LGBT and the US Conservative Movement

LindyAF

Well-known member
What you want to do -taking their rights away- gives these people a very solid foundation and something to fight for.

You'll be making the lgbt community louder and more powerful by giving them a solid and clear enemy and a casis belli

Dude, a couple people on a internet message board with a thousand members isn't giving anyone casus belli. You'd have a point about it being on the platform, but I don't think this is really born out.

Trump, whose official stance was arguably softer than Republicans before him, in 2016 got the tied-lowest % of the LGBT vote since it had been tracked (14%). And he was tieing with HW Bush in 1992, when the right-wing vote was famously split heavily between HW Bush and Perot. The 2016 House of Reps Republican share of the LGBT vote was the lowest since it has been tracked (18%), a 6% drop from 2014 and a 4% drop from the last presidential election.

So after, immediately after gay marriage was put into place, the "LGBT community" swung less supportive of conservatives. This does not support your thesis that the more this issue is considered settled the less powerful the LGBT movement will be.

Side note: We should have a general AuthRight vs LibRight and/or SocCon vs SocLib,FisCon thread so we stop having derails into that argument.
 

Rocinante

Russian Bot
Founder
Dude, a couple people on a internet message board with a thousand members isn't giving anyone casus belli. You'd have a point about it being on the platform, but I don't think this is really born out.

Trump, whose official stance was arguably softer than Republicans before him, in 2016 got the tied-lowest % of the LGBT vote since it had been tracked (14%). And he was tieing with HW Bush in 1992, when the right-wing vote was famously split heavily between HW Bush and Perot. The 2016 House of Reps Republican share of the LGBT vote was the lowest since it has been tracked (18%), a 6% drop from 2014 and a 4% drop from the last presidential election.

So after, immediately after gay marriage was put into place, the "LGBT community" swung less supportive of conservatives. This does not support your thesis that the more this issue is considered settled the less powerful the LGBT movement will be.

Side note: We should have a general AuthRight vs LibRight and/or SocCon vs SocLib,FisCon thread so we stop having derails into that argument.
Fried is assuring me that it's not just him or just a fringe but that it's a foundation of the platform, so if that was the case then my post is pretty accurate
 

LindyAF

Well-known member
I saw stats earlier in this thread that showed in this recent election, the LBGs breaking off from Dems really hard.

I generally assume that this sort of thing is the product of reporting by GOP strategists wanting reality to reflect their fantasy but I'll check and see if I can find stats on this myself.
 

FriedCFour

PunishedCFour
Founder
Fried is assuring me that it's not just him or just a fringe but that it's a foundation of the platform, so if that was the case then my post is pretty accurate

Roci, Trump picked Pence directly to appeal to that and to make up for his lack of a socially conservative background. It’s on the RNC platform. Neither of these two facts stopped ANY of you from voting for him, and it seems that Trump actually recovered LGBT vote to around McCain levels, while deliberately picking a running mate with the perception of being an arch social conservative (he’s not, but it was the perception). It’s not a foundation of the platform, but it is still present. It’s been placed on the back burner. Y’all were drawn into the Republican side of politics by a man who pushed a message vastly more akin to a paleocon than the message of “””conservatism””” that has been in place since shortly after World War II, which has been one of the strongest groups on the right pushing back against that very side of politics you did not like.
 

Rocinante

Russian Bot
Founder

Roci, Trump picked Pence directly to appeal to that and to make up for his lack of a socially conservative background. It’s on the RNC platform. Neither of these two facts stopped ANY of you from voting for him, and it seems that Trump actually recovered LGBT vote to around McCain levels, while deliberately picking a running mate with the perception of being an arch social conservative (he’s not, but it was the perception). It’s not a foundation of the platform, but it is still present. It’s been placed on the back burner. Y’all were drawn into the Republican side of politics by a man who pushed a message vastly more akin to a paleocon than the message of “””conservatism””” that has been in place since shortly after World War II, which has been one of the strongest groups on the right pushing back against that very side of politics you did not like.
Trump was on the campaign trail waving a rainbow flag. I never picked up "anti gay rights" vibes off him. More like "we have more important things to worry about"
 

