Ehhh... Ukraine is 'Wag the Dog' in real life. There is no contest between Sundown Joe and Volodymyr Zelensky in brainpower and charisma and so Ukraine, which ain't a part of the EU OR NATO, has gotten who knows how many multiples of its defense budget and possibly its whole budget in ordinance, systems, training and etc. with basically zero pushback since there's no US president to feel put upon, upstaged, offended or otherwise get pissed off...
Armchair General's DonbAss Derailed Discussion Thread (Topics Include History, Traps, and the Ongoing Slavic Civil War plus much much more)
- Thread starter ParadiseLost
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LordsFire
Internet Wizard
You really don't have a clue how war works, do you?
No, I don't think, he does. If his logic actually held, the Russians wouldn't have needed our (the Western Allies') material aid that we churned out and sent to them. Also, I think he never had of a certain Epirote King and how he kept winning, yet still somehow lost.
Ukraine would've been stronger if it had gone with 'hardcore ironman' mode and refused all those outside weapons that were just crutches preventing true greatness!1!...
...or they'd probably be losing Kharkhiv to a humanitarian catastrophe encirclement just like Mariupol while the corpses of their soldiers keep piling up trying to keep the 'I am inevitable' Russian artillery advantage from getting within range of Zaphorizhizha, Mykolaiv, and other cities... Donetsk and Luhansk are LONG gone...
TheRejectionist
TheRejectionist
I heard of Pyrrhus, it is one of the ancient stories we actually study in school. And for me it is perfectly acceptable that Zelensky meets the same end since we don't have skin in the game nor the majority of Italians want it.
Especially since those weapons are not made for free by the companies and are paid by the Italian taxpayer and keeps PRETENDING FREE STUFF.
Yes Hitler 2.0... Jesus you sound like Ian or CalBear on alternatehistory.com.
Anyone who is not on American friend list is Hitler at some point. I lost count how many times I have seen in my life in Italian and international newspapers someone being called the Hitler of something just because it was geopolitically opposed to the globalist hegemonic Axis of NATO.
Zelensky is not Pyrrhus in this story, he isn't the man slowly chipping his nation away sending his armies into a foreign land. Though, it is not fair to compare Putin to Pyrrhus since the latter was a great leader and could have forged an empire of his own as opposed to Putin who is just a despot pinning for glory days. I was only using him as an example of how one could win, but still lose. But, yes, you would be fine with it, because you'd rather stick your head in the mud and pretend nothing is happening.
Nothing is free, especially what men hold to be praiseworthy. If we truly want to maintain something worthwhile, we must be willing to pay the price for it, even if it is steep. And most of us know what the Ukrainians are fighting for, and it is the most praiseworthy goals to fight for- freedom against tyranny, especially that of the foreign variety. Also, there is the fact that Russia is not just going to stop at the Ukraine, they didn't stop with Transnistria or with South Ossetia and certainly didn't stop with Crimea or their puppets in the East (which is what sparked this war, their overvaulting ambition and greed). They are just going to keep going until they are stopped or have gorged on everything they want...
So, really, it is an investment. To stop the Russians here and now, before they do any more damage. It is an investment in peace, and we can buy it at an all time premium. Not fight a war now, in return for not fighting the war that will be coming in the future if Russia can succeed in their objectives. As I said, Russia is going to want more, somewhat like Lays Potato Chips.
That is actually hilarious. NATO is not a hegemony, it is a mutual defense pact. And not just any mutual defense pact, but one aimed at defending against a power that wished for global hegemony. NATO was slowly coming apart until the Russians starting dicking around everywhere.
And, I'd agree. Calling Putin Hitler is not very fair...to the Austrian painter. The man's name is bandied around too much as an invective, and this hurts the times when the comparison really should be made. A better comparison that should be made is that these three nations would have led the charge against Russia in the past, given their past national valour and now are just acting like a bunch of appeasers, who think feeding (and possibly fellating) the bear will prevent them from getting mauled.
