the pre-colonial natives: 'Well, time to yee fucking haw over all of them there savages and bring them civilization!'

Where did I claim this? I only brought this up because of the bit about treaties, because the US government had a treaty with the Lakota to keep Americans out of our lands, which were defined and agreed upon, and yet no attempt was ever made to do so.

The US had a treaty with Canada and Mexico in the same time period to stay out of their lands, defined and agreed upon, and no attempt was ever made to do so.

Worse happened to the 'Five Civilized Tribes' when the Treaty done with them was completely ignored resulting in the Trail of Tears. And that was the precedent that lead to ignoring the Treaty with the Lakota and basically every plains tribe.

The Lakota aren't special. Manifest Destiny was fucking awful to just about anyone who wasn't white or, funnily enough, black.

And I also find it incredibly dubious that the Lakota never betrayed their word and raided villages and towns they swore not to. Especially other tribes, let alone white settlers.

They were a tribal warrior culture. Not keeping your word and raiding each other was the norm.

I mean the Ojibwe peoples called them 'little snakes' before it mutated through French and then got shortened to Sioux. You get called a snake, a rattlesnake specifically, for a reason.

And given what tribal warfare is like it's probably because the Lakota were aggressive and untrustworthy assholes to outsiders, just like every other tribe that ever existed.

The Ojibwe were probably untrustworthy assholes too. Because that's what tribal peoples almost universally are to outsiders.

Cannibalism is even more taboo among Natives than it is among white folks.

Then it must extra mean something that the eastern most Iroquois tribe was still actively called Cannibals by the Algonquin when white people showed up.

Pfft! People call us Sioux all the time. Where do you think that name came from?

It's a shortening of a French bastardization of the Ojibwe word for 'little snakes.' Specifically 'little rattlesnakes.' Aggressive and 'saber rattling' would fit any number of warrior tribal nations.

[Lakota/Dakota means 'ally' btw, it isn't anymore your tribe's name than Sioux is. The nation they belonged to was the Seven Council Fires. Where each tribe was Lakota to the other.]

It could also be derived from an Algonquin word meaning something like 'speaker of a foreign language.'

[Current Ojibwe term for the Sioux is Bwaanag/'Roosters' and that's presumably more related to culinary manners as a touchstone.]

There is a big difference between calling your enemy 'little snake' because they were aggressive and untrustworthy assholes, calling your other main enemy 'big snakes' (the Iroquois in general were called this by the Ojibwe) because they were even more aggressive and even bigger untrustworthy assholes, and calling them Cannibal.

Which according to you was an immensely huge taboo, even more than among Europeans.

You don't call people that willy nilly in either culture group. Not without evidence.

And that is a huge, huge, huge deal in comparison to being called a snake. Magnitude worse, easily.

Maybe the Mohawk cleaned up after getting gang banged by everyone for being man-eaters, but they had to have done it enough to warrant calling them that.

In any case, this is all missing the point, which has already been made multiple times.

The point that we culturally and scholastically memory hole all the awful things Indigenous peoples did to each other and to early white settlers and how it isn't bashing to bring up that they did fucked up shit and how learning that they did fucked up shit might drastically change how you view the Indigenous people?

The point you keep arguing against with counter-points that boil down to 'oh the whites were assholes to my tribe! So that means that bringing up what awful people they were is bashing!'? Might as well 'reeeeeee' about how it's racist next.

Which in no way shape or form doesn't mean that the awful shit the Lakota did get up to against other pre-colonial natives, and later white settlers didn't happen.

Yeah. A bad turn happened to the Lakota. Absolutely. They did not deserve what happened to them. I am with you there. But bad things happening to the Lakota does not mean the Lakota did not do bad things to other people.

 

[LordsFire]

Okay, wow. That meme went right over your head, didn't it?

Thank you for putting this all so well.

 

[IndyFront]

 

[Scottty]

When you have a "raiding tribe" -ie a people whose entire livelihood is based on attacking and looting other people- living nearby, peace with them isn't really possible, because they will not be at peace with you.

And the settlers making an alliance with the non-raiding tribes to work together to solve the problem?

Of course a Leftist is going to reee at that.

 

[Cherico]

he's not completely wrong.

 

[Captain X]

Okay, wow. That meme went right over your head, didn't it?

