Armchair General's DonbAss Derailed Discussion Thread (Topics Include History, Traps, and the Ongoing Slavic Civil War plus much much more)

Have you missed the last 2 weeks of news?
Russia is a old tiger with stiff joints and big teeth that look very dangerous but are rotten inside. It might get a heart attack if it moves too violently.
I'm not sure of that, given how much bullshit propaganda Zelenski and Kiev have been caught putting out.

Russia may not have the strength of the old USSR, but the are not as weak as you seem to wish to think they are.
While a nuclear attack on Ukraine may not trigger a nuclear response from NATO, it may trigger a military response, especially if the wind blows the wrong way, and definitely will provoke a unprecedented political response, and rightfully so.
That is absolutely a possibility, I agree, given the prevailing winds in the area, as we saw with Chernobyl.

Fallout hitting a NATO member would be a massive clusterfuck, which is why I expect we'd see Russia use low yeild airbursts that cause minimal fallout but can still flatten military formations or wreck a good portion of Kiev.
And yet again we are lucky you are not a western politician. Perish the very thought of backing off on sanctions if Russia uses nukes in Ukraine. Russia needs to be sure that using nukes in Ukraine will make current sanctions look measured, reasonable, and not all that bad. Nevermind all nuclear testing bans will go to hell, and on top of that NATO will except all its members from nuclear non-proliferation treaty regarding creating own nuclear deterrents, will NATO covering them in the transition phase.
The nork example exactly why you are wrong. It was already done to them since decades, and its definitely hurting them more than anyone else.
Russia has learned to handle sanctions, but there is a reason we have not sanctioned the oil or gas exports, and not just to keep Europe from freezing or keep gas prices from getting worse.

We sanction the oil and gas, and Moscow has little reason not to break out the nukes to make a point.

Also, unless China comes out against such a strike, Russia can still use thier alternative to SWIFT.

And I do not have a problem with other NATO nations pursuing ng thier own nuclear programs or weapons; I've even said I think a nuclear Poland would be a good regional counter to Russia. Nuclear non-proliferarion is effectively a dead letter, particularly after Obama's stupid deal with Iran.
This is a highly repeated rumor that exists and is highly repeated purely and specifically for the benefit of Russia. Its a r umor, which is why despite being such a far reaching and indefinite promise, there is no signed document for it. Please stop.
It doesn't matter if you or I think it was just a rumor; Russia believed it was an agreement made in good faith, even if it was just verbal, feels it was lied to, and no amount of trying to say 'the agreement didn't happen' is going to change that.

Just like no amount of knowing the 2020 election was stolen is going to get Biden's 'win' reversed at this point. Deal with the world as it is, not as you wish it to be.
We all know Russian leadership is perfectly capable of making up reasons for more and more landgrabs until they defend themselves into the shape of an empire. But any country whose leaders have some cheeky imagination can do that. There is no reason why Russia's attempts at that should be taken at face value.
Except anyone who can read a topo map and has any military history knowledge knows it's not all bunk.

Both Napoleon and Hitler used the same invasion corridor, and Russia has not forgotten that, and will not leave themselves open to anything like that again, if it is in thier power to prevent.

You don't have to like it, but it's not illogical.
Of course we should not ignore it. But not ignoring something someone says is very different from accepting that said someone should be given what they demand.
Sometimes the appropriate response is "don't even fucking think about it", which is different from ignoring it too.
Also, as far as real world vision of what happens when Russia is given a relatively free hand in defining the neutrality of a supposed buffer state, you can check out the state of Belarus.
Long story short, its no neutrality at all.
A Belarus type neutrality might be the least worst option, unfortunately, unless Zelenski can strike a bargain with Russia on his own that is different.

I know a lot of this is unpleasant to have to contemplete, but we need to face the reality we have, not the reality we wish we had.
 
There needs to be a way for this war to end. Russia has made demands that aren’t entirely unreasonable and though initiating war is wrong, pushing NATO into Russia’s back yard is significant provocation.

Putin is not going to pull out without some concessions from Ukraine short of total ruin inflicted on Russia. We have to acknowledge that and be reasonable, not live in a fantasy world where Putin is the Dark Lord and we have to courageously stand up to him.

Had we been more sensitive to Russia’s concerns this war might have been avoided and if we start being more concerned, maybe an even more terrible war can be avoided.

But what is our attitude?

15b06c0b445e1fe691cd6bbd8cfa85265643ac31ee26dc5d1e3789c714e35c77_1.jpg


Are we going to march into World War III because we can’t compromise? Why must we be so totally hard assed that we demand Russia and Putin be completely humiliated or have total war?
 
