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Armchair General's DonbAss Derailed Discussion Thread (Topics Include History, Traps, and the Ongoing Slavic Civil War plus much much more)
- Thread starter ParadiseLost
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Amid broken ties and families, Crimean views toward Russia start to shift
Eight years after its annexation from Ukraine, disillusionment is setting in.
www.politico.eu
>Allies
U.N. Vote Reveals Russia Has More Allies Than West Thinks | Time
archived 13 Oct 2022 22:28:23 UTCarchive.ph
That's terminology abuse. They aren't Russia's allies, they are Russia's business partners at best, and random countries that just share Russia's beef with the West for some local reason completely unrelated to Russia.
Some of the former ones have even demonstrated the coldly calculating nature of their relationship with Russia by demanding more favorable deals than before the war the moment Russia got isolated and had less competitive choice of who to buy\sell goods to.
By that logic China is also the West's ally, because it continues to do business with it.
All these "allies" couldn't care less about whether Russia will hold many, if any Ukrainian territories at the end of the war, though some would like the war to be over sooner rather than later because it's bad for their business.
China is a great example of "ally" because it's one of very few countries in the bunch that has the technical and economic means to potentially provide Russia with a whole lot of valuable material support if it wanted to... but doesn't do it. Because it would cost money, and even worse, damage their business with the West.
A stronger Russia might also not be in China's best interests since it would likely make Russia less dependent on China.
It's bound to be dependent on it for consumer goods anyway. China's choice is whether they want Russia to be a geopolitical and military ally, or an economic ally. A big captive resource economy to support their industry is what China dreams of, it's why they have all their schemes in third world countries, but in the end it may turn out that they have the best opportunity right on their northern border. And if they have to let China dictate the prices because they have no one else to sell to and no one else to get industrial goods from, no need to even bother with massive influence ops, debt schemes or other stuff like that.
That could be what they are planning - if Russia can't be much of a military ally, it can be useful to them that way, and being weak in fact helps with that, it's not like their third world "allies" are strong either.
DarthOne
☦️
You really are hung up on the fact that I don’t view this whole thing as black and white, aren’t you?
And no, I’m not denying that child kidnapping is abominable. So don’t even try to go there.
I'm hung up on you ignoring what was going on for so long here for so long, while also still wanting to meme about it and use it to try to push the idea that support for Ukraine is bad simply because the US gov is corrupt, and you continuing to try to shrug shit off when you get called out for this.
The US gov is bad, but we have never done this, nor has Ukraine, and this is just one of the few 'mundane' horrors of this war that Russia started.
I want you to pull your head out of your ass, @DarthOne, and stop with the fucking 'both sides' memes and pretending Ukraine is as bad as Russia just because Biden supports them and the Dems have used lies about them against Trump.
To be entirely fair, that's probably the most merciful thing the Russians have done in months. That's a very low bar, but it will presumably a) get the children out of a warzone, b) prevent said children from being raped, tortured, and murdered by the Russian army, and c) killed when the Russians lose the region and spray the area with artillery to either deny Ukraine living space or to inflict some damage on the Ukrainian army.
Circle of Willis
Well-known member
I would have thought a diplomat might know well enough to, you know, comport himself in a diplomatic manner, even if he disagrees vehemently with the other guy - seriously reminds me of the sort of beggar who'd yell at you and even throw the money you already gave him back at you because it wasn't enough for him. Genuinely hilarious that Redditors are calling him the unhinged narcissist right now. If I were Musk, I'd be pretty tempted to do something similar were I confronted with such hideously arrogant, ungrateful entitlement after I offer a country help (which apparently was legitimately important, especially in the early days of the war where it looked like Ukraine might've gone under in a few days).
I'm sure there's no need to worry and that Biden will pick up the tab though, the US already sent at least $40 billion to Ukraine rather than do anything at home with it last I checked and Zelensky wants another $57 billion for post-war reconstruction, so what's another couple billion to keep Starlink running. I imagine keeping Ukraine afloat is of greater interest to Biden & company than assuaging Elon's ego anyway, however imbecilic it was for the Ukrainians to react the way they did to his Twitter poll (talk about the sort of diplomat who might get even Genghis Khan to kill them for their sheer ungrateful jackassery...).
