LGBT and the US Conservative Movement

[Abhorsen]

That is not an absurdity, the bulk of Child sexual abuse and domestic violence occurs in LGBT households

There's simply not enough LGBT households for this to be in the ball park of true.

Taking a Devil's advocate position on this, since I don't really care about homosexuality. Except that any conservative who calls him or herself ta conservative and claims to stand for the Protestant derived and heavily religiously influenced (For god sakes, the reason why so much of Asia and Africa are Christian is due to American evangelists and tambourine shakers. Billy Graham may as well be remembered as the man who converted a continent...) values upon which the United States of America was founded and doesn't vehemently oppose the lgbt isn't conservative at all and should just join me on the New Right Wingthat's forming in America.

There's a quite viable position for conservatives to take that doesn't include being vehemnintly anti LGBT. It's the "They're sinners, but that's not government's problem" idea, which for example Ben Shapiro takes.

 

[The Immortal Watch Dog]

There's simply not enough LGBT households for this to be in the ball park of true.

I know, I know, they dindu nuffin..

The alphabet soup has no problems no sireee! Y'all are just superior to us straights in every way.

There's a quite viable position for conservatives to take that doesn't include being vehemnintly anti LGBT. It's the "They're sinners, but that's not government's problem" idea, which for example Ben Shapiro takes.

Ben Shapiro is an autistic neocon, chicken Hawk who embodies the "my brother has autism please be patient with him" meme and a symptom of the problem not the solution.

At least if you're conservative.

I'm honestly fine with his stance. But again I'm not the one sworn to uphold WASPism.

I do think the transgender problem needs to be zealously legislated and investigated though.

But thats more because they are unquestionably groomed, brain washed and the suicide rates and health issues arising from that are a public health calamity.

And the sheer number of trannies who end up being accused of pedophilia and battery is rather alarming as well.

there's something there that needs to be vetted before we continue to destroy the lives of anyone who questions them.

I'm neither particularly conservative, nor particularly religious. I'm one of them thar secular moderates y'all love to hate.

Whose y'all?

I mock groypers and the religious right as much as I mock people like you. As far as I'm concerned you're all part of the same problem.

Them for being a bunch of myopic idiots who spend too much time on the wrong letter of the soup and who can't differentiate between a central American and the rest of us and for inviting the Neocons in which caused this whole mess in the first place. And for being so insane as to think an Islamic Style state mandated set of morality laws will achieve anything other than vindication degenercy and empowering perverts.

and you guys for being weaklings who would rather see children castrated and Americans dispossessed then be called racists.

Same fucked up coin, different sides, same problem

And both of you guys need to get the fuck out of our way so we can fix the mess you made and save this country from itself.

I'm being slightly facetious there but really, to quote Franklin. Y'all are doing it wrong.

 

[Bacle]

So I've been wanting to stay out of politics going forward, but this issue is one I cannot ignore. I am someone who considers myself bi and someone who understands how bad the Right has been on this issue.

Any time someone on the Right goes off against same-sex marriage, or uses 'gay' as a negative descriptor for things, they are actively making it harder to get people on the Right elected.

It really is that simple.

Religious rants and scare tactics about 'most gays are pedos' only make the Right look more like the monsters the Left paints us to be.

'Social/trad cons' who claim to care about trying to grow the Right, win more elections, and take back parts of the culture from the Left, need to realize this is a battle they lost long ago, and every time they try to fight or debate it again, they actively hurt the larger goals of the Right.

What Trad/Social cons need to do is to, well...generally shut the fuck up on anything related to LGBT stuff and keep their shit to themselves.

 

[S'task]

Washington didn't write the Declaration of Independance or the Constitution, so he's hardly "number one" at anything aside from being President.

. . .

Are you purposefully diminishing Washington or just ignorant?

While Jefferson was the primary author of the Declaration of Independence, it was heavily revised by committee at the time, and, George Washington was a member of said committee as, yanno, he actually signed the thing.

As to the Constitution. There is no single person that can be pointed to as the author of the US Constitution, as it was the product of much debate and discussion by the Constitutional Convention. However, the Constitutional Convention had an elected leader who was put in charge of the entire process by the Convention itself, one they elected unanimously due to their profound respect for him. This presiding officer overseeing the Constitutional Convention that ended up writing the US Constitution was...

It was George Washington.

Which means that, if you did a modern write up of who wrote the US Constitution, Washington would be the first listed since, yanno, he was in charge of the body that wrote the entire thing.

This is not to diminish the important work of other members of the Constitutional Convention, but to act as if Washington was uninvolved and his positions not important is rank revisionism.

 

[FriedCFour]

I'm neither particularly conservative, nor particularly religious. I'm one of them thar secular moderates y'all love to hate.

I think you are projecting. I don’t hate secular moderates, I’m perfectly happy to have conversations with them. My issue is when they obfuscate history and claim that they are somehow the true heirs to American ideals and that social conservatives need to leave and shut up.