LordsFire
Internet Wizard
As Hlaalu Agent has said, here's a key part of your ignorance.
Every nation in Europe, and arguably in the world, has skin in the game in Ukraine. Because if Russia isn't stopped in Ukraine, it will keep expanding, and every time that they're allowed to, they will gain more power and leverage for further expansions and coercion.
By stopping Russia in Ukraine, by breaking them militarily, it is ensured that they won't soon have to be fought in Moldova, or Bulgaria, or Estonia, etc, etc.
And with a little providence, maybe getting their asses kicked will cause the traditional next stage of the Russian political cycle, political collapse and overthrow getting rid of the old regime.
Imagine simping for Brelusconi's probably corrupt Russia connections.
Yes he is literally Hitler 2.0. He even used Hitler's talking points.
And you Italians have some nerve to not stand vigorously against what Putin is doing considering what y'all go up to in the 20th Century.
Y'all are lucky we let you remain a country after WW2. Maybe doing so was a mistake. Maybe the Allies should have carved Italy up and made it a protectorate of various Allied Nations. Because your tendency to sympathize with a Dictator is troublesome.
TheRejectionist
TheRejectionist
Carrot of Truth
War is Peace
Funny you say that, so, what's Italy buying to replace the stuff sent?
If the answer is "nothing", that means this stuff would probably stay in warehouses for some years and then have to get scrapped, also at taxpayer's expense.
Don't have skin in the game? Dude, news at eleven, you're in EU and NATO...
If you want to have no skin in the game, leave those. But i guess the majority don't want that either.
So you can think about what the hell you want and then make such announcements.
Considering what are the options "opposed to the globalist hegemonic Axis of NATO", i'd rather stick to the latter.
TheRejectionist
TheRejectionist
I detest both and hopefully one day we will not be. If given the chance (but Washington D.C. will make sure we don't) you will see Italy and probably the whole of the Mediterranean leave NATO.
Does he look he could make a joke since he is behaving like Marc Pasquin?
Be careful what you wish for, because you might get it. It would come with no more free trade with Europe in a package. Might wanna think again about that one. Of all places, D.C doesn't care about you nearly as much as you may think. Berlin naturally cares more, and they have their doubts too.
TheRejectionist
TheRejectionist
Does Italy look it benefited from FREE TRADE ? Because I haven't seen the benefits...in Italy. Only in the pockets of Paris and Berlin's elite and then lastly Rome.
I am pretty sure it has benefitted, the computer you are furiously banging it is an example of one benefit. Also, don't forget that without the EU you wouldn't be able to monopolize certain traditional Italian products.
TheRejectionist
TheRejectionist
You mean the Samsung who hasn't been made in Europe ?
You mean the same products that have been declared unhealthy by EU commissions?
One benefit. For corpos.
Not for the working class.
And I am sure not gonna trade those for national sovereignity or have trans degenerates or pedos teach at kindergartens.
Italy is still pro-Ukraine:
Meloni tells NATO it can count on Italy in Ukraine
ROME (AP) — Italian Premier Giorgia Meloni pledged Italy’s “strong commitment” to NATO and efforts to end Russia's invasion of Ukraine, taking a firm pro-alliance stance Thursday following the pro-Russia sentiments expressed by one of her governing coalition partners.
apnews.com
I am talking about the products that you are given PDOs for, not the unholy biohazards (which probably should be banned despite be unholy crimes against the natural world). And, yes, I mean the relatively cheap electronic device that you probably wouldn't be able to get without some form of trade, and wouldn't be able to get cheaply without some form of reciporical trade.
And free trade shouldn't benefit the corpos, at is purest form- it should benefit all peoples and nations. It just has been hijacked into a vehicle for the profit for a few. And you shouldn't have to trade, it should be about nations trading one product they can do well, for another product another nation can do well...and so on and so forth.