LGBT and the US Conservative Movement

[ShieldWife]

Not really. You have a lot more legitimate grounding barring trans people than different races.

Don’t go down that path. Don’t agree that people don’t have the right to freedom of association. By ceding that, you are 90% of the way to being forced to hire Trans people.

 

[FriedCFour]

Don’t go down that path. Don’t agree that people don’t have the right to freedom of association. By ceding that, you are 90% of the way to being forced to hire Trans people.

I hold to both. A. You have freedom of association B. It’s far more legitimate to discriminate against trans in the hiring process than blacks. That’s just decent business sense as a general rule.

 

[Abhorsen]

Yes but every incarnation of the Klan was hunted down by the military minus the current one specifically because of their actions which eventually became criminal and terroristic.

NAMBLA has long ago crossed into criminal conduct town.

Sadly, as much as I hate them, they held up in court against this, including civil court with discovery (all that had to be proven was more likely than not, and they couldn't). This isn't because they were good, but because they were clever at being evil.

I don't agree there, they got up to some truly fucked up shit that was indisputably criminal. Plus didn't they have a connection to Jim Jones through Harvey Milk? Or am I thinking of another demented circus act?

There was no NAMBLA connection with Milk, but like other North California politicians, he had to be nice to Jim Jones, as he had a lot of power then, and better for Milk, the People's Temple would help him campaign. For example, the Board of Supervisors he was on passed a unanimous vote giving Jim Jones a certificate of honor. Now privately, he didn't like him very much, but politics makes one dirty.

No you misread me...I'm saying I'm with the old school Gay righties who said Troons have no business being in the movement because mental illness being associated with the LGB movement was expressly what they fought against.

Yeah, I disagree with this. Also, much of the reason they pushed this was tactics (which is why it is old school, as it isn't needed now).

People who suffer from dysphoria are neurologically disabled and not of an orientaiton.

What they have is an affliction, what you are is definitely not that.

The definition of dysphoria is not viewing your body as your own, basically having a radically different self image. One solution is to surgically modify the body to match the self image. I don't think it's the same, but both groups were similarly attacked in the past.

We should be careful being to pro business has been a pain recently with big business supporting liberals. That might get turned against us. Instead of giving trannies extra rights just make it so any business that employs over 100 people can’t fire someone unless it’s for cause.

No. Capitalism is a moral good as well as a social good, and deregulation of stupid laws like you propose (which make it less likely to hire new people as they can't be fired easily) are bad.

That's a logically consistent position *if* you equally oppose all other anti-discrimination laws.

Personally, I do. I want to know if the places I do business hate me.

I also want to point out.

@Abhorsen and the other LG and B people on this forum don't want the right to commit sexual assault via deception and sexual assault via coercion.

In fact the stigma associated with that and how it relates to HIV is something those three have fought for almost half a century now.

But the Ts seem to want to make it not only legal but illegal to criticize.

So, in a rough order: I don't believe "sexual assault via deception" is actually sexual assault (defined as non-consensual sexual behavior). It is morally wrong, it could be fraud, but it isn't rape. By that logic one could go far enough to say that boasting about things one did at the bar is rape, or even makeup. That's a bad slope to slide down.

As for the stigma, yes, we did come a long way, but part of that success was because of mostly normal Ts.

And Ts making it illegal to criticize is wrong.

 

[FriedCFour]

There was no NAMBLA connection with Milk, but like other North California politicians, he had to be nice to Jim Jones, as he had a lot of power then, and better for Milk, the People's Temple would help him campaign. For example, the Board of Supervisors he was on passed a unanimous vote giving Jim Jones a certificate of honor. Now privately, he didn't like him very much, but politics makes one dirty.

it’s a well known fact Milk was raping a 16 year old when he was twice his age. A quick read of his sex life shows him as frequently finding young men, in at least one case a boy, a child, and then dropping them as soon as they got too old for him. He certainly seems like their clientele.

 

[Abhorsen]

it’s a well known fact Milk was raping a 16 year old when he was twice his age. A quick read of his sex life shows him as frequently finding young men, in at least one case a boy, a child, and then dropping them as soon as they got too old for him. He certainly seems like their clientele.

First, he died a couple of weeks before it was founded. Second, no, NAMBLA was for pedos, interested in young boys, not people interested older teenagers that are at many states age of consent then and now.

 

[The Immortal Watch Dog]

.

So, in a rough order: I don't believe "sexual assault via deception" is actually sexual assault (defined as non-consensual sexual behavior). It is morally wrong, it could be fraud, but it isn't rape. By that logic one could go far enough to say that boasting about things one did at the bar is rape, or even makeup. That's a bad slope to slide down.
.

Lol there is a difference between "hey baby I own a yacht"

And "my nsme is Denise"

And "I'm clean"

 

[Abhorsen]

Lol there is a difference between "hey baby I own a yacht"

And "my nsme is Denise"

And "I'm clean"

I mean, they are all lies though. I see this as an easy slope to fall down. I will say the last one could easy fall under assault, but not sexual assault, as could be trying to cause a physical harm to the person by affecting them. The top two are pretty similar though.

 

[ShadowArxxy]

it’s a well known fact Milk was raping a 16 year old when he was twice his age. A quick read of his sex life shows him as frequently finding young men, in at least one case a boy, a child, and then dropping them as soon as they got too old for him. He certainly seems like their clientele.