FriedCFour

PunishedCFour
Founder
Trump was on the campaign trail waving a rainbow flag. I never picked up "anti gay rights" vibes off him. More like "we have more important things to worry about"
Yes. That’s exactly why he picked Mike Pence, to make up not specifically for backing traditional marriage, though that was certainly a part of it, but to make up for his overall lack of social conservatism he had, to show that he’s holding that position close by and giving it a seat at the table. Ie “we aren’t excluding you guys from the party”. Picks aren’t random. There’s a lot of thought that typically goes into them and generally you pick those within the party to be your VP that you want to at least give the perception of “I may not be this, but you are an important voting block so here is a guy like this that will be my right hand man”
 

LindyAF

Well-known member
Yeah, so it looks like Trump got 28% of the LGBT vote in 2020. This is obviously much more than in 2016 (where he got 14%). But it only barely beats out McCain's share in 2008 (27%). McCain got the most of any prior Republican candidate (while it was tracked), but even comparing to the average for presidential elections from 1996-2012 (24.5%), most of this was making up lost ground.

This mirrors a lot of other 'minority' groups, where Trump went from the low watermark for a Republican in 2016 to at about the high watermark for a republican in 2020. I don't think this really represents a breakthrough.
 

FriedCFour

PunishedCFour
Founder
Yeah, so it looks like Trump got 28% of the LGBT vote in 2020. This is obviously much more than in 2016 (where he got 14%). But it only barely beats out McCain's share in 2008 (27%). McCain got the most of any Republican candidate, but even comparing to the average for presidential elections from 1996-2012 (24.5%), most of this was making up lost ground.

This mirrors a lot of other 'minority' groups, where Trump went from the low watermark for a Republican in 2016 to at about the high watermark for a republican in 2020. I don't think this really represents a breakthrough.
Pretty much. It’s mostly just a return to the normal share. If it continues to trend upwards it would be, but you’ll never have a majority, because you can never out pander this groups inherent interests and offering them more and more status and elevation on the right.
 

LordsFire

Internet Wizard
Pretty much. It’s mostly just a return to the normal share. If it continues to trend upwards it would be, but you’ll never have a majority, because you can never out pander this groups inherent interests and offering them more and more status and elevation on the right.

The left will always win the game of pandering to special interests, because they have no moral restraint, and are always willing to over special privileges and powers if it'll get your votes.
 

ATP

Well-known member
The left will always win the game of pandering to special interests, because they have no moral restraint, and are always willing to over special privileges and powers if it'll get your votes.

Indeed - it is as kicking with mule.If republican try to win over one peculiar minority they would lost,even if leftist plan to send those minorities to gulag after their victory.
As somebody said,nobody could gave more then leftist would promise.
 

The Immortal Watch Dog

Well-known member
Hetman
Trump, whose official stance was arguably softer than Republicans before him.

Trump's stance towards the alphabet soup was the most progressive of any president.

The man was a proponent of gay marriage off and on as far back as the 70's (Hilariously he was mirroring the opinions of Sonny Franzesse who was one of the few mobsters who openly backed gay bars and gay circles because of the amount of money he made off their clubs and bath houses). He's the only President to fly the Rainbow flag while in the whitehouse and he was the only President to literally drape himself in it.

His policies about Transgendered people serving in the military and requiring their federal documents was about logistics and health issues and got blown out of proportion..the reality is Trump has been the most pro minority President since fucking Nixon's attempts to revive the Black business class and the most pro Alphabet Soup President.

And arguably, that's what cost Trump votes on the right.

A lot of Latinos and a lot of Africans, Indians, Brazilians, Asians and Caribbean islanders who would have voted Trump in 2020, specifically refused to vote at all over their disgust for what they saw as "Trump abandoning the people to whore himself out to sodomites, trannies and Jews".

And it likely cost him a couple percentage points.

I know Clowns like Charlie Kirke would hyperventilate at me for saying so, but sorry...the rainbow coalition of minority voters the right dreams of won't come unless they pivot hard to the right.

edit- A lot of us focused on debating and containing the nevertrump Cuckservatives who posted here...but there's likely a contingent of New Right voters on the site who mirror the above views.
 

LindyAF

Well-known member
Trump's stance towards the alphabet soup was the most progressive of any president.

Eh, not really. His stance on gay marriage was always more deliberate ambiguity and signaling that he wasn't going to try to overturn it. Rather than actual support, which Obama did when running in 2012.

And arguably, that's what cost Trump votes on the right.