The pre-colonial natives modern-culturally get a 'pass' for all the fucked up shit they do because the bad parts are buried and sanitized when you learn about them in school. That's the message of the meme.

Hence the 'oh poor blue Avatar boys looking so pitiable and nobly enduring the slings of fate.' Pre-colonial natives are portrayed as the noble, harmoniously living with nature, super chads of awesome and virtue.

But once you read first hand accounts instead of the very sanitized accounts and actually learn about the pre-colonial natives: 'Well, time to yee fucking haw over all of them there savages and bring them civilization!'



The US had a treaty with Canada and Mexico in the same time period to stay out of their lands, defined and agreed upon, and no attempt was ever made to do so.

Worse happened to the 'Five Civilized Tribes' when the Treaty done with them was completely ignored resulting in the Trail of Tears. And that was the precedent that lead to ignoring the Treaty with the Lakota and basically every plains tribe.

The Lakota aren't special. Manifest Destiny was fucking awful to just about anyone who wasn't white or, funnily enough, black.

And I also find it incredibly dubious that the Lakota never betrayed their word and raided villages and towns they swore not to. Especially other tribes, let alone white settlers.

They were a tribal warrior culture. Not keeping your word and raiding each other was the norm.

I mean the Ojibwe peoples called them 'little snakes' before it mutated through French and then got shortened to Sioux. You get called a snake, a rattlesnake specifically, for a reason.

And given what tribal warfare is like it's probably because the Lakota were aggressive and untrustworthy assholes to outsiders, just like every other tribe that ever existed.

The Ojibwe were probably untrustworthy assholes too. Because that's what tribal peoples almost universally are to outsiders.



Then it must extra mean something that the eastern most Iroquois tribe was still actively called Cannibals by the Algonquin when white people showed up.



It's a shortening of a French bastardization of the Ojibwe word for 'little snakes.' Specifically 'little rattlesnakes.' Aggressive and 'saber rattling' would fit any number of warrior tribal nations.

[Lakota/Dakota means 'ally' btw, it isn't anymore your tribe's name than Sioux is. The nation they belonged to was the Seven Council Fires. Where each tribe was Lakota to the other.]

It could also be derived from an Algonquin word meaning something like 'speaker of a foreign language.'

[Current Ojibwe term for the Sioux is Bwaanag/'Roosters' and that's presumably more related to culinary manners as a touchstone.]

There is a big difference between calling your enemy 'little snake' because they were aggressive and untrustworthy assholes, calling your other main enemy 'big snakes' (the Iroquois in general were called this by the Ojibwe) because they were even more aggressive and even bigger untrustworthy assholes, and calling them Cannibal.

Which according to you was an immensely huge taboo, even more than among Europeans.

You don't call people that willy nilly in either culture group. Not without evidence.

And that is a huge, huge, huge deal in comparison to being called a snake. Magnitude worse, easily.

Maybe the Mohawk cleaned up after getting gang banged by everyone for being man-eaters, but they had to have done it enough to warrant calling them that.



The point that we culturally and scholastically memory hole all the awful things Indigenous peoples did to each other and to early white settlers and how it isn't bashing to bring up that they did fucked up shit and how learning that they did fucked up shit might drastically change how you view the Indigenous people?

The point you keep arguing against with counter-points that boil down to 'oh the whites were assholes to my tribe! So that means that bringing up what awful people they were is bashing!'? Might as well 'reeeeeee' about how it's racist next.

Which in no way shape or form doesn't mean that the awful shit the Lakota did get up to against other pre-colonial natives, and later white settlers didn't happen.

Yeah. A bad turn happened to the Lakota. Absolutely. They did not deserve what happened to them. I am with you there. But bad things happening to the Lakota does not mean the Lakota did not do bad things to other people.

The sad thing is that you are so obsessed with trying to argue against me that you've actually made my point for me, and have just completely lost sight of what it is exactly that you're arguing about. Go back, read what was said, and get back to me when you're actually ready to have a conversation.

 

[Scottty]

 

[Rocinante]

Why don't you guys take your annoying bickering about natives and make a thread about it so we can all enjoy memes in the meme thread?

