LGBT and the US Conservative Movement

LordsFire

Internet Wizard
So you might actually start winning elections.

And who are these others doing it? Lefties? Muslims? I can assure you, those measures bring them success in the short term, but long term it's disastrous.

You miss my point.

There is a modern fashion to define only Christians as acting in religious interest, or alternately to only claim it's bad when Christians do so; any and every other party doing so is acceptable.

Playing by these rules, allowing this narrative to be established, means letting the enemy choose both the battlefield, and their relative position in it. It is allowing them to choose what is right and wrong, and they of course cast themselves as right, and any threatening group wrong.

I don't see how it's productive to play that game.
 

Lord Sovereign

Well-known member
There is a modern fashion to define only Christians as acting in religious interest, or alternately to only claim it's bad when Christians do so; any and every other party doing so is acceptable.

Or, how about we just go with moral puritanism being unacceptable no matter where it comes from? It's not alright for you to do it just because others are. That's the logic of a child.

I don't see how it's productive to play that game.

If you think that's unproductive, then just wait and see where this gets you...
 

LordsFire

Internet Wizard
Or, how about we just go with moral puritanism being unacceptable no matter where it comes from? It's not alright for you to do it just because others are. That's the logic of a child.

If you think that's unproductive, then just wait and see where this gets you...

I'm not playing a game of moral puritanism. I'm not trying to force others to live by my creed. If someone wants to live in an adulterous relationship, be it heterosexual or homosexual, I'll try to convince them it's wrong, but I won't try to force them to stop, and I know how to be tactful and stop belaboring a point because they're not interested in hearing it anymore.

But neither am I willing to allow other people to redefine reality in accordance to their creed.

You see how effective these cultural leftists have been? They've managed to shape the argument so that resisting them forcing their ideology on the rest of society, is now defined as me being a moral puritan, rather than them.

At no other point in history, regardless of how accepting a civilization was of homosexuality, was marriage defined as something other than between man and woman. And contrary to what the left claimed as they fought for 'equality,' within the year of the supreme court deciding by judicial fiat what they had not been able to win electorally and legislatively, they were using the legal system to punish people who did not agree with them.

I know that for some people, they just wanted what they viewed as equality, and such people I can see at least as trying to accomplish something good, if misguided, but they were never more than tools.

What it always was about, and still is about, is a politically useful tool to try to destroy the largest political block that would attempt to limit the power and reach of the government, Christian conservatives.

It's been bloody effective, too.
 

FriedCFour

PunishedCFour
Founder
I would point out that you are *even more* worked up and offended at, claiming at length that the mere existence of LGBT people is an intolerable assault on society because we go against your chosen interpretation of your religion.
Pretty hyperbolic. Existence isn’t the issue. It’s the equality that is.
 

Lord Sovereign

Well-known member
If I’m a tyrant the men who made this nation were tyrants ten times over lol. I have an insanely progressive view compared to them. After all, I don’t think sodomy should be punishable by execution.

And those men are long gone, along with the 18th century.

Here, now, I'm dealing with Neo-reactionary muppets who think the LGBT movement will go away if they just get rid of gay marriage. It's exactly the same sort of "baby out with the bathwater" nonsense the left does.

As you previously stated, you have a problem with these people having the same rights as you, probably because the radicals have gone too far again, and for some reason you've lumped them in with the wider group. I would guess your answer to this problem is taking those rights away. That makes you a tyrant, who would only cause the LGBT movement to flourish because they've now got actual fucking grievance.
 

FriedCFour

PunishedCFour
Founder
Hmm. I'm still having trouble with the why. What are the values at the root of the the things you support and oppose? To put it another way, so what? So what if feminism and the radical left win? So what if birth rates keep declining? So what if men become weaker and weaker? So what if immigrants keep flowing into the the country? So what if America ceases to be America? Let's say you're talking with someone and they say they want all those things, that they see them as good. How would you explain to them that's all actually bad?
Because I value all of those things, because those things should be valued and are entirely good. Because they give meaning to your life, because it makes for a sad life. We are heirs to a lengthy legacy of great men and people who did incredible things, we squander it, don’t appreciate it, and are fat and miserable. I want what is good for the American people because everything you listed is demonstrably not so. There’s been this heavy trend in social issues and in education to “deconstruct” everything and make it all a “critique” because they provide little of value and substance themselves and want to keep their influence and power, but these things used to not be controversial or questioned by hardly anyone and we were better for it.
 