A lot of Latinos and a lot of Africans, Indians, Brazilians, Asians and Caribbean islanders who would have voted Trump in 2020, specifically refused to vote at all over their disgust for what they saw as "Trump abandoning the people to whore himself out to sodomites, trannies and Jews".

And it likely cost him a couple percentage points.

I know Clowns like Charlie Kirke would hyperventilate at me for saying so, but sorry...the rainbow coalition of minority voters the right dreams of won't come unless they pivot hard to the right.

tbh we clearly agree on most policy questions but I think this is sort of just the nationalist or Paleocon version of the eternal "natural conservatives" cope. Trump didn't lose ground among any of the components of the progressive rainbow coalition between 2016 and 2020. If anything he gained ground. He might have lost some support from people like Jesse Le Peterson or Michelle Malkin over the issues you're talking about, but they're a tiny fraction. This is kind of confused by the matter of possible systematic voter fraud, but if he lost ground with any group over the pandering, he lost ground among White People, both working class and suburban middle class. That makes sense, because that's the base he to some extent abandoned by pandering.
 

strunkenwhite

Well-known member
also if you want to understand this side of politics better and why I think libertarianism is utterly suicidal this video lays it out extremely well.
I'm not sure I understand the distinction he draws between liberals and leftists in that video, can you help me out there? He doesn't directly explain that, as I recall, but I'm sure he distinguished between the two several times.
 

The Immortal Watch Dog

Well-known member
Hetman
tbh we clearly agree on most policy questions but I think this is sort of just the nationalist or Paleocon version of the eternal "natural conservatives" cope.

No it isn't a cope, I'm politically involved in a city more or less founded by the demographics I just cited and myself am part of that demographic and I'm telling you, for the last two years all I heard was "Trump's a cuck, Trumps a goy, Trump's too busy "dejando que los Afroamericanas romper el orto para gobernar" "Trump es un imbecil cornudo que no sirve para nada y los Republicans son unos putas que venden sus culos a los Banqueros Y microsoft"

The last one is especially pervasive, with many of the people down here feeling like they were betrayed.

So no, it isn't a cope. At least not in two major cities in the South where I witnessed it first hand, verses what I saw in 2015 and 2016 which was a bunch of my fellow immigrants threatening to pull good ol'boy style tactics to keep blue neighborhoods from voting such was their enthusiasm.

If anything its a cope from the rest of the right..."ooohh noo we aren't required to pivot to the right, we can conserve liberalism from twenty years ago"

Except to many of us..we hate them for it.

And it wasn't a tiny fraction, I can guarantee you the number of immigrants who refuse to vote due to the right not being right enough approaches half a million to a million people and I'm pretty sure I'm underestimating it because the American Right doesn't have the balls to go out and survey this.
 

S'task

Renegade Philosopher
Administrator
Staff Member
Founder
No it isn't a cope, I'm politically involved in a city more or less founded by the demographics I just cited and myself am part of that demographic and I'm telling you, for the last two years all I heard was "Trump's a cuck, Trumps a goy, Trump's too busy "dejando que los Afroamericanas romper el orto para gobernar" "Trump es un imbecil cornudo que no sirve para nada y los Republicans son unos putas que venden sus culos a los Banqueros Y microsoft"

The last one is especially pervasive, with many of the people down here feeling like they were betrayed.

So no, it isn't a cope. At least not in two major cities in the South where I witnessed it first hand, verses what I saw in 2015 and 2016 which was a bunch of my fellow immigrants threatening to pull good ol'boy style tactics to keep blue neighborhoods from voting such was their enthusiasm.

If anything its a cope from the rest of the right..."ooohh noo we aren't required to pivot to the right, we can conserve liberalism from twenty years ago"

Except to many of us..we hate them for it.

And it wasn't a tiny fraction, I can guarantee you the number of immigrants who refuse to vote due to the right not being right enough approaches half a million to a million people and I'm pretty sure I'm underestimating it because the American Right doesn't have the balls to go out and survey this.
So what issues did they feel Trump sold out on specifically? I'm struggling to think of issues where he actually made any real compromises with the left on things that could be seen as "selling out".
 

The Immortal Watch Dog

Well-known member
Hetman
So what issues did they feel Trump sold out on specifically? I'm struggling to think of issues where he actually made any real compromises with the left on things that could be seen as "selling out".

