Quest Deep Periphery Quest (Battletech Sandbox Empire Builder)

Atarlost

Well-known member
Within the BTech paradigm, it is not possible to reliably intercept and deter fighters at extreme standoff ranges, which is the fundamental strategic requirement for the kind of carrier you want to build.
It's not possible for real carriers to avoid planes either. Doesn't change that it's more efficient to fly a CAP than to combine a carrier with a cruiser. By all means have an armored flight deck, but a carrier's primary offensive and defensive armament is its air group. This isn't nBSG where an enemy can teleport a battleship into gun range of your carrier unless you've left it at a jump point and that's the only way gun armed carriers make sense.
 

ShadowArxxy

Well-known member
Comrade
It's not possible for real carriers to avoid planes either. Doesn't change that it's more efficient to fly a CAP than to combine a carrier with a cruiser.

You're both misconstruing my argument *and* ignoring the evidence I posted, while posting no evidence at all. It's not that real carriers can avoid enemy airstrikes, it's that real carriers can use the combination of long-range interceptors, CAP, and their escorting guided missile cruisers to -- exactly as I said -- reliably intercept and deter fighters at extreme standoff ranges.

In strategic situations where this was not true -- like in the relatively confined waters of the Atlantic in WWII -- real life navies built well-armed, armored carriers, and that's exactly what the Microraptor emulates.

"True" cruiser-carrier hybrids don't have a good record in real life, but a) that's Velociraptor, not Microraptor, and b) they do have a record of success in the technological paradigm of Battletech, and for good reason. ASFs are stupendously fast, carry weapons which cannot be intercepted by active defenses, and yet are extremely short range (they are capable of tactical movement only and not strategic movement), which completely nullifies the extended-range intercept and deterrence paradigm.
 

Jarow

Well-known member
More on the "assault carrier" design - while the thing literally everyone had been asking for since we first started getting dropships was a light carrier designed to fight alongside its ASF complement, the design requirements put the maximum number of flights possible (Which happened to line up with the Griffin's Roost "squadron") with room for rescue craft and escape pods. Ignoring quarters and escape pods, there were 510 tons free, not enough to add more. Reducing engines to 3/5 could help a bit, but not enough to add another flight. So what's the reason not to add weapons that will end up being used?

Beyond the ASF complements, 2 people decided to make designs, working from different directions. My "Near Combatant Carrier Dropship" was built on the idea of maximizing armor. Adding any more was impossible, so I then filled the rest of the room with weapons. The Microraptor started with weapons, and tried to optimize combat ability. If you wanted a cheap as possible squadron-sized carrier, you could have made an entry yourself reducing size down to the minimum needed to carry the ASFs. At that point, we'd have a third option to vote for here, deciding what we actually wanted to prioritize (which I expect to still be the Microraptor, we have been demanding something like it forever).

One thing that you might not be taking into account - ASFs are not that significantly faster than dropships. I built a few 12/18 ones faster than most interceptors to see if I could, and got something surprisingly reasonable. In some ways, dropships are more comparable to heavy bombers than modern warships. ASFs should be the primary weapons system for carriers, but that doesn't mean they should be the only weapons system.
 
Turn 35 - The Wild Boys Are Calling

LordSunhawk

Das BOOT (literally)
Owner
Administrator
Staff Member
Founder
Turn 35 - The Wild Boys Are Calling

It’s only the 2nd of January when Mary and Sarah contact you for a priority meeting.

It takes place in the most secure conference room in the Palace, and you soon learn why.

“Your Majesty, the analysis of the oversized lasers on the Free Folks jumpship has been completed.” Sarah begins. “They are intermediate in size between true capital naval lasers and the extended range 8cm lasers, with an estimated mass of between 100 and 200 tons. Without seeing them in action we cannot estimate performance, but range is expected to be extremely high.”

Mary takes over. “This is game-changing, Your Majesty. If we can develop something similar to arm our Dropships with, we will have a significant advantage. And if they can scale up lasers, there is no reason you cannot scale up autocannons as well to an intermediate stage. The ACDB has already met and have begun preliminary work and they report that both systems are feasible for rapid prototyping. With your approval we can begin.”

[]ApproveCost - 150,000, will consume 2 Military Research Slots, Will make available Subcapital Laser/1 and Light Subcapital Cannon this turn
[]DisapproveSCL/1 and LSCC will become available in the regular tech tree for 50,000 each with a Difficulty Target of 85 and R&D time of 1 turn

QM Note - You are basically trading greater cost for guaranteed completion during this turn rather than at the end.

Well, that was one of the better starts to the year.