LordsFire

Internet Wizard
Fuck. Off. Tyrant.

So, twenty years ago, when homosexual marriage was not the law of the land...

Where were the teams of regulators and lawyers suing the non-official groups that would offer homosexuals non-legally binding weddings?

The groups of people who would mass-campaign to get people who supported homosexuality deplatformed, fired, and lose them their legal representation?

Where were the mainstream political and media-figures preaching violence against people who supported homosexual marriage?

Yes, go back eighty years, and you might see something more like that, but that's not something that I've seen FriedCFour advocate, and even when there were laws against sodomy on the books, they were rarely enforced.


In America, when Christianity was the dominant cultural force, there was still an ideology of 'love the sinner, hate the sin.' There were radicals who wanted to hate the sinner too, yes, but those were the fringe, not the mainstream.

Now what is the political left doing with this, and every other issue they claim moral supremacy on?

Toe the party line, or we will get you fired, we will have you fined, and we will do our best to turn your name into mud. Even in here, there's a strong current of 'shut up, you don't get to share your thoughts, you're just wrong.' There is no 'love the sinner, hate the sin,' there is 'You are guilty of wrongthink, and therefore must be sent to the camps for reeducation.' And as basically every figure on the Intellectual Dark Web agrees, there is no forgiveness or redemption on the left.

I don't agree with all of FC4's positions, I do think he's at least a little bit authoritarian, but I don't really see people pushing the other side of this issue have any ground to be accusing others of being tyrants.

Here, now, I'm dealing with Neo-reactionary muppets who think the LGBT movement will go away if they just get rid of gay marriage. It's exactly the same sort of "baby out with the bathwater" nonsense the left does.

I don't know anybody who thinks like this, but I'm getting really sick of hearing different variations on this argument:

"You conservative christians are evil for expecting other people to use your religious definition of marriage!"
"Then what definition are we supposed to use?"
"Our religious definition of marriage!"
"Why should I treat your religion as real, but not mine? Also, it's not just a religious definition, historically, every single culture has-"
"Shut up! You're evil!"
 

FriedCFour

PunishedCFour
Founder
And those men are long gone, along with the 18th century.

Here, now, I'm dealing with Neo-reactionary muppets who think the LGBT movement will go away if they just get rid of gay marriage. It's exactly the same sort of "baby out with the bathwater" nonsense the left does.
I don’t think it’ll go away at all. To really get rid of gay marriage, you first would need to get rid of their political movement and diminish their power.
 

FriedCFour

PunishedCFour
Founder
As you previously stated, you have a problem with these people having the same rights as you, probably because the radicals have gone too far again, and for some reason you've lumped them in with the wider group. I would guess your answer to this problem is taking those rights away. That makes you a tyrant, who would only cause the LGBT movement to flourish because they've now got actual fucking grievance.
No it’s not. Ending Gay Marriage would be the end state not the first step. Hell, we’d first need to fix how fucked up the hetero sexual sphere is first because that is fixable. I don’t think you understand my position here. I think that rampant casual sex is ultimately horribly detrimental. I think porn is detrimental. As such, the normal sexual relations side is also fucked right now. Fix that first, get people to realize how detrimental it is for their lives, and then there will be a lot less LGBT allies, and they will have less power.
 

Lord Sovereign

Well-known member
On the other side, you all seem to think that the LGBT movement will go away if everyone just accepts gay marriage.

Accepting gay marriage won't make it go away, that's true enough. Slapping down the radicals for trying to privilege a specific group (most of whom have not asked to be privileged) should do the trick with the more rotten elements of it. Please understand that I'm not exactly what many on the left would call an "ally."
 

Rocinante

Russian Bot
Founder
On the other side, you all seem to think that the LGBT movement will go away if everyone just accepts gay marriage.
No, I think there is merit to the slippery slope argument.

