Breaking News FBI raids Trump's Mar-a-Largo Resort home

[LordsFire]

Well... There's absolutely no evidence of him giving any such instruction, the markings weren't adjusted to reflect a change in classification as required, and as you say the authority to decide that resides with the president not the ex-president, so he kinda needs to prove it occurred when he was. And again, regardless of classification it was wrong and illegal.

No he does not. 'Innocent until proven guilty' is a fundamental concept of the justice system. The onus is on the Fed to prove that he didn't.

And... AGAIN... Whether it was classified or not is immaterial to the meat of the issue. Which is that trump, who was not the government, had government records and files, and did not give them back when told to and lied and obfuscated instead.

Also, if you go and look at the released photos, how much information do you think is actually visible? The cover letter showing classification and such is not (generally) itself classified.

You are acting on the simple expedient of treating him as guilty... not even until proven innocent at this point, just guilty, period.

1. People at the national archive claimed that Trump had things he should not have. Claimed.
2. Trump invited people from the national archives to come and look at what was and was not at Mar-a-Lago. They did.
3. He let them take some boxes of documents. They asked him to put a lock on the storage facility the rest were being kept at. He did.
4. There was an open invitation to further dialogue and visits.
5. A raid was conducted based on a warrant issued by a judge who had a known conflict of interest, and the FBI claims that he still had documents that he should not. This claim was not proven, and Trump's legal team claims that everything he had was appropriate for him to have. There are provisions in law for him to take at least some documents with him.

Are you not aware of any of these facts?

 

[LordSunhawk]

Megadeth... you are not understanding what the Executive can do. There is Supreme Court precedent that the President has absolute, unreviewable, unalterable, authority in regards to Presidential records, including classification levels. This authority persists for former Presidents as well (this was the basis by which the federal courts ruled that Clinton didn't have to return classified material, nor disclose any material, if he simply, as the ex-President, asserted it was his personal records ex post facto...)

We have the actual declassification memo, and we know full well that the reason that particular section of the FBI went in was to attempt to sanitize records related to Crossfire Hurricane, IE the Russiagate hoax.

 

[Arch Dornan]

Even if Trump had some still classified stuff (he didn't, the fbis thing is bs) the fbi released that staged photo of the stuff they "found". If it was somehow still classified they just publicly showed them. The only way they don't get in trouble for that is if the documents are declassified already.

Is that photo tampered evidence?

Taken from it's original location to be staged for a photo op makes it mishandled no?

 

[King Arts]

Lol, does geographic location provide secret, special knowledge? Is the American law code kept hidden from other people? Am I in fact wrong about some particular in what I've said? Or, maybe you're just making ad hominem attacks because I'm right, you can't contest it and it makes you feel stupid. Who knows?


Well... There's absolutely no evidence of him giving any such instruction, the markings weren't adjusted to reflect a change in classification as required, and as you say the authority to decide that resides with the president not the ex-president, so he kinda needs to prove it occurred when he was. And again, regardless of classification it was wrong and illegal.
As for the rest, that's a new characterisation of me I've not heard before, and a worrying attitude. "Who cares about the rules? What matters is who's on our side!"


And, once more... My entire initial point is, it does not matter about the classification! Jeez...

Why is it a worrying attitude? The other side is corrupt and evil the laws don’t have legitimacy, as long as someone on our side does not harm another conservatives they should get a pardon for hurting liberals.

 

[The Whispering Monk]

Why is it a worrying attitude? The other side is corrupt and evil the laws don’t have legitimacy, as long as someone on our side does not harm another conservatives they should get a pardon for hurting liberals.

So...you want us to become just like the leftists? Anything is permissible as long as it furthers our side?

 

[King Arts]

So...you want us to become just like the leftists? Anything is permissible as long as it furthers our side?

I'm sorry but this argument is very stupid. I'm not insulting you, I'm insulting the argument. It's the same argument Trudau said, "If you kill your enemies they win" I mean the Nazis killed people so when we killed them in world war 2 were we like them?

The differance between us and the leftests is not they support murder, rape, robbery, etc. and we never support it. The conflict lines are diffrent they want eternal change mindless chaos. We want to build a stable society where there is prosperity, people can walk the streets without being attacked, you can sleep softly knowing your wives and daughters(and sons now because leftests are depraved) won't be raped. I want a society where people are safe to walk the streets, engage in commerce or enjoy past times safely, and they are also able to support their famillies financially, and also have a little left over so it's not just surviving from one paycheck to another, being able to have some luxories.

 

[The Whispering Monk]

@King Arts
I was being hyperbolic simply because I wanted you to define your limits.

You have. I respect and support the limits you've stated.