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Heck, Ho Chi Minh wasn't even a real commie. He just wanted the French to leave and asked the US for assistance first. The US said "no". The USSR said "we'll help" and that's when the fustercluck started.

The Vietnamese actually overthrew a "communist" dictatorship and restored a monarchy (Cambodia's, i.e.: they got rid of Pol Pot).

Not really the place for it, but Ho Chi Minh was an agent of Moscow from the start and blaming the U.S. for him formalizing-not turning to-this relationship is without merit.
 
Is there some sort of time vortex in the baltic states or Warsaw that means a missiles from there takes ages to hit Moscow, but Ukraine could launch normally?

First, my apologies for just now responding; I've been extraordinarily busy with life. As for your question, there is no time vortex but there is something called geography and its associated concepts of distance and flight times, which would be useful to apply here. Let's put it into context:

Distance from Warsaw to Moscow: 1151 km
Distance from Kharkov to Moscow: 648 km

Kharkov is roughly half the distance of Warsaw to Moscow, which means missiles from there have a reduced flight time to their target. This dramatically increases the chance of a decapitation strike against Russian leadership, as well as reduces their ability to respond, which takes us into your next point.

And in the ensuing 60 years, things have changed. Most notably, the deployment of SSBNs, which allow second strike capability regardless of what happens on land. We still probably wouldn't have been thrilled with Russian missiles in Cuba, but it wouldn't have been an existential crisis the way the OG Cuban missile crisis was.

That is dramatically out of touch with advancements in the last few decades, and definitely understates the U.S. reaction. For the first, the vulnerability of submarines with things like LiDar is increasingly in question, which puts second strike capabilities via submarines at risk; saturation attacks and ABMs have thus increasingly become in vogue for the Sino-Russians. As for the former, you'd have to explain why in January and February the U.S. was so forcefully threatening a response if the Russians followed through on their threats to send missiles to Latin America, why NATO was forward deploying nuclear weapons into the East and why they reacted so vigorously to Belarus recently changing its constitution to allow nuclear weapons to be based in it; if the action is meaningless, U.S. and NATO responses don't support that interpretation.
 
First, my apologies for just now responding; I've been extraordinarily busy with life. As for your question, there is no time vortex but there is something called geography and its associated concepts of distance and flight times, which would be useful to apply here. Let's put it into context:

Distance from Warsaw to Moscow: 1151 km
Distance from Kharkov to Moscow: 648 km

Kharkov is roughly half the distance of Warsaw to Moscow, which means missiles from there have a reduced flight time to their target. This dramatically increases the chance of a decapitation strike against Russian leadership, as well as reduces their ability to respond, which takes us into your next point.



That is dramatically out of touch with advancements in the last few decades, and definitely understates the U.S. reaction. For the first, the vulnerability of submarines with things like LiDar is increasingly in question, which puts second strike capabilities via submarines at risk; saturation attacks and ABMs have thus increasingly become in vogue for the Sino-Russians. As for the former, you'd have to explain why in January and February the U.S. was so forcefully threatening a response if the Russians followed through on their threats to send missiles to Latin America, why NATO was forward deploying nuclear weapons into the East and why they reacted so vigorously to Belarus recently changing its constitution to allow nuclear weapons to be based in it; if the action is meaningless, U.S. and NATO responses don't support that interpretation.

What about the distance from Narva or Daugavpils to Moscow? Narva-Moscow is 816 km and Daugavpils-Moscow is 770 km. And the distance between Narva and Russia's second-largest city of St. Petersburg is just 159 km, or over four times less than the distance between Kharkiv and Moscow. (Daugavpils to St. Petersburg is 548 km, which is still less than the 648 km from Kharkiv to Moscow.)
 
There needs to be a way for this war to end. Russia has made demands that aren’t entirely unreasonable and though initiating war is wrong, pushing NATO into Russia’s back yard is significant provocation.

Putin is not going to pull out without some concessions from Ukraine short of total ruin inflicted on Russia. We have to acknowledge that and be reasonable, not live in a fantasy world where Putin is the Dark Lord and we have to courageously stand up to him.

Had we been more sensitive to Russia’s concerns this war might have been avoided and if we start being more concerned, maybe an even more terrible war can be avoided.

But what is our attitude?

15b06c0b445e1fe691cd6bbd8cfa85265643ac31ee26dc5d1e3789c714e35c77_1.jpg


Are we going to march into World War III because we can’t compromise? Why must we be so totally hard assed that we demand Russia and Putin be completely humiliated or have total war?
Uh, this entire conflict is because of Putin having the very attitude you accuse us of having. Unless he's insane or deluded, he has to know that by threatening nukes, he faces nuclear armageddon in return. Further, do you suggest we cave every time some hostile country threatens to use nukes? North Korea, for example?
 