They'll move on to the next thing. They did. Look at all the trans stuff going on now.

I don't think we need to cater to them every time we slip down that slope a bit. But giving the gays equal rights seems pretty harmless to me
 

LindyAF

Well-known member
Accepting gay marriage won't make it go away, that's true enough. Slapping down the radicals for trying to privilege a specific group (most of whom have not asked to be privileged) should do the trick with the more rotten elements of it. Please understand that I'm not exactly what many on the left would call an "ally."

I know- most of you to your credit do not hold the left orthodoxy views on this issue- @Rocinante disagrees with hate crime laws, a position that would be anathema to basically the entire left, @Bacle sounds like he wants to drop the T, although I don't think he ever explicitly said it. But I think you're all wrong that this is a few radicals that don't represent the broader movement, that the rot is only in a small part of it. From what I've seen the vast majority of the movement and the vast majority of the politically active "LGBT community" backs the whatever the latest extension is.

There are exceptions, of course. Some of those exceptions are here and some of those exceptions get a popular following with the Right, but they are the rare exception, not the rule.

I don't think we need to cater to them every time we slip down that slope a bit. But giving the gays equal rights seems pretty harmless to me

I just don't think it's stable. We can't balance halfway down the slippery slope forever.
 

FriedCFour

PunishedCFour
Founder
Accepting gay marriage won't make it go away, that's true enough. Slapping down the radicals for trying to privilege a specific group (most of whom have not asked to be privileged) should do the trick with the more rotten elements of it. Please understand that I'm not exactly what many on the left would call an "ally."
It’s not radicals man. It’s literally all their advocacy groups barring a handful. You think human rights campaign is radical? It’s literally their largest organization lol. They advocate, defend, protect, and push for everything you call radical. What you want to dismantle aren’t the radicals but basically the entire LGBT movement. I mean for fucks sake, y’all say LGB which within the mainstream of this movement is seen as a TERF thing. The largest and most vocal group within the LGBTQAIP movement that back this ARE the radicals within it! You have a lot more in common on this topic with what is considered to be their radical and their fringe elements that are ousted, ostracized and cancelled by the mainstream of the LGBT culture and political sphere.
 
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Rocinante

Russian Bot
Founder
It’s not radicals man. It’s literally all their advocacy groups barring a handful. You think human rights campaign is radical? It’s literally their largest organization lol. They advocate, defend, protect, and push for everything you call radical. What you want to dismantle aren’t the radicals but basically the entire LGBT movement. I mean for fucks sake, y’all say LGB which within the mainstream of this movement is seen as a TERF thing. The largest and most vocal group within the LGBTQAIP movement that back this ARE the radicals!
What you want to do -taking their rights away- gives these people a very solid foundation and something to fight for.

You'll be making the lgbt community louder and more powerful by giving them a solid and clear enemy and a casis belli
 

FriedCFour

PunishedCFour
Founder
What you want to do -taking their rights away- gives these people a very solid foundation and something to fight for.

You'll be making the lgbt community louder and more powerful by giving them a solid and clear enemy and a casis belli
Yes I acknowledged this. To lay out what I would say I want exactly is what is going on now. “We oppose gay marriage” is left on the platform and as an ultimate goal, but it’s not something you campaign on. The political organization and power of their group has to be broken first before you go after gay marriage, to do that you need to inculcate traditional values in society first, to do that you need to break the modes that lead people down degenerate hedonism and think liberty and freedom means being a slave to your base desires, and not liberty as it was understood classically as freedom that you actually achieve and earn yourself via your virtuous nature freeing you from base desires and allowing you to pursue what betters you, knowledge and autonomy.



also if you want to understand this side of politics better and why I think libertarianism is utterly suicidal this video lays it out extremely well.
 

Cherico

Well-known member
What you want to do -taking their rights away- gives these people a very solid foundation and something to fight for.

You'll be making the lgbt community louder and more powerful by giving them a solid and clear enemy and a casis belli

Also this is politics of opasition.

We all agree to stop fucking with each other because the other guys are authoritarian assholes.
 

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