Your post, which garnered my response, could be taken to an extreme.

 

[Bacle]

@King Arts
I was being hyperbolic simply because I wanted you to define your limits.

You have. I respect and support the limits you've stated.

Your post, which garnered my response, could be taken to an extreme.

Well the fact is he's not wrong that 'limits' have become a handicap for the Right.

The Left has no compuntion about violating and ignoring laws when they get in their way and have the power to do it and not suffer consequences.

Meanwhile the Right still wants to believe 'fair play' measures, and staying within the limits the Dems ignore, has any real ability to be a winning move, when history and current events show otherwise.

What the Right needs is more people willing to be Ben Sisko in 'In the Pale Moonlight', and care more about being effective in the new rule set, than about trying to be 'saints' playing by the old rule set.

But that won't happen, because it would require people on the Right to admit that the old rules no longer apply in US politics, and be willing to admit that this is not a fight that can be won, or even stalemated, by playing by rules the other side no longer follows.

 

[Rocinante]

Well the fact is he's not wrong that 'limits' have become a handicap for the Right.

The Left has no compuntion about violating and ignoring laws when they get in their way and have the power to do it and not suffer consequences.

Meanwhile the Right still wants to believe 'fair play' measures, and staying within the limits the Dems ignore, has any real ability to be a winning move, when history and current events show otherwise.

What the Right needs is more people willing to be Ben Sisko in 'In the Pale Moonlight', and care more about being effective in the new rule set, than about trying to be 'saints' playing by the old rule set.

But that won't happen, because it would require people on the Right to admit that the old rules no longer apply in US politics, and be willing to admit that this is not a fight that can be won, or even stalemated, by playing by rules the other side no longer follows.

It's part of who the classic conservatives are. They're conservatives because they value tradition, rules, law, principles etc.

There comes a time when you need to realize that things are changing. Holding yourself to traditional principles while the opposition is flipping the board is not a winning strategy.

I'm not saying anything specific we should do here though, just bouncing around thoughts I have on the matter

 

[LordsFire]

It's part of who the classic conservatives are. They're conservatives because they value tradition, rules, law, principles etc.

There comes a time when you need to realize that things are changing. Holding yourself to traditional principles while the opposition is flipping the board is not a winning strategy.

I'm not saying anything specific we should do here though, just bouncing around thoughts I have on the matter

It's not even a matter of holding to traditional principles being the problem. Traditional principles say that once the enemy crosses the line into fighting dirty, you fight back, and fight to win.

The problem is simple cowardice. People so fixated on being part of the beltway clique that they refuse to face the social rejection of doing things that are outside the elitists' overton window.

People too cowardly to respond appropriately to blatant slander. What's sick about is that you don't need to 'mud-sling' to respond appropriately to the lies of the Democrats, you just have to tell the truth. Practically all Federal-level Democrats are liars, hypocrites, bullies, etc. Joe Biden was openly known as a plagiarizer in the eighties, AOC made a fool of herself crying at an empty parking lot shortly after she got elected, Nancy Pelosi has her notorious 'we have to pass the bill to find out what's in it' line...

And this is before you get into how every Democrat policy pretty much ever has failed, how cities they run look like third world warzones, etc, etc.

'RINOs' and 'country club republicans' are those fixated on the veneer of propriety, rather than the actual substance, and they're all at best wretched cowards.

 

[Bacle]

And this is before you get into how every Democrat policy pretty much ever has failed, how cities they run look like third world warzones, etc, etc.

Except the towns and cities run by Dems aren't 'third world warzones'.

This is another of those bits of rhetoric that the Right likes to throw around to cope with the fact many Dem cities are doing just fine, by the metrics of most of their inhabitants.

Also, the 'truth' can only defeat lies if said lies are fought back against at the same level and with the same vigor; that's not something the Right has had very much luck with, due to Dems owning the mass media.

This is why I used the 'In the Pale Moonlight' example; 'truth' matters less than PR and media spin in the new political rule-scape, and until we have parts of the GOP willing to learn from Sisko and Garak's example, it will continue to fall further behind the curve in the culture war and modern political scene.

 

[Terthna]

Except the towns and cities run by Dems aren't 'third world warzones'.

This is another of those bits of rhetoric that the Right likes to throw around to cope with the fact many Dem cities are doing just fine, by the metrics of most of their inhabitants.

Some of them do in part look like one though, particularly where Antifa has rampaged.

 

[Bacle]

Some of them do in part look like one though, particularly where Antifa has rampaged.

Yes, and those are rather the exceptions than the rule.

The fact is most people who live in Dem cities are more or less content with how said cities operate most of the time, or at least not upset enough to want to try to get hard to get GOP mayors.

