United States Biden administration policies and actions - megathread

[Rocinante]

I mean right now it's the cheapest western fighter on the market and sustainament costs are in fact going down. It's just that when you buy a metric crapload of them the program will cost a lot

But it is making up for it in foreign sales.
Beating out both the French and the Swedes in salws

Yeah so our tax dollars paid for a corporation to develop it, it went wayyyyyyyyy over budget, but now they can sell it to foreign countries and make a profit. And what do we get?

Idk, it feels like someone picked my pocket, used it to make a profit, and then didn't even bother to even give me my original money back.

 

[Zachowon]

The money goes back TO the to government....

 

[Terthna]

The money goes back TO the to government....

Who then uses it on crap that doesn't benefit the average American citizen in the slightest, if it's not just straight up pocketed by corrupt bureaucrats and/or politicians.

 

[Blasterbot]

Who then uses it on crap that doesn't benefit the average American citizen in the slightest, if it's not just straight up pocketed by corrupt bureaucrats and/or politicians.

Hey they need a lot of money for that graft you know. and even more for the pork barrel spending projects. but you know the state of American cities really isn't their concern.

 

[Cherico]

The money goes back TO the to government....

thats great for you but most of us don't work for the government so we get left holding the fincial bag.

 

[Knowledgeispower]

Yeah so our tax dollars paid for a corporation to develop it, it went wayyyyyyyyy over budget, but now they can sell it to foreign countries and make a profit. And what do we get?

Idk, it feels like someone picked my pocket, used it to make a profit, and then didn't even bother to even give me my original money back.

ehhhh to be blunt blame the f-35 B for all the problems of it being late and over budget.

 

[mrttao]

The money goes back TO the to government....

does it? I am unable to find confirmation of this.

back in israel it was common knowledge that this is used as money laundering scheme by oligarchs of both nations.

Also, LM routinely bribes oligarchs abroad to them defraud their public by ensuring LM wins contracts

Lockheed bribery scandals - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

LM has ridiculously oversized lobbying and donations to USA politicians. And that is just the above board on the books funds funneled to them.
And also number 1 in number of incidents of contractor misconduct.

 

[Rocinante]

The money goes back TO the to government....

As far as I understand, LM sells them. The money goes to them, the private corporation.

But even if I'm wrong, as the other said. That money just goes to line the pockets of politicians, not back to me.

Either way, what's happened here is that the government took my money for a very expensive project that went way over on budget and way over on time lines. Then LM and the government proceed to make absolute fuck tons of money off of that money they took from me. What do I get in return? Jack shit.

Dude you're not gonna be happy if I stole your wallet and bought myself something I can use to turn a continual profit and then never gave anything back to you.

I'm not even arguing against taxes. I am arguing against taxing the public, giving that money to an already massive, multi billion dollar private corporation, allowing the corporation to then create and sell goods and make a massive profit for themselves, while the public who paid for it gets fucking nothing. They're just taking our money and giving it to billionaires. Talk about some wealth redistribution.

And the biggest fuck you from them is that they didn't even deliver on what was promised. It went way the fuck over budget and over time. And who pays for that? Oh right me and my fellow citizens again.

 

[Bear Ribs]

As far as I understand, LM sells them. The money goes to them, the private corporation.

But even if I'm wrong, as the other said. That money just goes to line the pockets of politicians, not back to me.

Yeah, I researched it a bit. The money goes to the defense contractors, the US government doesn't see any of it. No Federal budgets have any weapons sales listed as income, only taxes. If they mention where the money goes at all, news articles always say it goes to American companies or corporations.

The US brought in $192.3 billion from weapon sales last year, up 13 percent

Sales increased, but are they tied to the Trump administration's new policy push?

www.defensenews.com

 

[Rocinante]

Yeah, I researched it a bit. The money goes to the defense contractors, the US government doesn't see any of it. No Federal budgets have any weapons sales listed as income, only taxes. If they mention where the money goes at all, news articles always say it goes to American companies or corporations.

The US brought in $192.3 billion from weapon sales last year, up 13 percent

Sales increased, but are they tied to the Trump administration's new policy push?

www.defensenews.com

I did some basic searching before making that post that he quoted to tell me the government gets the money back. Still left the possibility that I was wrong because it was a quick search.

I was pretty sure it all went to the defense contractors though. They deisgn, build and sell the equipment, make all the profit, and it's funded by our tax dollars.

The military industrial complex is a massive wealth redistribution scheme.

 

[LordsFire]

Yeah so our tax dollars paid for a corporation to develop it, it went wayyyyyyyyy over budget, but now they can sell it to foreign countries and make a profit. And what do we get?

Idk, it feels like someone picked my pocket, used it to make a profit, and then didn't even bother to even give me my original money back.

Not liking how over budget things went, and the messiness around it, is a completely valid criticism.

There does need to be substantial reform.

Unlike some other parts of the government and government-adjacent apparatus though, the military-industrial complex has delivered what it's supposed to, the most powerful military in the world, with nobody even being close to competing.

