paulobrito
Well-known member
Yep, it is a better tank, but...
Against arty, drones, minefields, and ATGMs by the dozen - not good enough to make a difference on this battlefield.
And that applies to any NATO tank.
Armchair General's DonbAss Derailed Discussion Thread (Topics Include History, Traps, and the Ongoing Slavic Civil War plus much much more)
- Thread starter ParadiseLost
- Start date
Against arty, drones, minefields, and ATGMs by the dozen - not good enough to make a difference on this battlefield.
And that applies to any NATO tank.
AnimalNoodles
Well-known member
Those are technical things. Thats why i specified the operational. Yes, the Leopard has some better systems..but do those systems actually impact this war on the operational level? No. The only real advantage on this level is crew survivability.
It does make a difference. Being more capable to operate at night makes it less likely to get hit by Russian gear that struggles with night vision too, better crew survivability means less catastrophic kills from all these weapons and that in turn means less dead crews and more repairable tanks that would be written off otherwise.
With better optics in some situations ATGMs can be stopped with smoke and suppressive fire.
Night operations... If technical things had no operational effects then no one would bother with new tanks since half a century.
AnimalNoodles
Well-known member
Of course
But these tanks were originally designed with a specific mission in mind...to defeat russian tanks coming across germany.
These tanks are being used as assault guns and infantry support instead of for maneuvers and tank destroyers, and are mainly being popped by artillery, drones and mines. Their advantages are somewhat nullified. With the sole exception of crew survivability, I dont think they are making that much of an operational difference over Ukraine's older tanks.
UberIguana
Well-known member
Tanks haven't been a big presence in recent fighting because most of it's happening in southern Ukraine, which is the most heavily mined region on the planet. There might even be more landmines deployed in southern Ukraine than the rest of the world combined right now. Tanks are of limited use in a place where mines are measured in numbers per square meter instead of the other way around. Once a tank gets immobilised because of the mines, artillery can pick it off (even Russian artillery) and drones can easily hit it.
If you want an operational difference you need a way to push through a kilometres deep minefield. From the looks of things Ukraine is trying to do this by prioritising Russian artillery. That still leaves drones, but stripping away Russian fires will certainly improve things.
If you want an operational difference you need a way to push through a kilometres deep minefield. From the looks of things Ukraine is trying to do this by prioritising Russian artillery. That still leaves drones, but stripping away Russian fires will certainly improve things.
Last edited:
I'm just pointing out a massive difference that alters the very way the tanks are deployed operationally - generationally superior night vision; for the last bloody time. And to some lesser degree the same goes for all the other optics and electronics.
MTBs were always designed for multirole duties to one degree or another, and the western ones of all things are definitely not specialized to be maneuver based tank destroyers, considering how you know, they are some of the heaviest MBTs around. You might put that tag on Leo 1's and old French MBTs, but that's about it.
So far 100 percent survivability
I would say the Leopard 1, the AMX-30, and the S-Tank all fall "towards" that end, although they're all designated as MBTs.
Lord Sovereign
The resident Britbong
@Buba
You're absolutely right. Imperial Russia was very much about that life like any Imperial system.
As @Lord Sovereign said, it only got worse.
You're absolutely right. Imperial Russia was very much about that life like any Imperial system.
As @Lord Sovereign said, it only got worse.
Lord Sovereign
The resident Britbong
Imperial Russia at least still had a military that wasn’t completely crippled by corruption and even in its disasters it acquitted itself well. The Japanese noted the Russians as being very brave in the Russo-Japanese War, and the Imperial Russian Army all but destroyed Austria-Hungary in the field in 1915.
Nepotism was the biggest problem in the system, and that is actually a lot less damaging issue than what Russia has now.
Buba
A total creep
Akshualy
in 1914 and 1916 - in 1915 it had its teeth kicked in.
Might've been premature lads...
Oh my bad it was a flat spin so like the other documented Su-35 crashes earlier this is clearly a fake.
😇
Oh my bad it was a flat spin so like the other documented Su-35 crashes earlier this is clearly a fake.
As we wait for confirmation on this, that reminds me.
Remember that first Su-35 that was reported as shot down, complete with videos and pictures of the crash but that expert posters here proved was fake because a flat spin crash was impossible?
Apparently now the NATO Nazi Propagandists are Still Pushing this Bullshit Story.
UK scientists analyse secrets of Putin's prized fighter jet
BRITISH and American scientists are analysing the secret long-range targeting mechanism of Russia's most advanced fighter jet, sources confirmed last night.www.express.co.uk
LOL... literally just making up this story about a plane that never crashed. What are they hoping to gain by spinning up these massive lies like this? And they are still parroting the lie that they captured the pilot as well... lol. Crisis Actor prolly.
At best this was just another of the half dozen Su-30's that crashed. And loads of those were lost. Stupid ass Ukrainian and RAF and USAF "experts" can't even tell the two apart even when engaging in forensic analysis of the aircraft components in Britain and America. LMFAO!
😇
Only partially.
There is very good book "Letters from Russia" written by De coustine in 1839 after his voyage to Russia.According to him,it arleady was hellhole,with corruption as part of society - beaurocrats do not get enough money for them and their families,becouse it was excepted that they would take bribes.
Only problem was,if somebody take too much,but those who do not take at all was considered as abnormal.
Aaron Fox
Well-known member
The GOP? No. It's 'Russia first under the table'. In any other era, the two parties would be side by side, now though? Yeah, no. The GOP is going through the same insanity as the Know-Nothings...
"America First" - Whatever dude, fuck the domestic policy, we just wanted to have a cool name while we troll the foreign policy hawks with most retarded ideas on it (sometimes even got to steal them from the reds), which is our #1 activity now, domestic policy is hard.
The grand irony of the supposed hardcore right wing nationalist faction getting increasingly obsessed about foreign policy, a specific part of it at that, and in an idiotic direction at that to add insult to injury...
Are these people oblivious to how ridiculous they are being or are they trying really hard to reignite some Russiagate style crap?
Carrot of Truth
War is Peace
Pre 1900's style isolationism basically we just tell and force anyone from the old world to fuck off from North and South America. Doesn't sound so bad to me tbh.
Horseshoe theory of politics keeps rearing it's ugly heads.
Ukraine is paying the price for Biden's shit-tastic withdrawal from A-stan because of how it burned so many on foreign policy, while the stolen election means some simply will not accept that someone can be ok on domestic issues, but have massive blindspots on foreign affairs.
Putin picked his timing and narrative for the invasion well, and the previous corruption in Ukraine soured many on it's rep before the 2014 events, and until Zelensky was elected that didn't really change. When he said I need ammo, not a ride, it should have been a rallying cry for both sides of the US electorate to support Ukraine. Instead parts of the GOP got jealous that Ukraine was 'distracting' from their pet issues, and/or just don't want to risk confronting Russia because they believe Russia will actually follow through on the nuclear threats if Ukraine is able to push them out.
I think Zelensky will be remembered alongside Churchill the long term, regardless of how retarded US politics gets.