LGBT and the US Conservative Movement

[The Immortal Watch Dog]

Or mainstream conservatism has evolved on the large scale, moved on from just catering to trad/social cons, and embraced the LGBTs who think the Left has lost their minds on some issues.

Richard Grenell wouldn't have worked for Trump if Trump shared the views you did, and he was one of the only people besides Pompeo not to turn on Trump.

Then it's not conservative lol.

Just admit it and admit the American right is without an identity right now and it's heading towards right wing national populism and nativitism and because people like you were raised to be afraid of those things you are clinging to a dead ideology out of reactionary panic.

Its cool brother, just come join us. We don't feel ashamed about anything and we organize and stand up for each other. Things you guys never did. You won't feel so alone anymore!

Been a moment. But that’s on the elected officials, pundits and compromises on electability and following “at least we aren’t democrats!”

1998, I remember it well.

Now it's all compromising and smiling broadly and losing smugly while going "huuurrr at least we aren't racist"

 

[FriedCFour]

No, I won't explain the strawman you have concocted, because that's what it is, a strawman designed by trad/social cons to try to twist the debate based on false premises.

What’s the false premise here? What’s being twisted? How is it a strawman?

 

[Rocinante]

Bacle is right. Every time a right winger goes on an anti gay rant, it hurts the right.

That fight is over. Move on. You might not like it but you need moderates like me and bacle if you want to win.

Do you WANT to push them toward democrats? This is the time to widen tents, not narrow them. Gay conservatives and gay-friendly conservatives will wreck a big advantage that the left has.

I feel like some of you want to lose and make sure they keep that advantage, because something something bible sin blah blah blah.

Every time I hear an anti gay rant I think twice about voting for republicans.

 

[FriedCFour]

Bacle is right. Every time a right winger goes on an anti gay rant, it hurts the right.

That fight is over. Move on. You might not like it but you need moderates like me and bacle if you want to win.

I’d rather lose to be honest. What you want isn’t winning to me, and a win for me isn’t just electoral wins but keeping the traditional spirit of America and the west alive, making men stronger and well read and embracing that life. If that is dead I see zero point in doing anything. Every man that rejects liberalism is a win to me.

 

[FriedCFour]

It’s a bizarre threat. “Stop speaking your beliefs, shut up and die off or ill vote blue!!!”

 

[Rocinante]

I’d rather lose to be honest. What you want isn’t winning to me, and a win for me isn’t just electoral wins but keeping the traditional spirit of America and the west alive, making men stronger and well read and embracing that life. If that is dead I see zero point in doing anything. Every man that rejects liberalism is a win to me.

If you think about it, two gay dudes is the most manly thing because there are no chicks involved.


Okay okay, jokes aside. You'd rather have democrats run everything, than gay people have equal rights, and get everything else you want?

It's a compromise. You don't like gays for some reason. You don't have to... But you can live and let live, and build a strong coalition. You can say "I don't agree with your lifestyle but I agree with your freedom to live it."

But you'd rather push people away and lose. Okay.

 

[The Immortal Watch Dog]

Bacle is right. Every time a right winger goes on an anti gay rant, it hurts the right.

That fight is over. Move on. You might not like it but you need moderates like me and bacle if you want to win.

Do you WANT to push them toward democrats? This is the time to widen tents, not narrow them. Gay conservatives and gay-friendly conservatives will wreck a big advantage that the left has.

I feel like some of you want to lose and make sure they keep that advantage, because something something bible sin blah blah blah.

Every time I hear an anti gay rant I think twice about voting for republicans.

They represent 1% of the population. This isn't a legitimate argument, neither side needs the gay vote so long as they move the needle a tiny bit with literally any other demographic and much as soccer moms clutch their pearls about LGBT people if you ran an add featuring Yaniv and frag queen Story hour and the "we need to normalize strap on for toddlers so little girls can experience what it feels like to have a penis".

I guarantee you most of the soccer mom vote would go to you. Irregardless of their politics.

No one needs a minority that small.

They are catered too entirely out of cynicism and are mercilessly exploited by both sides.

The right should want gay people for the same reason the right should want everyone else. Because the idea is to destroy the American left and create a dueling right wing party system.

But beyond that? They matter as much as Argentine Americans like me or Samoans matter.

Well no. That's not true, we can actually force the political spectrum to realign to cater to our whims once we reach 2%

The LGBT never has, not without being used.