The idea that Dem cities are hellscapes their inhabitants just don't recognize as hellscapes and are horrible places to live is mostly Right Wing cope, built on the assumption that the values/life-style of 'country living' is a universal desire among most people, Left or Right.

 

[LordsFire]

Except the towns and cities run by Dems aren't 'third world warzones'.

Towns, much less so. It's a lot harder for a town's mayor to live in a gated community while running the rest of the city into the ground.

But look at Detroit, Chicago, Los Angeles, New York City, and some of the mid-sized metropolises, and the bad parts of town absolutely do look like war zones, including regular violence and death.

Yes, and those are rather the exceptions than the rule.

The fact is most people who live in Dem cities are more or less content with how said cities operate most of the time, or at least not upset enough to want to try to get hard to get GOP mayors.

The idea that Dem cities are hellscapes their inhabitants just don't recognize as hellscapes and are horrible places to live is mostly Right Wing cope, built on the assumption that the values/life-style of 'country living' is a universal desire among most people, Left or Right.

No it isn't. It's based on actual real-life experience.

Last year I went on a road trip out East. Just going through the outskirts of Chicago, the gas station I stopped at was an absolute shithole. There was trash all over the tarmac, random shit on the walls, garbage in the windshield wiper buckets (which were also dried out), it was like night and day compared to other areas.

I've also personally been through Detroit more than once, visited and stayed overnight with friends in the only partly bad neighborhoods. The place is a disaster.

Flint, Saginaw. Milwaukee.

These are places I have been to and seen myself. And that's before you get into the murder rates.

 

[Bacle]

Towns, much less so. It's a lot harder for a town's mayor to live in a gated community while running the rest of the city into the ground.

But look at Detroit, Chicago, Los Angeles, New York City, and some of the mid-sized metropolises, and the bad parts of town absolutely do look like war zones, including regular violence and death.



No it isn't. It's based on actual real-life experience.

Last year I went on a road trip out East. Just going through the outskirts of Chicago, the gas station I stopped at was an absolute shithole. There was trash all over the tarmac, random shit on the walls, garbage in the windshield wiper buckets (which were also dried out), it was like night and day compared to other areas.

I've also personally been through Detroit more than once, visited and stayed overnight with friends in the only partly bad neighborhoods. The place is a disaster.

Flint, Saginaw. Milwaukee.

These are places I have been to and seen myself. And that's before you get into the murder rates.

Yeah, and I live in Denver, one of the rather blue cities that is not a hellhole, like Chiraq or Detroit, and I know many people in other blue cities who do not see things that way.

A crapped out gas station and rundown neighborhoods with large crime rates is not some weird things just in cities; go to some places in rural West Virginia or even rural Kansas and you will see the same things.

However, rundown and dilapidated does not equal 'third world warzone' and exaggerations like that are part of why lots of people dismiss your sort of rhetoric and ignore actual problems with Dem cities the GOP tries to point out.

Your rhetoric might fly well with people from rural areas who don't spend their lives in the cities, and thus mostly just remember the worst bits, but for people who actually live in Dem controlled urban areas it's not going to be listened to much at all.

The fact is the Right Wing and hardcore GOP base feels like it is more and more out of touch with political and social realities on the ground in most areas, compared to the Left/Dems, because it keeps living in past paradigms and social realities that no longer hold true.

 

[LordsFire]

Yeah, and I live in Denver, one of the rather blue cities that is not a hellhole, like Chiraq or Detroit, and I know many people in other blue cities who do not see things that way.

The fact is the Right Wing and hardcore GOP base feels like it is more and more out of touch with political and social realities on the ground in most areas, compared to the Left/Dems, because it keeps living in past paradigms and social realities that no longer hold true.

Funny. I've had first-hand accounts from people living in Denver about how it has taken a rapid nosedive into becoming less and less safe, with homeless functionally taking complete control of some streets, since the Democrats got a lock on control of the city.

And that last part of your post? That's just you projecting your preconceived notions on the world. Again.

My comparison to war zones was not idle. From 2001-2016, Chicago had more deaths than US soldiers killed in Iraq and Afghanistan combined.

Chicago vs. Iraq & Afghanistan

Much news has been made recently about recently released statistics by the Chicago Police Department, which shows that the United States’ third largest city had 762 homicides in 2016. The num…

apholt.com

Second reference just for the sake of thoroughness:

By The Numbers: Chicago Murder Count Through The Years - IPM Newsroom

This embed shows the total number of murders – including non-negligent manslaughter – reported annually by the Chicago police. This chart is current as of July 8, 2020 and will not be updated.

illinoisnewsroom.org

You can claim this makes me 'out of touch' all you want, but the blunt facts disagree with you.