What makes it even better is soon after the new year you discover that your daughter-in-law is pregnant again! You are getting TWO grandbabies this year! Plus, John is finally old enough to properly spoil and send back to his parents on a sugar rush!

Now if only the twins would settle down and find a significant other. But it looks like they have no intention of giving up the playboy lifestyle of a racing driver anytime soon no matter how many hints and disapproving looks you give them.

Jeremy has finally failed to dodge promotion and is now a Major and in command of 3rd Battalion, 2nd Regiment, 1st Brigade. And he’s very grumpy about it, when he isn’t busy being very proud of his unit and extremely busy running it.

Thanh hadn’t mentioned it to you, so you find out from reading the paperwork later on, but she’s taken a transfer to be the flight leader and ASF element commander, on board USS Endeavor as the CO of the Eagles on board. That surprises you a bit, until you learn that Petra has taken a position as one of the on-board analysts. Clever of them both, really, it gets them away from Griffsport and having to deal with your fussing over them, and out of babysitter duty.

There is a less happy situation on Pollux, however. A wildcat teacher’s strike over ‘excessive interference’ in the classroom by local officials. As far as you can tell, the teacher’s union that went on strike is actually upset when the local school boards implemented merit pay and organized greater parental involvement in their children’s schooling. On the one hand it seems like a relatively good idea, and certainly getting parents more involved is something you approve of. But the devil is in the fine details. The merit pay structure is extremely subjective and could be easily abused in that a major part of the evaluation is based on parent feedback on the teacher’s performance. The teacher’s are arguing that they’ve already seen parents abusing this by demanding better grades for their children even when said kids haven’t done the work to earn those grades.

This has rapidly become an extremely thorny issue. The local authorities have appealed to the planetary government, which has proven unable to resolve the issue and has appealed to the throne for a resolution.

Parliament is in recess, but this is time critical. You’ve been able to read all the documents and material from all sides in this, and frankly it is a mess. The potential for abuse is there, but there’s no actual evidence of it happening beyond ‘he said she said’ sort of anecdote. Pollux’s education system has lagged behind the rest of the planets, despite having a slightly higher per-student budget than any other region on the planet. On the other hand, students are far more spread out on Pollux than anywhere else on Griffin’s Roost so it is far more expensive to simply reach all of them. Teacher’s blame the administrators and local government for wasting resources and failing to properly support the classroom, administrators and local government blame teachers for failing to make use of the resources they have in an efficient manner and not involving parents enough. Parents blame teachers, administrators, and local government for being feckless about education, teachers, administrators, and the local government point out that parents on Pollux are far less, on average, involved in their children’s education than anywhere else and blame them for not making their kids put in the effort to learn.

Any solution is going to consume quite a bit of political capital, unfortunately.

[]Action
[]Side with the teachers, while the intentions are good with this plan the implementation is poor and needs to be reworked.

There need to be more resources available in the classroom, more consideration given to distance-learning to handle the remote and spread out nature of the highly agricultural communities on the continent, and strict oversight of administrators and school boards.

-25 Politics
Cost - 25,000
-1% GDP Griffin’s Roost

+1% POP Growth Griffin’s Roost
+5 Econ Rating - Griffin’s Roost
+1 Rating Change - Griffin’s Roost
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[]Side with the parents. There is no evidence beyond the claims of the teachers involved that anything inappropriate has occurred.

The schools have more than enough budget after the increased expenses involved in having a larger number of smaller schools that their kids should be receiving the same quality of basic instruction as anywhere else. The teacher’s need to be held accountable for their performance but the administration does not need any additional funds to waste and should be closely audited.

-25 Politics
Cost -25,000
-1% GDP Griffin’s Roost

+5 Econ Rating - Griffin’s Roost
+5 Health Rating - Griffin’s Roost
+1 Rating Change - Griffin’s Roost
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[]Side with the administration. The teacher’s are given plenty of resources, they just are too busy agitating for higher pay and benefits to actually do their job.

With the highly decentralized and spread out nature of the education system on Pollux there naturally is a requirement for a larger number of administrators in the Pollux education system, this is purely a consequence of the fact that each individual school has the same administrative overhead, but there are far more schools. Both the teachers and the parents are using the comparatively high administrative costs as a red herring to distract from their own culpability in the situation. The teachers need to focus on actually teaching, the parents need to focus on being positively involved in their kids' education as partners, not adversaries.