 

[Skitzyfrenic]

Spoiler

White folks weren't always the nicest people either, you know. Maybe look at what happened at Sand Creek, for example.

It isn't just that they killed those Natives, who were under a flag of truce, it was the things they did to their bodies afterward.

And it was called a "battle" until fairly recently.

Oh, and playing the "whatabout" game isn't helping you or the meme any.

My tribe never violated any treaty it made, but the treaties did get violated.

Again with that Whataboutism. If you're going to bash on people for doing something, and then turn around and admit to doing the same thing yourself, how is it that this somehow defends your original attack? Think on that some.

And to people on here in general - before you start bashing on Natives, maybe keep in mind you have at least a few of them on here with you.

I never claimed any such thing. Go back and look over what I said and what was said that I was responding to. Hell, just the last thing was ridiculous, which was about Natives breaking treaties when it's a well-known meme among us more Libertarian-leaning types that the government can't be trusted specifically because of all the treaties they made and then broke with the various tribes.

And it's not like I brought it up out of no where, is it? Again, maybe think a little before you feel the need to bash on Natives.

The sad thing is that you are so obsessed with trying to argue against me that you've actually made my point for me, and have just completely lost sight of what it is exactly that you're arguing about. Go back, read what was said, and get back to me when you're actually ready to have a conversation.

Okay. So.

The cruelties of white people inflicted upon the Indigenous people were irrelevant. You were the one who started the 'whataboutism' by bringing up white people as the antagonists, and then refused to acknowledge that the people you are indeed holding up as special, the Lakota, were gigantic assholes. Because they were a tribe of raiding tribal warriors, and all raiding tribal warrior societies were nothing but gigantic assholes.

Of course, I made the point you wanted to make by reeeeeeeing about 'bashing the Indigenous peoples' by telling the fucking truth. The point that you made that was moving the goalposts and in no way shape or form actually constituted an argument. Because I was acknowledging your contextually irrelevant, but incredibly obvious point.

The argument, the original point, the fucking meme itself, was 'Indigenous people get a pass for being gigantic fucking assholes. Because of what schools teach you. And your opinion on them will change when you actually learn about them.' Not that white people weren't assholes, which is where your original point would have mattered, if someone had claimed so. As that wasn't the discussion, no matter how much you wished it to be, your whataboutism was rightfully corrected by several people.

With the other follow ups about how the more the lefties fellated the tribe the more likely they were more awful than the average, and then accounting for the atrocities the natives committed against white people. And how that all got memory holed on a regular basis.

The actual point that you never addressed in any of your posts. You even went so far as to attack the character of several people, stating the felt the need to 'bash' the Indigenous peoples.

Apparently you need it spelled out that bad things absolutely happened to the Indigenous people, but that doesn't mean they didn't do bad things.

NO ONE disagrees that bad things happened to Indigenous people. I didn't see a single person say the Indigenous peoples deserved it or that the Indigenous people did not get fucked. The closest was Bacle saying there was a reason why other natives helped the Spanish kill the Aztecs. Or Cherico saying how the Spanish were a regional improvement over the Aztecs, which wasn't saying much. And both of them acknowledged on some level that the whites weren't good to the natives. And both is a fucking stretch to the 'they deserved it' point.

When LordsFire attempted to bring the argument back on track, you completely blew off the point and later attacked his character when he warned you off from bringing up the Lakota like they were special.

People were 'bashing' the Indigenous peoples by telling the fucking truth, that the Indigenous peoples were not some peace loving, noble, naturalist saviors whose way of life was so superior. Which was the message of the meme and the follow up comments were also about.

And you 'reeeeeeeeee'd and emoji'd like you had a fucking argument. Sure, you did, I'll be generous, but it was irrelevant to the discussion. Because it moved goalposts, did a 'what about?,' and then tried to convince everyone else they were the ones doing it, all while making ad hominem attacks.

Maybe if you argued in good faith instead of gaslighting, making ad hominem attacks, and moving goal posts we could have a conversation.

Why don't you guys take your annoying bickering about natives and make a thread about it so we can all enjoy memes in the meme thread?

Look at the title of the thread, mate.

This is the thread for both posting and discussing memes. The native discussion, especially when the meme about natives is actually mentioned, like every single one of my posts on it, is on topic so long as it talks about the sanitized schooling we get vs the reality of the subject. I'm on topic.