He "sold them out" because he didn't instantly close the borders, deport as many Muslims as possible and immediately begin weaponizing the FBI against what they view as enemies of the state. Uhh, their other big issue was a refusal to pick far right people for his cabinet, going with establishment choices. The amount of energy, money and support given to Israel pissed a lot of them off and they felt when he didn't immediately order American soldiers to fire the migrant caravans that he was basically betraying the country.

Most Legal Latinos hate illegals with a passion and a decently large minority of Legal Latinos want to see illegals either exterminated or rounded up and marched to the border trail of tears style and when the President didn't do something he never promised he would do and couldn't do even if he wanted too..well it was another example of his betrayal.

A lot of them also were under the mistaken impression that any sitting President could just send the military into cities and begin rounding up lawyers, teachers and activists...Or that he'd not only pull the US from NATO but defund the UN and eject its entire staff from New York by force of arms.

his capitulating on the budget and his flirtations with Red flag laws...I even heard a few Cuban Americans rage at him over refusing to nominated Roy Moore to the US Supreme Court...weirdly enough.

Another major point was that many of them wanted Big banks to be destroyed, Woke megacorps to be declared terrorists and their CEO's indicted and shot. None of which is realistic...but when enough people believe it to move a needle...well.

The impression I've always had is that most of these people expected Donald Trump to conduct a white terror and just annihilate what they viewed as enemies of the state and their own interests and when he failed to do that and went out and negotiated as opposed to taking what he wanted many of these people turned on him.

Like I've said a million times, the nature of the American right is rapidly changing due to immigration and it isn't becoming more tolerant or democratic...and its not necessarily a change for the best.

But a lot of people don't see it...Choose not too or just blank out.


@LindyAF Trump gained ground with those rainbow coalition groups but he didn't gain as much as he could have was my point and my second point?

He didn't gain the Latinos and Africans who matter...Because an incredibly small minority of those communities wield an immense amount of influence and power over those communities in general and those particular groups of people..simply refused to weigh in.

And that may sound like a foreign concept to American politics...but patronage culture is a real thing down South and it tends to create herd voting.

And that has been my point.
 

S'task

Renegade Philosopher
Administrator
Staff Member
Founder
He "sold them out" because he didn't instantly close the borders, deport as many Muslims as possible and immediately begin weaponizing the FBI against what they view as enemies of the state. Uhh, their other big issue was a refusal to pick far right people for his cabinet, going with establishment choices. The amount of energy, money and support given to Israel pissed a lot of them off and they felt when he didn't immediately order American soldiers to fire the migrant caravans that he was basically betraying the country.

Most Legal Latinos hate illegals with a passion and a decently large minority of Legal Latinos want to see illegals either exterminated or rounded up and marched to the border trail of tears style and when the President didn't do something he never promised he would do and couldn't do even if he wanted too..well it was another example of his betrayal.

A lot of them also were under the mistaken impression that any sitting President could just send the military into cities and begin rounding up lawyers, teachers and activists...Or that he'd not only pull the US from NATO but defund the UN and eject its entire staff from New York by force of arms.

his capitulating on the budget and his flirtations with Red flag laws...I even heard a few Cuban Americans rage at him over refusing to nominated Roy Moore to the US Supreme Court...weirdly enough.

Another major point was that many of them wanted Big banks to be destroyed, Woke megacorps to be declared terrorists and their CEO's indicted and shot. None of which is realistic...but when enough people believe it to move a needle...well.

The impression I've always had is that most of these people expected Donald Trump to conduct a white terror and just annihilate what they viewed as enemies of the state and their own interests and when he failed to do that and went out and negotiated as opposed to taking what he wanted many of these people turned on him.

Like I've said a million times, the nature of the American right is rapidly changing due to immigration and it isn't becoming more tolerant or democratic...and its not necessarily a change for the best.

But a lot of people don't see it...Choose not too or just blank out.
OK, at least you recognize a lot of the stuff was literally out of his ability to do, as in, not even in the purview of the power of the President type stuff. Honestly though, I think they should feel less betrayed by Trump than by the Bureaucratic Establishment. Even had he tried to actively use the FBI to go after actual legit enemies of the United States, given how thoroughly Obama had corrupted it, they likely would never have (just look at how they continued Crossfire Hurricane), to say nothing of some of the other things that would be clearly illegal under the US' system.
 

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