This is a highly repeated rumor that exists and is highly repeated purely and specifically for the benefit of Russia. Its a r umor, which is why despite being such a far reaching and indefinite promise, there is no signed document for it. Please stop.

No, it's completely and utterly true that NATO lied, we gave multiple informal assurances to the effect that NATO would not expand from senior officials, and then promptly went back on our word to Moscow. Since 1993 they've been consistently begging us to stop doing this, we've refused, and now the Bear has come out of retirement for exactly this reason. Stop being a hack on this.
 
What about the distance from Narva or Daugavpils to Moscow? Narva-Moscow is 816 km and Daugavpils-Moscow is 770 km. And the distance between Narva and Russia's second-largest city of St. Petersburg is just 159 km, or over four times less than the distance between Kharkiv and Moscow. (Daugavpils to St. Petersburg is 548 km, which is still less than the 648 km from Kharkiv to Moscow.)

All are still longer than Kharkov, and we could modify it to, say, Sumy which would reduce it to just 569 kilometers. Distance to St Petersburg doesn't matter because the political leadership necessary to coordinate a Russian war effort/nuclear response is in Moscow.
 
There needs to be a way for this war to end. Russia has made demands that aren’t entirely unreasonable and though initiating war is wrong, pushing NATO into Russia’s back yard is significant provocation.

Putin is not going to pull out without some concessions from Ukraine short of total ruin inflicted on Russia. We have to acknowledge that and be reasonable, not live in a fantasy world where Putin is the Dark Lord and we have to courageously stand up to him.

Had we been more sensitive to Russia’s concerns this war might have been avoided and if we start being more concerned, maybe an even more terrible war can be avoided.

But what is our attitude?

15b06c0b445e1fe691cd6bbd8cfa85265643ac31ee26dc5d1e3789c714e35c77_1.jpg


Are we going to march into World War III because we can’t compromise? Why must we be so totally hard assed that we demand Russia and Putin be completely humiliated or have total war?
That's why WW2 happened. American style liberalism cannot compromise, it is the all consuming ideology that will take over no matter the cost, even if genocide is required. For all the talk of communism not being able to survive in one country that is exactly the way the US version of 'capitalism' behaves; it cannot survive except by turning the rest of the world into colonies or subcontractors. Our leaders will engaged in nuclear holocaust if they feel they must.
 
If Russia hadn't been so horrible to those countries, they never would have run to NATO for protection from them.

If you're going to hold Soviet history against the Russians, then don't be surprised when they use 1941 against NATO. This reddit tier understanding and analysis of geopolitics is going to get a lot of people killed because of sheer stupidity, that's all that is; the field of Cold War studies and expert old hands has been unanimous since the 1990s this was going to be the end result of the actions the U.S. and NATO were pursuing.
 
Have you not paid attention to the past couple of decades for how Russia continues to treat its neighbors?
Have you not paid attention to how the US runs the world? Russia is doing nothing that hasn't already been done by the US. This entire conflict is due to the US trying to do its level best to buck-break Russia. Russian behavior is the result of US provocations in Russia's backyard. What do you think the US would do if China started messing around in Mexico like the US has been in Ukraine?
 
I'm not sure of that, given how much bullshit propaganda Zelenski and Kiev have been caught putting out.