Can you provide a source for this "well known fact"?

So, in a rough order: I don't believe "sexual assault via deception" is actually sexual assault (defined as non-consensual sexual behavior).

Western law agrees with you. The "general rule", to the extent that there is one, is that consent is void if obtained by coercion (with some messy precedents regarding intoxication), but consent cannot be claimed void after the fact on the basis of supposed fraud.

California is the only American state that has any sort of "sexual assault via deception" law, and California's law applies *solely* to impersonating someone's spouse. The courts have interpreted this law *so* narrowly that they overturned a conviction of this rare offense on the basis that the rapist "only" impersonated an unmarried woman's boyfriend, although the legislature subsequently amended the law to remove that particular loophole.

 

[The Immortal Watch Dog]

I mean, they are all lies though. I see this as an easy slope to fall down. I will say the last one could easy fall under assault, but not sexual assault, as could be trying to cause a physical harm to the person by affecting them. The top two are pretty similar though.

How is it even an easy slope? One involves talking out of your ass to impress someone who was probably going to sleep with you anyway.

And the other involves deliberately misrepresenting what you are on anatomic level and either duping someone whose never seen a real vagina into sex or in the case of bug chasers purposely infecting people with a terminal disease


Both are rape by deception, it's not that one also counts as a homicide.

 

[Abhorsen]

How is it even an easy slope? One involves talking out of your ass to impress someone who was probably going to sleep with you anyway.

And the other involves deliberately misrepresenting what you are on anatomic level and either duping someone whose never seen a real vagina into sex or in the case of bug chasers purposely infecting people with a terminal disease


Both are rape by deception, it's not that one also counts as a homicide.

How do you know the person would have slept with you if you didn't lie about owning a yacht? Same with makeup. I don't see a reason to call it rape by deception. It's lacking in coercion, which is a critical element of rape.

 

[The Immortal Watch Dog]

How do you know the person would have slept with you if you didn't lie about owning a yacht? Same with makeup. I don't see a reason to call it rape by deception. It's lacking in coercion, which is a critical element of rape.

If you're a female in a dive where people are willing to talk out of their ass 7/10 you've already made up your mind.

Hell if you're a male its the same deal

 

[King Arts]

How do you know the person would have slept with you if you didn't lie about owning a yacht? Same with makeup. I don't see a reason to call it rape by deception. It's lacking in coercion, which is a critical element of rape.

The difference is that when trannies trick straight men to sleep with them by not disclosing that they were born male, they end up tricking that man into being gay.

 

[StormEagle]

The difference is that when trannies trick straight men to sleep with them by not disclosing that they were born male, they end up tricking that man into being gay.

Also, in the case of people that haven’t fully “transitioned”, you get the surprise penis trick pulled on you.

And then, suddenly, you’re a bigot if you say no.

 

[The Immortal Watch Dog]

Also, in the case of people that haven’t fully “transitioned”, you get the surprise penis trick pulled on you.

And then, suddenly, you’re a bigot if you say no.

This is why trans shock is a legitimate legal defense IMO.

 

[Free-Stater 101]

"PLEASE STAND BY"

Okay everybody, some people are coming across as childish A-holes in here, so please cut the bull we are all supposed to be the adults here.

Consider this a friendly group warning any further bad behavior will be looked into with the utmost scrutiny.

***STATIC***

 

[FriedCFour]

Harvey Milk - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

@ShadowArxxy Wikipedia, Jack McKinley was 16 when their relationship started, he was 32. Theres photographs and I can’t find anything even denying it just trying to justify it. Btw, this is exactly what Milo got cancelled for, except for being the 16 year old and justifying the relationship from his end lol.

Also @Abhorsen it’s bizarre to me you’d justify someone working with a deranged communist atheist sex cult. Is it okay for others to work with communists?

 

[ShieldWife]

California is the only American state that has any sort of "sexual assault via deception" law, and California's law applies *solely* to impersonating someone's spouse. The courts have interpreted this law *so* narrowly that they overturned a conviction of this rare offense on the basis that the rapist "only" impersonated an unmarried woman's boyfriend, although the legislature subsequently amended the law to remove that particular loophole.

That is a very strangely specific law. Did California expect a visit from Zeus or Uther Pendragon?

 

[ShadowArxxy]

That is a very strangely specific law. Did California expect a visit from Zeus or Uther Pendragon?

It was a specific law based on the idea that a virtuous married woman could *only* be tricked into having sex if some dastardly con artist impersonated her husband, in any other scenario, she would be at fault.

 

[FriedCFour]

But yeah, Milk was a sexual predator who happily worked with a communist cult leader who was in full intent to destroy America and replace it with communism to further his own political aims. It’s a disgrace we named anything after him and I’m glad his assassin walked.

 

[Bear Ribs]

It seems like there's one other case to Rape by Deception aside from impersonating a spouse in California. A Daniel Kayton Boro has been given jail time for impersonating a doctor and telling women that they had a gruesome disease, which could be cured by a "donor" having sex with them and administering the cure vaginally... that said even this outrageous case took a new law to eliminate the "loophole" involved in 1986 so not a drastic variation.

Rape by deception - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Also I find that case rather horrible and disgusting. I need to go to bed now.