the American beliefs foundationally were Christian socially. Sodomy was punishable by law everywhere up to execution at the time of the founding.
LGBT and the US Conservative Movement
- Thread starter FriedCFour
- Start date
I’m not trying to force anyone into it. I’m trying to correct the historical inaccuracy that surrounds the concept of liberty and culture of America as its foundational identity. I mean, of course I’m not going to accept a framework other than my own lol. You certainly aren’t going to accept mine. And accepting is different than understanding even for that matter. What I think we have such a major issue with is that we all get to just have our own frameworks now, but when the nation was 97% percent Protestant church going Christian at the founding, you could differ on policy and outcome but your moral and social framework remained the same. You believed in the same God, you believed that your rights derived from him, and you believed that it was important to your life and your world views.
LordsFire
Internet Wizard
Neither I nor Fried are trying to force people into Christianity. Fried is specifically addressing the claim about 'American values' or 'American beliefs.'
I still haven't seen anyone explain by what standard homosexuality is moral, nor why the term 'marriage' should be redefined to not be a heterosexual institution (when even historically cultures that were accepting of homosexuality didn't try to force it into marriage), it looks an awful lot more like some people here are pushing 'If you don't agree with me, shut the hell up.'
That answer is the truth, and if you don't like it, tough shit.
Homosexuals do not have to 'morally justify' themselves to get equal rights, no matter how many religious rants people go on.
This is exactly what leftists say when challenged on this topic, word for word it’s the built in response to deal with someone challenging something you deeply hold. What I find bizarre is that there isn’t even really any sensible objective moral framework here on why there should even be equal rights, just subjective values at which point why do yours have more value than mine? I still love that you quoted Patrick Henry for your claim on what “American Morality” is. Do some more, I’d love more opportunity to correct these notions with the actual laws, speeches and text these men wrote, not some propaganda libertarian meme of their ideas.
Bullshit - you're both guilty of it. You refuse to accept any framework that doesn't conform to your own. You've had people, myself included, answer you only for you to turn around and basically just refuse to accept that answer. Or then there's this ludicrous notion that one has to be Christian to be American. 
And LordsFire, I hate to be the one to break it to you, but marriage is no longer just a religious institution - it's a state one. With government being involved in it, that's the aspect of it that I'm interested in ensuring equality in.
And LordsFire, I hate to be the one to break it to you, but marriage is no longer just a religious institution - it's a state one. With government being involved in it, that's the aspect of it that I'm interested in ensuring equality in.
will you accept my framework or frameworks that don’t conform to your own?
it’s called a counterpoint. Disagreement isn’t refusal.
It’s a part of the American identity from its founding. It’s not that you have to be Christian to be American, depending on what you mean by what it is to be American. If you are talking about just “American citizen is American” no, obviously not. But it’s a clear part of our culture and was dominant for most of our history. Only recently has that changed, but even still it’s highly present.
No, what I said is something that is uncontroversial to everyone but trad/social cons.
I have never seen anyone, who wasn't a trad/social con, act like they get to demand homosexuals 'morally justify' themselves.
See, that's the thing, one of our frameworks allows for social evolution and change, and tries to work with it and adapt to it.Bullshit - you're both guilty of it. You refuse to accept any framework that doesn't conform to your own. You've had people, myself included, answer you only for you to turn around and basically just refuse to accept that answer. Or then there's this ludicrous notion that one has to be Christian to be American.
The other framework does not, and insists on trying to rewind the clock on issues in unrealistic ways.
You guys need to abandon your programming and actually debate @LordsFire and @FriedCFour
This isn't spergbattles where all debates between right wingers are determined by who can flagelate themselves the hardest.
This isn't spergbattles where all debates between right wingers are determined by who can flagelate themselves the hardest.
That's because horse theory is real for politics, and the only difference at the ends is whether they are trying to shove Marx or the Bible down your throat.Arguing with these two is like arguing with SJWs.
I mean I think everyone should be able to put forward arguments and not just refuse to debate on some weird moral high ground.
An SJW is known for resorting to Ad Hominem as the mainstay, shaming, calling people bigots, and refusing to actually argue as they try and just tell people to be quiet because they are bad.Arguing with these two is like arguing with SJWs.
My biggest point is on the foundation of America, because so far I haven’t gotten a single document, a single actual piece of evidence, just “liberty and equality” and “enlightenment principles” and no actual explanation or evidence for what those mean except your own personal opinion.
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Except there is no argument to be had here Fried, even if you think there is.
You are simply wrong to demand homosexuals 'morally justify' themselves to people like you and Lordsfire.
Why am I wrong to do so? I think everything can be debated, everything can be justified. I think you run into some major issues when you decide that something is too sacred to even be questioned. It leads to poor ability to understand things or positions or beliefs, because you should be able to argue the other side and understand it as well as you do your own.
Diffrent times Fried.
They are still American. Treat them like one. Dont try to get rid of them, punish them, so on so forth because they have different ideals in the personal life. If they still believe in a Great America, the American dream, Willing to go to war and die with you to defend the country, they deserve to be treated equally. They are just as American as you. They are just as free as you (in a non biden administration that is) are and just want to live thier lives.
We are a country founded on religious freedoms. We do not have a national religion. Your argument relies on Christian beilif s being the main thing everyone should follow.
We can follow the general morals of Christian belief without being a strong Anti-LGB movement.
If they are willing to defend this country and live a normal life. Not like the left, but are willing to embrace the traditional conservative lifestyle just...male and male or female and female? Why cant they be conservatives and great americans.
We are a placeof freedom. The land of the Free. Not the HRE
Fried, not everything is debatable, not everything has to be justified.
Sometimes things just ARE, and you need to learn to live with them.
“This is right because it is right” I feel like I’m talking to a fundie right now.
You can’t follow the Bible as written and say it’s moral. We are country founded by Christians. The founders said we would be dysfunctional without it.
I’m not arguing sodomy should be punishable by death, but why can’t I hope for something along the lines of Poland? Why is it wrong now to uphold something close to traditional and foundational American ideals and identity?
KilroywasNOTHere
"BEEP!"
Girls girls your all very pretty.
*rolls eyes*
Look my biggest question to all of this can be summed up with one sentence. "and you are going to do what about it exactly?" Gays are degenerates." and?
*rolls eyes*
Look my biggest question to all of this can be summed up with one sentence. "and you are going to do what about it exactly?" Gays are degenerates." and?
You are talking to someone who understand that social and political capital, like military logistics, is not unlimited.
The social and political capital burned by people like you, on this futile quest to turn back the clock, could be used for other things like protecting the 2A, or pushing for nuclear energy (conservative environmentalism does exist), or going against actual socialist polices (Critical Race Theory for example).
So that is why I am not 'debating' you on this, partly because there really isn't much to debate to non-trad cons, and partly because doing so legitimizes your false axioms.