We could definitely do without all the other shit they give us along the way though.

 

[Bacle]

Experimental aircraft designs almost never come in under budget, and the F-35 is an export bird, so the US isn't the only customer for it, which some people forget.

The R&D for it means money from the entire logistics train for the the F-35 in multiple, and increasing, nations around the world. The international sales of the F-35 more than cover the R&D overrun.

 

[Rocinante]

Experimental aircraft designs almost never come in under budget, and the F-35 is an export bird, so the US isn't the only customer for it, which some people forget.

The R&D for it means money from the entire logistics train for the the F-35 in multiple, and increasing, nations around the world. The international sales of the F-35 more than cover the R&D overrun.

And all of the money that they make back goes to them.

They take your money. It's not enough so they take more. That's not enough so they take more. Finally they have a product, built off of your back. Now they sell that to foreign nations and keep the profit. You get nothing. You just got fucked to arm the rest of the world and make some billionaires more money.

 

[Bacle]

And all of the money that they make back goes to them.

They take your money. It's not enough so they take more. That's not enough so they take more. Finally they have a product, built off of your back. Now they sell that to foreign nations and keep the profit. You get nothing. You just got fucked to arm the rest of the world and make some billionaires more money.

Eh, I get an air force, Marine aviation, and nuclear triad that is second to none, and that is nothing to sneeze at.

I also fundamentally disagree with the whole 'tax is theft' and 'any money going to the MIC is out of my pocket/could be better used elsewhere' arguments.

Also, well, the F-35 is a sexy plane, smart as shit, and helps do the jobs too mundane for F-22s.

 

[Rocinante]

Eh, I get an air force, Marine aviation, and nuclear triad that is second to none, and that is nothing to sneeze at.

I also fundamentally disagree with the whole 'tax is theft' and 'any money going to the MIC is out of my pocket/could be better used elsewhere' arguments.

Also, well, the F-35 is a sexy plane, smart as shit, and helps do the jobs too mundane for F-22s.

I'm not even arguing against taxes. I am arguing against taxing the public, giving that money to an already massive, multi billion dollar private corporation, allowing the corporation to then create and sell goods and make a massive profit for themselves, while the public who paid for it gets fucking nothing. They're just taking our money and giving it to billionaires. Talk about some wealth redistribution.

Yes but while the F-35 is super nice and awesome now, it went through a lot of issues in development, went wayyyyyyy over what it was projected to cost. It was an utter failure in that regard.

The end product is nice, yes. But you aren't gonna be happy when your contractor tells you your porch is gonna cost $1000 and then hands a $20,000 bill.

It's not that taxes are theft. It's that these companies get away with going way the fuck over on time and budget, and people are on here saying "oh well they make the money back." No, that's our money, it's not going back to the government or us. Our tax dollars were spent to give another company money to build a plane and sell it to other people, and we don't get any of that money back.

The point being, that complaining that these contractors go way above budget and way over on time, is a completely legitimate complaint. Its fair to complain about how the government spends our money. Saying "oh well, they make the money back," is utterly senseless.

It's like if a contractor said something would cost you $500. But then he buys a $1000 tool and throws that on your quote. But nah no big deal, he'll make the money back on that.

It doesn't make any sense.

 

[Bacle]

It's not that taxes are theft. It's that these companies get away with going way the fuck over on time and budget, and people are on here saying "oh well they make the money back." No, that's our money, it's not going back to the government or us. Our tax dollars were spent to give another company money to build a plane and sell it to other people, and we don't get any of that money back.

The point being, that complaining that these contractors go way above budget and way over on time, is a completely legitimate complaint. Its fair to complain about how the government spends our money. Saying "oh well, they make the money back," is utterly senseless.

It's like if a contractor said something would cost you $500. But then he buys a $1000 tool and throws that on your quote. But nah no big deal, he'll make the money back on that.

It doesn't make any sense.

Sure it does, because R&D costs are rarely fixed and shit hit's unforeseen snags all the time in aircraft development. This is something that's been true since the Wright Bros took flight. It's more unusual for a next gen air craft to come in anywhere close to budget, than to overrun it.

Skimping on R&D for aircraft development just to stay under budget costs lives, not just money. Same with building ships and a lot of other military equipment. Complaining about political graft is legit; complaining about 'trying to make it fly without killing the pilot or falling apart every 3 hours' work is glossing over how hard R&D work can be and how long the pay off can be.

People made the same complaints about NASA back in the day too, and yet the fact is the money that put Armstrong and Aldrin on the moon paid itself back multiple times over since in the innovations that trickled down tot he civie sector. The money that went into the F-35 has been repaid to the US in general, if not each individual the same way, in our dominance of sea trade and the fact that a growing list of countries are buying it, which is where the foreign export angle shows the quibbles about the R&D are kinda...moot, with the platform in service, the kinks worked out, and the R&D overruns already paying themselves off.