 

[Rocinante]

It’s a bizarre threat. “Stop speaking your beliefs, shut up and die off or ill vote blue!!!”

No no no, it's literally stop supporting things that I think are toxic or I'll vote blue.

I came to the right with Trump because he doesn't give a damn and supported other things that I care about.

They represent 1% of the population. This isn't a legitimate argument, neither side needs the gsy vote so long as they move the needle a tiny bit with literally any other demographic and much as soccer moms clutch their pearls about LGBT people if you ran an add featuring Yaniv and frag queen Story hour and the "we need to normalize strap on for toddlers so little girls can experience what it feels like to have a penis".

I guarantee you most of the soccer mom vote would go to you. Irregardless of their politics.

No one needs a minority that small.

They are catered too entirely out of cynicism and ate mercilessly exploited by both sides.

The right should want gay people for the same reason the right should want everyone else. Because the idea is to destroy the American left and create a dueling right wing party system.

But beyond that? They matter as much as Argentine Americans like me or Samoans matter.

Well no. That's not true, we can actually force the political spectrum to realign to cater to our whims once we reach 2%

The LGBT never has, not without being used.

They represent 1% of the population..idk how accurate that Actual number is, but you don't have to be gay to support them having equal rights. I'm not gay but I support them.. So do A LOT of other people. And you just push them into the democrats hands with this shit just trying to fight a fight that's already been lost years ago.

 

[The Immortal Watch Dog]

It’s a bizarre threat. “Stop speaking your beliefs, shut up and die off or ill vote blue!!!”

Stop fighting for what I supposedly believe in! Allow me to capitulate or I'll..capitulate!

The proper response to that is derisive laughter

They represent 1% of the population..idk how accurate that Actual number is, but you don't have to be gay to support them having equal rights. I'm not gay but I support them.

And run some honest adds about forcing America's daughters to compete with Boys twice their size and go into detail about groomers and watch most people abandon the LGBT in a heart beat.

Grow up.

Politics based.on emotion and pearl clutching has destroyed America.

 

[Bacle]

No no no, it's literally stop supporting things that I think are toxic or I'll vote blue.

I came to the right with Trump because he doesn't give a damn and supported other things that I care about.

Oh, personally, I won't vote blue again because of idiots like Fried.

I may however simply vote third party or not vote at all. More likely the latter because the 2020 election showed how who counts the votes matters more than who actually votes.

Edit: Though I guess it does work with the LGBTs as a whole; they can easily go back to voting blue if people like Fried become the mainstay of, or even major voice in, current the GOP/Right.

 

[Rocinante]

Stop fighting for what I supposedly believe in! Allow me to capitulate or I'll..capitulate!

The proper response to that is derisive laughter


And run some honest adds about forcing America's daughters to compete with Boys twice their size and go into detail about groomers and watch most people abandon the LGBT in a heart beat.

Grow up.

Politics based.on emotion and pearl clutching has destroyed America.

To be clear, I don't support all the trans loony shit that's happening.

I support same sex couples having the same rights as any other couples.

Simple as that.

The trans movement has been all sorts of weird and fucked up.

 

[The Immortal Watch Dog]

Oh, personally, I won't vote blue again because of idiots like Fried.

I may however simply vote third party or not vote at all. More likely the latter because the 2020 election showed how who counts the votes matters more than who actually votes.

yes vote third party! Accelerate!

It makes it easier for us on the true right.

To be clear, I don't support all the trans loony shit that's happening.

I support same sex couples having the same rights as any other couples.

Simple as that.

The trans movement has been all sorts of weird and fucked up.

And I agree with you. But my point is, the argument that "we are only dealing with trannies battering our daughters in sports because we gave too much ground to all LGB people" is a very easy leap.

And its one easily sold.

 

[Rocinante]

Oh, personally, I won't vote blue again because of idiots like Fried.

I may however simply vote third party or not vote at all. More likely the latter because the 2020 election showed how who counts the votes matters more than who actually votes.

Edit: Though I guess it does work with the LGBTs as a whole; they can easily go back to voting blue if people like Fried become the mainstay of, or even major voice in, current the GOP/Right.

No I'll likely never vote blue again no matter what happens myself. Doesn't mean I'm loyal to the GOP though. If they become as toxic to me as the democrats, I'll just abstain or vote 3rd party. I was just making a point there. The left has burned too many bridges for me to ever actually go back to them.

 

[Rocinante]

yes vote third party! Accelerate!

It makes it easier for us on the true right.