'Social/trad cons' who claim to care about trying to grow the Right, win more elections, and take back parts of the culture from the Left, need to realize this is a battle they lost long ago, and every time they try to fight or debate it again, they actively hurt the larger goals of the Right.

What Trad/Social cons need to do is to, well...generally shut the fuck up on anything related to LGBT stuff and keep their shit to themselves.

Nah, not going to happen. Because ultimately, I care more so about bringing back traditional mores and values in as many as possible, and if “winning” means destroying that, erasing it, silencing and canceling those who want that, I don’t see that as winning at all. And it’s not something “lost long ago.” Gen Z is polarizing and finding less and less support the LGBT and those numbers can and hopefully will continue drop. Things aren’t a done deal and fast shifts can happen, as they did with LGBT support, which has a deeply terrible and cancerous culture. The idea of “let’s just suck up enough to left wing values until we are accepted” is an abysmal idea with zero success. It doesn’t remotely work, Charlie Kirk and Richard Spencer are talked about in the same breadth among much of the left and liberals.

 

[Bacle]

Nah, not going to happen. Because ultimately, I care more so about bringing back traditional mores and values in as many as possible, and if winning means destroying that, I don’t see that as winning at all.

Well good thing trad/social cons are not really in a position to dictate policy or political strategy to anyone, while the moderates are.

The Right needs moderate and disaffected Dems votes more now, and going forward, than they need hardline trad/social cons.

 

[FriedCFour]

Well good thing trad/social cons are not really in a position to dictate policy or political strategy to anyone, while the moderates are.

The Right needs moderate and disaffected Dems votes more now, and going forward, than they need hardline trad/social cons.

sure they are. The Pro-Life stance is a winning position you need to uphold and that’s the bread and butter of social conservatism. The “we need electability” line is the same bullshit that got you McCain and Romney and look how well they did. You can have some strong traditional stances, which again, are growing in popularity because of how utterly abysmal this liberal culture has been for so many.

 

[Bacle]

sure they are. The Pro-Life stance is a winning position you need to uphold and that’s the bread and butter of social conservatism. The “we need electability” line is the same bullshit that got you McCain and Romney and look how well they did. You can have some strong traditional stances, which again, are growing in popularity because of how utterly abysmal this liberal culture has been for so many.

I know this may shock you, but you can be Pro-Life without alienating LGBTs.

 

[FriedCFour]

I know this may shock you, but you can be Pro-Life without alienating LGBTs.

Sure you can. But you can’t be conservative and condone LGBT culture. You can’t want to uphold these things and take a look at the current state of this, with LGBT pride parades being displays of degeneration and hedonism, with how the organizations go on the offense against religion and those who don’t even make strong stances against the LGBT like the war on Chic-Fil-A and then call yourself in any way, shape, or form a conservative. You frankly don’t win many to the right by supporting it. If you do, you absolutely need things that draw the social cons to you still, like stances on immigration, nationalism and pro-life. And again, I’m not going to shut up and let horrifically weak and fragile men dictate what they think the party should look like.

 

[Bacle]

Sure you can. But you can’t be conservative and condone LGBT culture.

Yeah, gonna stop you right there, and call bullshit.

That assumption/premise is flawed to begin with, and relies on a narrow interpretation of what it is to be a 'conservative'.

It also shows why it is a waste of time for anyone to engage with you on this subject.

 

[Abhorsen]

I know, I know, they dindu nuffin..

The alphabet soup has no problems no sireee! Y'all are just superior to us straights in every way.

No, I mean, even if every LGBT couple was abusive, it still wouldn't be the bulk of domestic abuse. I mean there are about 1 million lgbt couples married or living together in the US per the US Census Bureau, while about 10 million people in the US experience domestic violence each year. So even in a world where all 1 million cohabitating lgbt couples are mutually domestically abusing each other, for a total of 2 million victims, that's only 20% of 10 million, which is in no way "the bulk" as you claimed.

Now does the LGBT community have a problem with domestic violence? Yes, absolutely, and much worse than the heterosexual world, and there's a couple of theories I have for this, all slotted into an overall theory. The overall theory is that society has done great work on solving straight domestic abuse, and hasn't yet done that for lgbt partner abuse because that problem isn't talked about a lot, sadly. As for why it isn't talked about:

First, there is the combo of cultural beliefs that "guys don't get abused" and "girls don't abuse" that imply that gay and lesbian relationships can't have abuse (both the premise and conclusion here are wrong, obviously), which means that a lot of it goes unpunished/underreported. On top of this, we have intersectionality putting them on a pedestal as perfect people, thus they somehow can't abuse people. Third, much of the infrastructure to deal with abuse (that definitely works) isn't designed to deal with lgbt abuse, as the partner definitely matters. For example, a women's shelter isn't going to give out their address to a guy, but if a lesbian's partner calls pretending to be an abused victim, they might.

I do think the transgender problem needs to be zealously legislated and investigated though.