The unknown unknowns of R&D are often where the snags are in terms of R&D costs. Political hold ups or plain corruption can be issues too, but with aircraft it's usually something with getting the airframe up to the potential it has on the plans, and sometimes subcontractors will hit snags that idle the rest of the project for indeterminate lengths of time till the one snag is cleared.

Also, that money does come back to the US and reenter the US economy on the civie side through the civie employees of lots of companies, and not just the usual ones. Raytheon, Boeing, Lockheed Martian, Texas Instruments, 3M, even freaking Johnson and Johnson or Burger King can count as DoD contractors if you cast the net widely enough.

National scale and international scale finance is not the same as personal finance, and the reality is no single individual should consider themselves to have personally paid for anything around the F-35.

So stop acting like the F-35 came out of your personal pocket Roci, it didn't, and this whole notion individual taxpayers are somehow able to act like they get to expect backpayment from military R&D in cash in their own bank account back from the IRS or whomever is...it's nice rhetorical flourish for hardcore libertarian types and some fiscal conservatives who are behind the times, but it's not fiscal reality anymore than the idea that the dollar is worth anything other than what the US Federal Reserve wants it to be at any point. The money printers go brrr for the MIC too, not just for welfare or foreign aid, and all taxes do is pay down the interest on the national debt.

The idea personal finance and national/international finance operate on the same rules and same playing field is one of the most destructive memes that ever infected the US populace, particularly once we left the gold standard and became a fiat currency.

 

[Marduk]

It's not that taxes are theft. It's that these companies get away with going way the fuck over on time and budget, and people are on here saying "oh well they make the money back." No, that's our money, it's not going back to the government or us. Our tax dollars were spent to give another company money to build a plane and sell it to other people, and we don't get any of that money back.

The point being, that complaining that these contractors go way above budget and way over on time, is a completely legitimate complaint. Its fair to complain about how the government spends our money. Saying "oh well, they make the money back," is utterly senseless.

It's like if a contractor said something would cost you $500. But then he buys a $1000 tool and throws that on your quote. But nah no big deal, he'll make the money back on that.

It doesn't make any sense.

The cost overruns were R&D, not production. When you want to buy a hammer, you go to a store, pick a model you like, and pay the sticker price.
It's well known what a hammer does, what you want from a hammer, and how to make a hammer, and as such, what is the typical cost to make a hammer.
But there was no F-35 on the market for the US government to go and order by sticker price. They could do that with some F-15 or F-16 models, but there was no F-35. It had to be designed, put together, tested, and made to work. But how do you say what will it take to design an F-35 when it doesn't exist yet and it's in fact not just another plane but something with pretty insane, state of art pushing demands, rather than being just a typical, maybe slightly better multirole combat jet?

That's more like going to a biotech company and telling them that you want a cloned dinosaur. It's probably possible and some company may accept the deal if you offer them enough money. But of course they cannot guarantee they will get it done on time and within budget, because no one fucking did it before, and so good luck anticipating how long will it take and what complications will arise. Can you accurately tell me how much will it cost to do something that was never done before and how long will it take? F-35 was indeed a plane with hellishly extensive required specifications and complexity, some would even say that too much was demanded of it, that that extreme complexity of course got reflected in later issues with pushing the limits of available technology and engineering, and issues like that obviously take time and money to fix.

 

[DarthOne]

The cost overruns were R&D, not production. When you want to buy a hammer, you go to a store, pick a model you like, and pay the sticker price.
It's well known what a hammer does, what you want from a hammer, and how to make a hammer, and as such, what is the typical cost to make a hammer.
But there was no F-35 on the market for the US government to go and order by sticker price. They could do that with some F-15 or F-16 models, but there was no F-35. It had to be designed, put together, tested, and made to work. But how do you say what will it take to design an F-35 when it doesn't exist yet and it's in fact not just another plane but something with pretty insane, state of art pushing demands, rather than being just a typical, maybe slightly better multirole combat jet?

That's more like going to a biotech company and telling them that you want a cloned dinosaur. It's probably possible and some company may accept the deal if you offer them enough money. But of course they cannot guarantee they will get it done on time and within budget, because no one fucking did it before, and so good luck anticipating how long will it take and what complications will arise. Can you accurately tell me how much will it cost to do something that was never done before and how long will it take? F-35 was indeed a plane with hellishly extensive required specifications and complexity, some would even say that too much was demanded of it, that that extreme complexity of course got reflected in later issues with pushing the limits of available technology and engineering, and issues like that obviously take time and money to fix.

Cool story, still taxpayer money going to waste

 

[Zachowon]

Cool story, still taxpayer money going to waste

Is it a waste to create the most advanced fighter in the world?

 

[Knowledgeispower]

Also the way we set things up so companies will be compensated in R&D costs and like is one very simple reason. We set it up as such that if a program gets axed it being so usually won't fuck over the very specialized industry and skillsets that would be a lot more costly in time and money to replace each and every time.