And I agree with you. But my point is, the argument that "we are only dealing with trannies battering our daughters in sports because we gave too much ground to all LGB people" is a very easy leap.

And its one easily sold.

So I've said before that I think there IS merit to the slippery slope "fallacy," and you've just nailed it.

We wouldn't have this crazy trans stuff, had we not given ground to the LGB part of the LGBT group.

BUT I think that it was worth it. We can still say no and be against the trans stuff, while being okay with LGB having equal rights.

It allowed the goal posts to shift. We can still stand our ground and say no.

Now this isn't to say I have a problem with trans people. As individuals, whatever, live how you want as long as you aren't hurting others. But trans culture and trans politics? Abso-fucking-lutely a problem, and it does hurt others. (Like hormone therapy for children.. that's child abuse.)

 

[FriedCFour]

No no no, it's literally stop supporting things that I think are toxic or I'll vote blue.

I don’t think embracing religion is toxic though. Why do you find it toxic? The interesting thing here is that I mostly get ad hominem attacks and arguments about how it’s not strategic. Little actual debate on the ideas for some reason.

 

[Rocinante]

I don’t think embracing religion is toxic though.

"Hate the sin, not the sinner,"

You can be religious as you want and still accept gays because you can be religious as it gets and still respect people who don't follow the religion.

You can say, "hey, we have a lot of the same goals even though we disagree on lifestyles. We should work together to further those goals," because guess what? There are a lot of gay people/gay "allies" out there who support things like the second amendment, the first amendment, cutting taxes, fixing the budget, etc.

 

[FriedCFour]

Hate the sin, not the sinner,"

You can be religious as you want and still accept gays because you can be religious as it gets and still respect people who don't follow the religion.

You can say, "hey, we have a lot of the same goals even though we disagree on lifestyles. We should work together to further those goals," because guess what? There are a lot of gay people/gay "allies" out there who support things like the second amendment, the first amendment, cutting taxes, fixing the budget, etc.

Yes but I also value traditional relationships, gender roles, masculinity and femininity, and oppose hedonism and the break down of the overarching Christian social order that ran through America from its founding and it’s hard to reconcile that with LGBT political positions, much of the ideas around it and it’s overarching culture and influence. I don’t hate them, I can find common ground on those issues you mentioned, for the rare person that agrees with all that and is LGBT I wouldn’t reject them, but I’m not going to give up on all of that for any reason nor do I see why I should. It’s a sort of cowardice to do so just to try and win people over, and I do hate that. Like, I will happily talk to those who don’t believe that, foster friendships with them, respect them, so long as they can do the same for me.

There is honestly nothing I love more than talking, not just typing stuff out to a faceless and voiceless person, but actually speaking with someone who disagrees with me but will listen to what I say and put forward what they say, and having a conversation about ideas and their validity. It’s how I learn and have my ideas and beliefs tested and can refine them, and find new things to read or look into I hadn’t thought of or overlooked. It’s weird for me to see people say I need to do that for them, respect and listen and tolerate them, all of which I can do just fine, but I’m supposed to just shut up and no longer say anything about those things or try and make arguments for them, that my beliefs and my positions and me, I’m not worthy of respect, tolerance, or to be listened to because of what I think and what I believe, until I get with their program and give all that up.

 

[The Immortal Watch Dog]

We wouldn't have this crazy trans stuff, had we not given ground to the LGB part of the LGBT group.

If you're a groyper or a tradcon or a paleocon pointing to the mountain of corpses and the legions of CSA survivors that arise from the alphabet soup and going "are you sure about that?" Is real easy to do and then it's awful easy for them to say "my god is a god of love and these people embrace a lifestyle that violently opposed to love and feeds on self hatred and I want nothing to do with it and I want my society to have nothing to do with it"

And thats the problem at the end of the day Roci. The LGBT movement is a death cult. One that glorifies self harm, self alienation, the rejection of your loved ones and self debasement and as a right winger I want gays, lesbians and bisexuals to join my clubhouse.

But pride culture is a monstrosity that kills LGB people and should be opposed at every turn and its very easy to understand @FriedCFour point when you look at it from that angle rather than strawmanning him.

I may not agree with him but to blindly dismiss his point only serves to prove it.

 

[Abhorsen]

Ah yes, it's a convoluted plot by male pedophiles to mutilate themselves and destroy their libido to rape boys and girls. While that does happen the more logical conclusion that doesn't involve making excuses for a demographic is

Most trannies are pedos.