-25 Politics
Cost - 25,000
-1% GDP Griffin’s Roost

+10 Econ Rating - Griffin’s Roost
+1 Rating Change - Griffin’s Roost
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
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Jarow

Well-known member
Choice 1: 50k cost to guarantee two actions succeed, forcing us to do these two actions (which, admittedly, we'd probably take anyways), around a 50% cost increase.

Choice 2: Each choice gives -25 politics, 25k cost, -1% GDP, +1 rating change, and +5 econ. Beyond that,
Teachers: +1% pop growth
Parents: +5 health rating
Admins: +5 econ rating
(Note except politics and cost, everything is Griffin's Roost specific). For ratings, note that each increase of 5 can be thought of as a 50% chance of increasing the affected stat by 1 (health-> pop growth, econ->GDP growth), but lasts permanently.
 

Thors_Alumni

Well-known member
My mom was a teacher and she was always complaining about Teachers not getting paid enough so anything that increases the teachers pay is a good thing.


[X] Approve
[X] Side with the teachers
 

Lightwhispers

Well-known member
Well, that's a thing. Subcapitals are very shiny...

[X] Approve

For the Pollux issue, I am already inclined against the administration, because their screw-up in implementation caused it to come to our attention. (Other than that, they have a point, though.) As for the parents, the one thing I don't see defended against is that they are not as engaged with their kids' education, and since parents treating school as glorified day-care is a bit of a pet peeve of mine...

[X] Side with the teachers

(Also, yeah. Especially for primary-school, teachers tend to get shafted on pay, outside of special cases.)
 

Jarow

Well-known member
[X] Disapprove

I'm going to vote to save 50k on researching these given small failure chance.

[X] Side with the administration

I'm going to vote for a bit more econ for more economic growth.
 

ShadowArxxy

Well-known member
Comrade
[X] Disapprove.
[X] Side with the teachers.

The RL statistics I've seen strongly suggest that parental involvement is the highest weight factor in student performance; home schooling's performance advantage comes out statistically normalized when you calculate for the fact that it pretty much by definition requires extreme parental involvement. Likewise, private schools work well when they have parental involvement, but poorly when it's "parents substitute money for involvement".

More to the point, I've never seen a case in which "merit based" teacher pay schemes don't absolutely screw over teaching in the long run by massively increasing the already extremely high burnout rates for new teachers. Because a lack of seniority means that new teachers always get the last pick of classes (or don't get picks at all, and are just slotted in where previous teachers quit or retired), and that means they're the ones who will always take the hit from "merit" pay that is actually "student performance" pay, due to getting the most challenging classes with the least motivated students and parents. . .
 
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Wageslave

Well-known member
If we cannot provide better pay for our teachers, perhaps there are other things we can do to improve Quality-of-Life?

I seem to remember one strike IRL that *wasn't* about 'more money' but 'less hours in meetings' (apparently the administration was using meetings to 'punish' the teachers for 'being paid so well'.)

[X] Approve
[X] Side with the teachers





 

ShadowArxxy

Well-known member
Comrade
Thoughts:

1. Per discussion in the Discord, the administrators' claim that the teachers are "too busy agitating for higher pay and benefits" is objectively false.

2. The fact that the parents can't seem to come up with a better argument for their proposal than, "You can't officially prove this would be bad!" should not fill anyone with confidence.

3. The teachers are the only ones who honestly seem to have a good handle on the situation -- they're not insisting that there be no reforms, they're saying this proposed set of reforms is seriously flawed, and both in-character and real-life evidence generally supports that.
 
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Turn 35 - Wild Boys Are Far From Glory

LordSunhawk

Das BOOT (literally)
Owner
Administrator
Staff Member
Founder
Turn 35 - Wild Boys Are Far From Glory

One of the definitions of a good compromise is that it leaves nobody completely happy, but nobody completely angry either. This one was a good compromise, by your lights. People should know better than to bring things that really should be handled at the local or planetary level up to the Empress by now.

You directed that the budget for distance learning be seriously increased, pleasing the teachers and administrators but annoying the parents. You’d then mused that since this made it so that teachers on Pollux would only have about 80% of the workload of teachers elsewhere on the planet, that it was only equitable that they be required to spend approximately 20% of their time on the clock traveling from homestead to homestead to assist parents and students directly in dealing with the distance learning solutions. That pleased the administrators and parents, but annoyed the teachers. You then idly noted that with the decreased class sizes and thus reduced need for facilities that the administrative budget would obviously have less stress upon it, and thus could be trimmed to help finance the increased use of distance learning tools. This pleased the teachers and parents, and cheesed off the administrators.