Russia may not have the strength of the old USSR, but the are not as weak as you seem to wish to think they are.
That is absolutely a possibility, I agree, given the prevailing winds in the area, as we saw with Chernobyl.
The very fact that they still aren't having a victory parade, nor are preparing for it, shows that they were overestimated, and typical "Russian problems" also common in civilian organizations, government in particular, plague the army horrendously.
Fallout hitting a NATO member would be a massive clusterfuck, which is why I expect we'd see Russia use low yeild airbursts that cause minimal fallout but can still flatten military formations or wreck a good portion of Kiev.
Russia has learned to handle sanctions, but there is a reason we have not sanctioned the oil or gas exports, and not just to keep Europe from freezing or keep gas prices from getting worse.
Yup. Except Russia has not learned to handle this kind of sanctions. No one did, unless being North Korea counts as "handling" sanctions.
We sanction the oil and gas, and Moscow has little reason not to break out the nukes to make a point.
Oil and gas weren't not sanctioned to not provoke Russia, they weren't sanctioned to not cause Germans and Italians to freeze in the dark.
Also, unless China comes out against such a strike, Russia can still use thier alternative to SWIFT.
Sure. They could have done that years ago.
Why didn't they?
Yeah, it's still significantly worse than SWIFT.
And I do not have a problem with other NATO nations pursuing ng thier own nuclear programs or weapons; I've even said I think a nuclear Poland would be a good regional counter to Russia. Nuclear non-proliferarion is effectively a dead letter, particularly after Obama's stupid deal with Iran.
Consider what would Putin and the rest of Russia's warhawks (as opposed to their western apologists) say about that.
Don't forget Obama-Clinton were also willing to give a similarly stupid deal to Russia.
Consider how Russia (and Iran) acted following such stupidly lenient deals.
This is a bit of a hint what kind of deals should be offered to them in the future.
It doesn't matter if you or I think it was just a rumor; Russia believed it was an agreement made in good faith, even if it was just verbal, feels it was lied to, and no amount of trying to say 'the agreement didn't happen' is going to change that.
Who's Russia? Putin?
For one Gorbachev seems to have no idea.
Of course Russian politicians can claim to believe anything and everything, whatever is most convenient for them. And if they need a grievance to throw back when criticized for militant actions they were going to do regardless for own self-beneficial motivation, well, imagination is the limit.
In real world, there is a fucking reason why even minor international agreements are written on paper, and have both executive and legislative branches of government sign them.
What you are arguing here is that Soviets were such morons that they expected such a significant commitment to apply to the west and be followed through by all future governments of all NATO countries. As if they thought that in the west opposition parties that disagree can in fact win.
And we didn't hear of it for some reason until the odd moment when Putin needed stuff to whine at NATO for.
The alternative explanation is that Russian propagandists have made up the story to justify Russia's aggressive geopolitics in a somewhat plausible way. Isn't it more realistic?
Just like no amount of knowing the 2020 election was stolen is going to get Biden's 'win' reversed at this point. Deal with the world as it is, not as you wish it to be.
Tell that to Russians.
Alternatively, tell the Chinese that they need to start a rumor that some Soviet leader promised them Vladivostok.
Except anyone who can read a topo map and has any military history knowledge knows it's not all bunk.

Both Napoleon and Hitler used the same invasion corridor, and Russia has not forgotten that, and will not leave themselves open to anything like that again, if it is in thier power to prevent.

You don't have to like it, but it's not illogical.
The greater issue with that thinking is that every bloody country can think of some amount of someone else's territories owning which would improve their own security greatly.
What then? Should every nuclear power be excused to act like you are excusing Russia to act?
Should every hypothetical nuclear power become such to follow suit?
What happens when their ambitions collide?

A Belarus type neutrality might be the least worst option, unfortunately, unless Zelenski can strike a bargain with Russia on his own that is different.
LMAO, my point was specifically that Belarus isn't neutral, its a puppet state in all but name. Russian police comes in to suppress protests and Russian military treats the place like their backyard. That's exactly the kind of stuff Ukrainians are fighting to not have.

I know a lot of this is unpleasant to have to contemplete, but we need to face the reality we have, not the reality we wish we had.
Dealing with this sort of foreign powers, letting them know you're willing to be a doormat is exactly what makes the reality unpleasant. Nothing inspires their aggression more than the impression that their enemies are weak and willing to back down at as much as an angry tirade, some saber rattling, and a ridiculous, made up verbal promise from the past.
 
Have you not paid attention to how the US runs the world? Russia is doing nothing that hasn't already been done by the US. This entire conflict is due to the US trying to do its level best to buck-break Russia. Russian behavior is the result of US provocations in Russia's backyard. What do you think the US would do if China started messing around in Mexico like the US has been in Ukraine?
Did we take over Cuba?
 
Uh, this entire conflict is because of Putin having the very attitude you accuse us of having. Unless he's insane or deluded, he has to know that by threatening nukes, he faces nuclear armageddon in return. Further, do you suggest we cave every time some hostile country threatens to use nukes? North Korea, for example?
No he doesn't, not if the nukes are used on Ukraine and not NATO soil.

If Putin decides to actually hit a NATO member with a nuke, then Russia may face nuclear attack, but Ukraine is not in NATO and we need to stop acting like it is.

Being all 'rah, rah, this is all Putin's fault, Russia bad' may feel good and righteous, but it ignores a lot of the historical realities of the situation, in favor of war-hysteria and simplistic and inaccurate 'black and white morality' that is effectively internal western propaganda.
 
Did we take over Cuba?
Bay of Pigs? Brink of WW3 after the Soviets stationed nukes there (in retaliation for the US basing nukes in Turkey and the crisis was averted by the Soviets backing down and the US agreeing to withdraw their missiles)? Repeated failed assassination attempts against Castro? We did everything short of war because nuclear holocaust was result if we pushed too far. Back then JFK was able to impose some moderation on the psychos in the US foreign policy establishment, but then got his brains blown out for standing up to them too much.
 

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