But thats more because they are unquestionably groomed, brain washed and the suicide rates and health issues arising from that are a public health calamity.

And the sheer number of trannies who end up being accused of pedophilia and battery is rather alarming as well.

there's something there that needs to be vetted before we continue to destroy the lives of anyone who questions them.

My guess is that there's a couple things going on here. First, note that almost all the predators are MTFs, not FTMs. My guess is that there are people who are predators who see transitioning as a way to exploit the system. And it works.

Pedos also want a way into acceptance, and have tried riding the LGBT train towards it in the past (see: NAMBLA), but they were kicked out soon after (see again: NAMBLA, by everyone in the LGBT movement not David Thorstad).

 

[FriedCFour]

Yeah, gonna stop you right there, and call bullshit.

That assumption/premise is flawed to begin with, and relies on a narrow interpretation of what it is to be a 'conservative'.

It also shows why it is a waste of time for anyone to engage with you on this subject.

It’s extremely broad, actually. I think you can’t be supportive of hedonism or something as radically and directly oppositional to tradition as a conservative. The LGBT do both.

 

[Bacle]

It’s extremely broad, actually. I think you can’t be supportive of hedonism or something as radically and directly oppositional to tradition as a conservative. The LGBT do both.

Yet again, you are acting on a very narrow view of what a 'conservative' is/has to be.

There are libertarian conservatives, environmental conservatives, economic conservatives, and a few other types of conservative besides the Trad/Social cons.

 

[The Immortal Watch Dog]

Snip for pedantry.

Relative to the population size. They are the source of the lionshare of problems with grooming and battery.

Mind you I do think part of that is cultural and IIRC gay and bisexual men offend less than lesbians who seem to be the reigning queens of DV and the like.

there's nuance to it of course.

My guess is that there's a couple things going on here. First, note that almost all the predators are MTFs, not FTMs. My guess is that there are people who are predators who see transitioning as a way to exploit the system. And it works.

Ah yes, it's a convoluted plot by male pedophiles to mutilate themselves and destroy their libido to rape boys and girls. While that does happen the more logical conclusion that doesn't involve making excuses for a demographic is

Most trannies are pedos.

Pedos also want a way into acceptance, and have tried riding the LGBT train towards it in the past (see: NAMBLA), but they were kicked out soon after (see again: NAMBLA, by everyone in the LGBT movement not David Thorstad).

.

They were so thoroughly excised from the LGB.community in the 70s that it was normal normal adult councilors in school to punish students for objecting to their gay friends fucking adults when I was a teenager.

"No! Stop being a bigot! It's perfectly normal for a seventeen year old.boy to have bareback sex with a 46 year old man! It's how they learn to feel comfortable with themselves"


The damage control you are doing is regurgitating a PR spin that no one believes anymore.

Yet again, you are acting on a very narrow view of what a 'conservative' is/has to be.

There are libertarian conservatives, environmental conservatives, economic conservatives, and a few other types of conservative besides the Trad/Social cons.

Don't be disingenuous Bacle

 

[FriedCFour]

Yet again, you are acting on a very narrow view of what a 'conservative' is/has to be.

There are libertarian conservatives, environmental conservatives, economic conservatives, and a few other types of conservative besides the Trad/Social cons.

If you don’t agree with those two exceedingly basic premises then you aren’t conserving anything, you are a progressive fundamentally.

 

[The Immortal Watch Dog]

If you don’t agree with those two exceedingly basic premises then you aren’t conserving anything, you are a progressive fundamentally.

When was the last time American conservatives conserved anything?

Hell the fact that the New Right exists at all is proof of how much they've failed.

 

[Bacle]

If you don’t agree with those two exceedingly basic premises then you aren’t conserving anything, you are a progressive fundamentally.

Or mainstream conservatism has evolved on the large scale, moved on from just catering to trad/social cons, and embraced the LGBTs who think the Left has lost their minds on some issues.

Richard Grenell wouldn't have worked for Trump if Trump shared the views you do, and he was one of the only people besides Pompeo not to turn on Trump.

 

[FriedCFour]

When was the last time American conservatives conserved anything?

Hell the fact that the New Right exists at all is proof of how much they've failed.

Been a moment. But that’s on the elected officials, pundits and compromises on electability and following “at least we aren’t democrats!”

 

[FriedCFour]

Or mainstream conservatism has evolved on the large scale, moved on from just catering to trad/social cons, and embraced the LGBTs who think the Left has lost their minds on some issues.

Explain how it’s conservative to reject tradition and embrace hedonism as the highest good please.

Richard Grenell wouldn't have worked for Trump if Trump shared the views you do, and he was one of the only people besides Pompeo not to turn on Trump.

Cool, not relevant.

 

[Bacle]

Explain how it’s conservative to reject tradition and embrace hedonism as the highest good please.

No, I won't explain the strawman you have concocted, because that's what it is, a strawman designed by trad/social cons to try to twist the debate based on false premises.