It's really not that complicated. All one has to do is claim one is trans, then you're trans now. No need to transition. And given that we are selecting for the fucked up section of the populace, and how rare being trans is (or more accurately was, before it happened

They were so thoroughly excised from the LGB.community in the 70s that it was normal normal adult councilors in school to punish students for objecting to their gay friends fucking adults when I was a teenager.

"No! Stop being a bigot! It's perfectly normal for a seventeen year old.boy to have bareback sex with a 46 year old man! It's how they learn to feel comfortable with themselves"


The damage control you are doing is regurgitating a PR spin that no one believes anymore.

Funny you mention the 70s, because that was when Nambla was actually trying to make inroads (more like mid-late 70s), before being tossed in the 80s. Since then, the LGBT community made a lot of strides getting rid of those, and denormalizing it. Basically, prior to '69, there was no gay community at all, other than horde of degeneracy. So my guess was your counselor just thought that was normal (as up until recently (at the time) it had been). But in the 70s with long term gay relationships becoming more common, degeneracy lowered and continued to lower in the coming decades. The stopping of this is very real as well.

When was the last time American conservatives conserved anything?

Hell the fact that the New Right exists at all is proof of how much they've failed.

Honestly, other than being gay, gay rights has been a huge win for conservative family values. Gays went from being homeless lechers to having marriages and adopting kids in about 45 years. Though, admittedly, you can't give any credit to the conservatives for this, so... Your point still stands.

Ah yes, it's a convoluted plot by male pedophiles to mutilate themselves and destroy their libido to rape boys and girls. While that does happen the more logical conclusion that doesn't involve making excuses for a demographic is

Most trannies are pedos.

Given that almost all of the pedos barely transition at all, and we have evidence that 1 in 50 men in a british prison transitioned, I'm inclined to go the other way. Also, do you have any evidence that pedos make up a majority of trans people? Cause that's incredibly unlikely.

They represent 1% of the population. This isn't a legitimate argument, neither side needs the gay vote so long as they move the needle a tiny bit with literally any other demographic and much as soccer moms clutch their pearls about LGBT people if you ran an add featuring Yaniv and frag queen Story hour and the "we need to normalize strap on for toddlers so little girls can experience what it feels like to have a penis".

No, they actually represent about 5-10% of the population. In fact, in the 2020 election, 7% of the voters identified as LGBT, and of that, only 61% voted Biden, the worst showing of a democratic presidential candidate since it's been tracked (i.e. since 1996). In an alternate world where there's a 50/50 split everywhere, Trump apparently wins.

The LGBT movement is a death cult at the end of the day. One that glorifies self harm, self alienation, the rejection of your loved ones and self debasement and as a right winger I want gays, lesbians and bisexuals to join my clubhouse.

But pride culture is a monstrosity that kills LGB people and should be opposed at every turn

So it wasn't, but now it is, is how I'd put it (though I also wouldn't call it a death cult). Up until 2015ish, it faithfully advocated for gay rights and successfully won them, and Pride was a big part of that (being out publicly is necessary to avoid the usual attack of LGBT don't exist). But now Pride should go the way of St Patrick's Day, and just be a one day celebration that doesn't mean a lot, but is fun to do.

 

[LordsFire]

So I've been wanting to stay out of politics going forward, but this issue is one I cannot ignore. I am someone who considers myself bi and someone who understands how bad the Right has been on this issue.

Any time someone on the Right goes off against same-sex marriage, or uses 'gay' as a negative descriptor for things, they are actively making it harder to get people on the Right elected.

It really is that simple.

Religious rants and scare tactics about 'most gays are pedos' only make the Right look more like the monsters the Left paints us to be.

'Social/trad cons' who claim to care about trying to grow the Right, win more elections, and take back parts of the culture from the Left, need to realize this is a battle they lost long ago, and every time they try to fight or debate it again, they actively hurt the larger goals of the Right.

What Trad/Social cons need to do is to, well...generally shut the fuck up on anything related to LGBT stuff and keep their shit to themselves.

Well, that's an interesting almost-polite rant.

One question:

What is your foundation for a moral system whereby homosexuality is ethical?

I have seen, time and again, people claiming that conservatives, especially Christian conservatives, need to 'stop trying to fight this cultural battle,' but I have never seen anyone give any good reason why. Good reasons not to be a hateful bigot, sure, but not good reasons to act like something that's immoral, is not in fact immoral.