Another soon to be dead thread doesn't need to be made. I suppose you could also go make a thread for posting, no discussing memes. You know, being the change you want to see in the world. But I'd bet that'd also be a soon to be dead thread. Which is probably why you don't want to do it yourself.

And this happens like once every 5 pages with the next three pages being based on that meme. Every single time. And every single time someone goes 'meme thread!' even when the discussion is on topic because a meme and it's message are being discussed.

This is a politically charged forum. The meme was politically charged because of the culture war. C'mon bruh. Of course it was going to spawn pages of discussion with long posts.

 

[mrttao]

Okay. So.

Didn't captain X say before he identifies as native american or something because his ancestor was one?

Also, attacking people character while failing to make an argument is just his standard MO. That is all he ever does.

 

[Skitzyfrenic]

Also, attacking people character while failing to make an argument is just his standard MO. That is all he ever does.

Thanks for the heads up. Still learning people on the forum.

Edit: I lurked for a long time. And mostly paid attention to some BT stuff.

 

[Captain X]

Okay. So.

The cruelties of white people inflicted upon the Indigenous people were irrelevant. You were the one who started the 'whataboutism' by bringing up white people as the antagonists, and then refused to acknowledge that the people you are indeed holding up as special

Because I'm not, oh anointed one. I never once claimed such. I've also not been the only one play the whatabout game. The hilarious part is that all of you have while essentially making my point for you.

the Lakota, were gigantic assholes. Because they were a tribe of raiding tribal warriors, and all raiding tribal warrior societies were nothing but gigantic assholes.

We weren't always the nicest people, but we were hardly "nothing but gigantic assholes either, And as several of you have pointed out, we were also hardly the only ones who were not the nicest of people

Of course, I made the point you wanted to make by reeeeeeeing about 'bashing the Indigenous peoples' by telling the fucking truth.

It's hilarious that you write a giant wall of text where you essentially whine that the Native has not just gone along with a meme suggesting his people deserved to get killed and then claim I'm the one reeing.

The point that you made that was moving the goalposts and in no way shape or form actually constituted an argument. Because I was acknowledging your contextually irrelevant, but incredibly obvious point.

In what way did I ever move goalposts, oh anointed one?

With the other follow ups about how the more the lefties fellated the tribe the more likely they were more awful than the average, and then accounting for the atrocities the natives committed against white people. And how that all got memory holed on a regular basis.

Strange, I tend to remember things in basically the opposite way. Which is to say that the atrocities committed against Natives generally got "memory-holed" or mischaracterized as battles, while anything perpetuated against white colonists by Natives was generally kept like a book of grudges and was used as justification for anything done to the Natives. Which is something I see in that meme as well.

You even went so far as to attack the character of several people, stating the felt the need to 'bash' the Indigenous peoples.

Because that's what I see. And I call it like I see it.

Apparently you need it spelled out that bad things absolutely happened to the Indigenous people, but that doesn't mean they didn't do bad things.

And as I've repeatedly pointed out, I never claimed any such thing. Yet you continue to ignore this, along with basically everything else I've actually said, other than to hunt for points to try to lecture me on.

When LordsFire attempted to bring the argument back on track, you completely blew off the point and later attacked his character when he warned you off from bringing up the Lakota like they were special.

I only ever even named my tribe because I got asked, oh anointed one. And I got asked because I mentioned that my tribe never violated any treaties it was a part of, and I only brought that up because LordsFire brought Native breaking treaties against whites as a talking point.

As for the other shit:

me: "hey, maybe think about this shit before you bash on Natives."
you: "Reeee!!! Attacking his character!!!"

Look at the title of the thread, mate.

Yeah, I'm the one who made it. Aren't I fucking awesome?

Didn't captain X say before he identifies as native american or something because his ancestor was one?

I'm literally a registered member of a Federally recognized tribe.

Also, attacking people character while failing to make an argument is just his standard MO. That is all he ever does.

Wow, that's hilarious coming from you. The fact is, I've caught you putting your foot in your mouth and didn't much care for me pointing that out. The fact is that there is always an argument, even if you don't agree with it, and if I ever attack someone's character, it's over something they did or said, and I'm just calling it like I see it.