You then gave the representatives from all three groups a smile that Sekhmet would consider a good intimidating grin and thanked them for bringing this to your attention, and that if they had any other thorny dilemmas that should be handled at a more local level, do please give you a call and you’d be happy to impose a solution.

You put a teeny tiny stress on ‘impose’ and you are certain that all three of them were in need of changing their underwear.

That should be that.

You then have a much more pleasant meeting with representatives from the Imperial Aerospace Werks, formerly known as the Royal Aerospace Werks and the people behind the Eagle and Roc ASF designs.

And they have a proposal for you. They have designed a dropship that mostly meets the specifications for the Assault Carrier competition that had closed, apart from being twice as massive and a spheroid design. You take a look, then have to take a second look. Clustered in the bow is a group of six of a rather more refined looking analogue to the oversized lasers on the Free Folks ship. Moreover in four massive single casemented mounts on the sides of the dropship are cannons that make the gauss rifles the design is carrying look puny.

“Your Majesty, we are calling this design the Warrior project, and what you see here is a rendering of the lead unit, HMS Warrior. Ten thousand tons in wet mass, Six 10cm subcapital lasers, a quartet of 204mm Subcapital Cannon, a secondary battery of Enhanced ER PPCs, Extended Range 8cm Lasers, Gauss Rifles, LRM 20 racks with Artemis fire control systems, and providing close-in defense a suite of Laser AMS systems. It lacks a Class 20 autocannon, but the presence of the new subcapital class weapons seemed to render that requirement somewhat moot. She would carry a full squadron of ASFs and a pair of Small Craft and is designed for extended patrol operations. We are currently working on a sub-variant of this design which would replace the fighter bays with several more small craft and a full battalion of space marines for boarding actions.”

You nod, looking at the rather ferocious looking image.

“Moreover, we have already built at corporate expense a facility suitable for mass production of this design on Nowy Gdansk. The local government there provided us with some economic incentives, so when not occupied with the production of military craft for the AFGE the facility will produce civilian dropships in this mass range. This does open the possibility that the assembly hall may be in use for a civilian hull when the order for a new Warrior is placed, but upon completion of the civilian hull the military order would take priority.”

He pauses, looking at you. “The construction hall is available now, if you’d like to have us lay down the lead ship of the class as the inaugural build for the facility we would be pleased to do so immediately.”

[]AgreeLays down 1 Warrior class dropship in Factory 16, will cost 46,494.81 this year and again next year.
[]DisagreeDesign will not be available for construction until Turn 37

QM Note - Warrior-class Assault Carrier is now available. This takes up 1 factory space on Nowy Gdansk, however it will start at Lvl 2 and further upgrades may be financed by the company or the planet in addition to normal upgrade availability. If there is a gap in orders for Warrior class ships, a civilian hull that takes 2 turns will be laid down and take up the slot. Players will be notified when the building slot is available.

Meanwhile, Parliament happens.

You hate that that’s a thing.

A group of very loud Senators is demanding that the Olympics be permanently cancelled and that all Cultural Affairs programming cease forthwith, as an ‘obvious waste of taxpayer money’. They are insisting that the money instead be spent on raising the basic living allowance cap for taxation. You note that the bill they put forth would shut down all Imperial supported initiatives regarding culture, society, education, legal aid, welfare, and law enforcement.

There’s no chance of this passing. Those backing it are seen as fringe elements at best and obviously put this forward intending for it to fail to burnish their credentials as ‘crusaders for moral governance’ or some such rot.

Your supporters in the Senate and Chamber of Delegates are asking you to step on this proposal so that they don’t have to even bring it to a vote. A preemptive veto is a power you possess, after all.

On one hand, this would spare both chambers the need to deal with this, depriving the fringe of talking points against them in the next election. On the other hand, those same fringe Senators have been loyal supporters of your military initiatives and stepping on them like this may offend them enough to put them in opposition there.

[]Preemptive Veto-5 Support Senate, -5 Approval Change, -5 Politics
[]Do not intervene-5 Support Senate, -2 Approval

In more substantive matters, the Free Folk have returned to the system, appearing no worse for the wear. They transmit a thank you for the sale of the old Falcon ASFs and helpfully include pilot and maintainer commentary for the use of your design teams. They have some minor trade goods for sale, including a few casks of exotic alcoholic beverages that they present to you as a gift to show their appreciation.

They are trading for fresh food supplies, and request permission to send a fuel skimming small craft to harvest some hydrogen from the gas supergiant in the system.

[]Approve+1% Interest Rate this turn, +.01% GDP all planets, Improves relations with Free Folk
[]Disapprove+.01% GDP all planets, worsens relations with Free Folk
 

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