This side discussion about the hypothetical Fourth (Fifth?) Partition of Poland between "KGBStan" and the Fourth Reich should've been given its own thread in the Alternate History forum. 
Armchair General's DonbAss Derailed Discussion Thread (Topics Include History, Traps, and the Ongoing Slavic Civil War plus much much more)
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@ATP's rants thread?This side discussion about the hypothetical Fourth (Fifth?) Partition of Poland between "KGBStan" and the Fourth Reich should've been given its own thread in the Alternate History forum.
TheRejectionist
TheRejectionist
There was supposed to be a joint Soviet Anglo-American operation to take together the German capital, however Eisenhower thought it would be a pointless endeavor because the Soviets had already entered Germany (Silesia and Baltic coast Prussia), the postwar occupation zone had already been decided before and they would have fought what amounted to soldiers who had the spirit or fighting will of a "cornered animal" that they would have faced soldiers, Volkssturm and SS remnants that had every intention of fighting for every damn inch of terrain and buildings and the Anglo-US forces didn't had the same wrath the Soviets had against Berlin.
Patton wanted to "save" Germany but wasn't allowed to, likely not only because of the agreements but also because he was a bit of a cunthead (which doesn't surprise me that the theory someone offed him sprung up in the first place) and many other things.
I know he was a great oratory speaker, tactician and many other positive things as well as beloved by many of his soldiers ...however .... Had I received the slapping treatment from him describing him as cunt wouldnt be enough.
Only becouse soviets tried to backstab them.Hitler was mad,but smart enough to see that,and backstabbed them first.
If he failed to do so,soviets would attack him - and we would live in soviet world now.
Well,you maybe would live,my parents would die so i would never be born.
@Jormungandr , @Husky_Khan i wish that it would be rants.When it happen,i would say "see,i told you" when we meet in massgrave.
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IIRC the Soviets were actually planning on attacking Germany, and the peace was to be used as a staging period (like one, two years) to ramp up production, gather supplies, build tanks and planes, et cetera... but then
Hitler was just smarter and faster than Stalin. shrug
The Fire Nation wants to partition a part of Poland too?!?! Oh no!
Buba
A total creep
And then the Fire Nation is all like can I haz Earth Nation clay? Is like totally Best Clay!!!1
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Hmmm, maybe I'll do a Partition of Polania thread like I did with the Gallia threads. I can give it a CYOA format and see if ATP still ends up in a mass grave by the end of it as he constantly predicts.
TheRejectionist
TheRejectionist
The idea of Icebreaker (USSR attacking first) has...little confirmation as far as I know. TIKHistory should have some videos on the matter with sources.
It's important to make a distinction between Suvorov's thesis that Stalin was planning an offensive War Against Germany really soon, and the far broader expectation that the Soviet Union saw an inevitability of conflict with Nazi Germany which he was currently mollifying with appeasement policies, and later on a conflict with the Capitalist Western powers in general.
The Soviet Union was acting quite expansionistic as it was already, having swallowed up Eastern Poland, the Baltic Countries, Bessarabia from Romania and going to war with Finland. And they weren't blind to Nazi Germany's latent hostility to the Comintern.
Aldarion
Neoreactionary Monarchist
What Husky_Khan said:
USSR was definitely not ready to attack anytime soon by the time of Barbarossa (from what I understand)... but both Germany and USSR saw world conquest as their goal and an armed conflict as inevitable outcome of said goal. Fact that Stalin decided to sort out things in the USSR first doesn't mean he has given up on world conquest.
Oh, and just a reminder: "Kherson will fall any day now."
Well,states are not immortal,so one day somebody would destroy Ukraine and take Kherson....but not now,and i think that it would be turks.Oh, and just a reminder: "Kherson will fall any day now."
Well,they want Holocaust Izrael,too !
Give them 7 years.If Poland would be destroyed,it would be around 2030.Both germans and kgbstan have good chances for doing that.Well,maybe i die thanks to kung fu flu by then.
Not Suvorow thesis,but facts he discovered.Like red army replacing border NKWD units on border, removing barbed wire on part of border, and NKWD convoy units on border/for future prisoners/
All things,according to soviet manuals,happened ONLY just before attack.Hitler was faster - but one month,maybe even week faster.
Russia was nowhere near that ready to attack Germany -- a year and a month, maybe, and that's stretching it.
Stalin was banking on more time; Hitler knew it, which is why he bum-rushed Russia in Barbarossa... and it worked.
If the Reds hadn't quickly moved all their production capability over the Urals, whoever's left in Russia would be speaking German right now.
Then why they removed barbed wire on border,and replaced NKWD guards with Red army? why convoy NKWD units,made for transporting prisoners,were on border,too ?
They have 16 paras brigades,which have gliders.They hold them on airfields,but do not build hangars,and do not plan to made them.Which mean,that they plan to use them in 1941 - in 1942,after soviet winter under open heavens,they would good only for burning.
They were not fully prepered for attack - but germans were even less prepared,and they still attacked.
Poe
Well-known member
this whole discussion is retarded. The point is Germany and Russia have overlapping areas of geopolitical interest and these will always lead to tensions. Both nations can not dominate Eastern Europe yet both nations security (economic and military) require doing so. Some gotcha about Nazi Germany not wanting war with the USSR is both idiotically untrue and proves nothing even if it were.
Precautionary measures mostly, which were ultimately ineffective because it was like a small dam made by beavers trying to hold back a flash flood. See, the Reds/Stalin didn't expect Germany to be able to attack that soon; they thought they'd have enough time to ramp up and invade first. They thought these additional precautions would be enough to respond to a hypothetical German attack and infiltration at that time.
Unfortunately, Stalin and the Soviets heavily underestimated the Germans and Hitler, and they were ready -- but sort of but not really.
See, while they did attack early, were sort of ready compared to the Reds, there were critical flaws in Germany's plans:
- They hoped to blitz all the way through the Soviet Union as they did France and other countries and win decisively before such supply issues would be a problem, since France and Poland were basically next door to Germany
- The taking of and reliance on Soviet oil infrastructure to supply their forces with critical fuel reserves
After losing a massive chunk of their territory from the German advance, the Soviets eventually managed to stabilize the front line, with the linchpin being Stalingrad which held. This basically fucked the German's over as their time basically run out.
The Germans basically repeated the mistake the French did centuries prior -- the infamous Russian Winter and supply lines.
They hadn't prepared for the killer cold because they didn't think they needed to, their supply lines were stretched thin, and they hadn't managed to take the oil fields which their strategy heavily relied upon. Soldiers literally froze to death, fuel was limited, spare parts were nonexistent, and food and other essentials were scant and hard to come by.
The Soviets held, moved their production behind the Urals, ramped up said production while the enemy was banging on the gates, and then literally drowned the Germans with numbers, ironically counter-zerging them.
If the Soviets hadn't held Stalingrad and Germany won that battle, Russia would've been fucked... but so would Germany to ultimately a lesser extent, since Stalin ordered all the oil infrastructure further south to be scuttled if it were in danger of falling to the Germans.
Germany needed those oil fields not just for fuel but for war materiel production, after all.
Aldarion
Neoreactionary Monarchist
I don't think anybody suggested that Nazi Germany didn't want war with the USSR?
Rather, both Nazi Germany AND USSR wanted war. It is just that it was in Germany's interest for war to happen as quickly as possible, whereas USSR was hoping to set Germany against the West, watch as they bleed each other dry in (Soviets hoped) a replay of First World War, and then invade and spread Communism to entire Europe.