 

[Cherico]

Barcle isn't out of touch he just lives in an entirely different culture then the ones we are talking about.

This is a cultural map of north america.

Barcle lives in the area known as the Empty quarter which is insulting but the cultural map was made by someone in new england and new england.

His section of the country was essentially treated as a colony by eastern regions and companies the result of that ill treatmeant turned it into the kind of libertarian culture it is. Things are not nearly as bad in his neck of the woods.

The reigons we are talking about are the foundry and ecotopia, the foundry is today known as the rust belt.

So the Rust belt used to be the industrial core of the united states, it was one of the richest and most respected places in the united states. It built its industry with generations of hard work and smarts. During the great depression the left took over the region. At first things were decent and then in time they mismanaged the place into the fucking ground.

They went semi socialist and basically fucked the economy hard, the fact that our stratagy to win the cold war was to open up our markets to the world also fucked them hard. When people talk about leftist shit wholes their mostly talking about this region of the united states.

Currently this region is starting to wake up to how bad the democrats have shit the bed and that's why their a growing hub of the populist revolt. The old Democrat elites who caused this mess however refuse to go quietly into the night and are using violence, throwing their political enemies into prison and other dirty tricks to stay in power.


I live in ecotopia, when people bitch about woke assholes ruining the country? That's us, and yes I apologize for all of it because seriously god damned....

Eco topia was founded by the most utopian of the new englanders who intermixed with free wheeling aplician people and for a long time shit was good. It was a place that prized being chill, and not being too judgy for awhile. The problem is that the region fucking boomed, and it did so based on things that are not material things disconected from the real world.

It was too much money, too much success all at once and we became completely cut off from reality and we now had enough money to influence the rest of the country weather they liked it or not and proceded to do so. The thing is when your completely disconected from the real world you do stupid shit. So we are going down the rest belt path at hyper speed.

So yeah why are things so shit yeah its us....sorry.

 

[Terthna]

I live just south of Seattle, and while things aren't quite "third world warzones" levels of bad, things are still pretty bad here. Our local government wastes every cent they get on building vanity projects that only serve to pad out their resumes, for when they all eventually leave office and the city to continue their political careers somewhere else. This while the local economy is tanking, robberies have become commonplace, and there's a murder at least every week. Heck, there are some parts of the city where it's not safe even in broad daylight.

 

[Jormungandr]

Well the fact is he's not wrong that 'limits' have become a handicap for the Right.

The Left has no compuntion about violating and ignoring laws when they get in their way and have the power to do it and not suffer consequences.

Meanwhile the Right still wants to believe 'fair play' measures, and staying within the limits the Dems ignore, has any real ability to be a winning move, when history and current events show otherwise.

What the Right needs is more people willing to be Ben Sisko in 'In the Pale Moonlight', and care more about being effective in the new rule set, than about trying to be 'saints' playing by the old rule set.

But that won't happen, because it would require people on the Right to admit that the old rules no longer apply in US politics, and be willing to admit that this is not a fight that can be won, or even stalemated, by playing by rules the other side no longer follows.

You can't take the high road if the people opposing you are actively undermining said high road (e.g. drilling/digging under it) so it'll collapse.

You can't turn the other cheek when they'll either stab or shoot you in your other cheek.

Honestly, playing nasty is the only way I think anyone who isn't a Leftist NPC is going to survive at this point.

"We can't be as bad as them!" And where has that got anyone who isn't an NPC? That paradigm of thinking is under the "old" political, cultural, and social rules that no longer apply because the Left broke, smashed, and shat on them.

 

[King Arts]

Yeah, and I live in Denver, one of the rather blue cities that is not a hellhole, like Chiraq or Detroit, and I know many people in other blue cities who do not see things that way.

A crapped out gas station and rundown neighborhoods with large crime rates is not some weird things just in cities; go to some places in rural West Virginia or even rural Kansas and you will see the same things.

However, rundown and dilapidated does not equal 'third world warzone' and exaggerations like that are part of why lots of people dismiss your sort of rhetoric and ignore actual problems with Dem cities the GOP tries to point out.

Your rhetoric might fly well with people from rural areas who don't spend their lives in the cities, and thus mostly just remember the worst bits, but for people who actually live in Dem controlled urban areas it's not going to be listened to much at all.

The fact is the Right Wing and hardcore GOP base feels like it is more and more out of touch with political and social realities on the ground in most areas, compared to the Left/Dems, because it keeps living in past paradigms and social realities that no longer hold true.

No Bacle, I live in the suburbs. And I know people who live in the cities. They say they don't even stop to get gas in the city, they go out drive to the suburbs because they don't feel safe to stop to get gas.