Apparently Elon Musk and Starlink is the only entity who shouldn't be paid for the equipment sent to Ukraine?
Pretty sure Maxxpro and Raytheon are still getting their checks. A hundred million dollar freebie isn't exactly a small amount.
Pretty sure Maxxpro and Raytheon are still getting their checks. A hundred million dollar freebie isn't exactly a small amount.
Arch Dornan
Oh, lovely. They've sent me a mo-ron.
I believe so too. The American debt has already reached trillions so more billions for the taxpayer to shoulder the burden is just following the script.
Circle of Willis
Well-known member
I don't believe it's unreasonable to expect diplomats to be able to control themselves and react diplomatically to a simple Twitter poll, especially when it's fairly obvious that the downside to pissing off a guy who is providing an important service to your embattled country massively outweighs whatever benefit exists to the action. (Like actually, what did Melnyk and Ukraine get out of insulting Musk? Two seconds of personal satisfaction at 'owning' him on a platform he will probably actually own soon? Totally worth the risk of losing, or at least having to pay for Starlink...)
Telling him off for saying they should offer peace to Russia?
How would you feel if Russia annexed Alaska in a totally rigged election and then Elon goes "Stop the war and give up Alaska!"
Or China with Hawaii or Guam
Circle of Willis
Well-known member
If I were a supposedly trained diplomat like Melnyk? I'd be careful to maintain professionalism and dignity in my response, which means either not commenting at all or dropping a simple and restrained 'we can't do that'. Preferably the former, especially if my president has already responded to Musk (as Zelensky already did indirectly). There are more than enough overgrown brats on Twitter who can throw profanities at Musk and try to cancel him over any little thing, I'd leave the gutter behavior to them.
I can assure you no US diplomat would casually say "We can't do that".
Especially if you sre asking a country to give up part of thier country.
Elon is trying to do what Macron tried early on.
It didn't work and the Ukrainians cussed him out as well.
When you are under war, you stop carrying about pleasantries. Ask anyone who deployed if they were stopping cussing
Lord Sovereign
The resident Britbong
Oh wow, really? That was an incredibly stupid thing for Musk to say.
Circle of Willis
Well-known member
If you're a diplomat and can't think of anything diplomatic to say, you probably should not say anything at all, to paraphrase an old saying. In general, maintaining pleasantries even under enormous stress is literally a part of the job of being a diplomat and while embassies are often closed & relations terminated during wartime, Ukraine is obviously not at war with the US in general or with Elon Musk specifically. (Keeping in mind that he wasn't actually making a demand of Ukraine to surrender or whatever BTW, literally all he did was ask a question and open a poll on Twitter - absolutely not something worth getting so mad over that you jeopardize the continued availability of an important service to Ukraine)
Also, Melnyk is not a dude who has been deployed to the front-lines, lmao. He's been involved with the Ukrainian diplomatic service since 1997 and in Germany since 2014 according to a quick look at his Wiki article. He isn't a child nor some traumatized soul, and has no excuse for his behavior period.
Basileus_Komnenos
Imperator Romanorum Βασιλεύς των Ρωμαίων
Elon's being a dickhead tbh. This was the same sort of outburst he had where he called one of the rescuers who saved a group of Thai schoolchildren trapped in a cave a "pedo guy." This was all because they rejected his proposal to send a submarine to help with the relief efforts in.
Honestly he shouldn't be throwing his hat into the realm of geopolitics if he doesn't know what he's talking about. His take was pretty much on the level of what Hollywood celebrities tweet/say when they're away from their publicists and PR firms.
Elon's also now shilling for the CCP calling for a "special administration zone" for Taiwan under the leadership of the PRC, to make an arrangement that's "more lenient than Hong Kong."