Armchair General's DonbAss Derailed Discussion Thread (Topics Include History, Traps, and the Ongoing Slavic Civil War plus much much more)

[Batrix2070]

Does Italy look it benefited from FREE TRADE ? Because I haven't seen the benefits...in Italy. Only in the pockets of Paris and Berlin's elite and then lastly Rome.

It was the Euro that led Italy to disaster, not the European Economic Zone. Until no one came up with this abortive idea of creating a single currency and forcibly pegging the exchange rate , Italy grew at the same rate as Germany and even kept the momentum when Germany slowed down.
And now you have the Euro and guess who benefited the most from it? Germany.
Which suddenly got momentum but Italy by some miracle no longer. Berlin is parasitic on you as all of Europe thanks to the Euro. If anyone needs to be rubbed in the nose, it's Berlin and that can be done by kicking their idea of trade with Russia/China.
But to find out, you have to look at the statistics and check some dates. It's easy to see that Italy has had a growth problem since the stiffening of the Lira and then the adoption of the Euro. And Russia can be easily kicked through Ukraine, you don't even have to give them weapons, just give them ammunition for it. Or other necessary bullshit for functioning in a war.

Edit PS. You kick Germany you also kick those big corpo's that keep Italian politicians in their pockets. If you want to seriously become free then you first have to bring the world to a catastrophe and Russia's smashing into a stupid snout can become the beginning of such an uncontrollable catastrophe. The corpo should be encouraged to overreact.

 

[WolfBear]

It was the Euro that led Italy to disaster, not the European Economic Zone. Until no one came up with this abortive idea of creating a single currency and forcibly pegging the exchange rate , Italy grew at the same rate as Germany and even kept the momentum when Germany slowed down.
And now you have the Euro and guess who benefited the most from it? Germany.
Which suddenly got momentum but Italy by some miracle no longer. Berlin is parasitic on you as all of Europe thanks to the Euro. If anyone needs to be rubbed in the nose, it's Berlin and that can be done by kicking their idea of trade with Russia/China. And Russia can be easily kicked through Ukraine, you don't even have to give them weapons, just give them ammunition for it. Or other necessary bullshit for functioning in a war.

One thing worth noting is that Italy also has somewhat lower human capital than Germany has, on average. Just compare their PISA exam scores:

Programme for International Student Assessment - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Batrix2070]

One thing worth noting is that Italy also has somewhat lower human capital than Germany has, on average. Just compare their PISA exam scores:

And Poland is higher in all categories than Germany but we are still not richer than them. It's rather cool to look at the potential than to use it. I wouldn't worry about such tests until the end.

 

[WolfBear]

And Poland is higher in all categories than Germany but we are still not richer than them. It's rather cool to look at the potential than to use it. I wouldn't worry about such tests until the end.

Poland suffered from decades of Communist rule whereas only 1/4 of Germany did. That explains it. Give Poland another several decades. It should catch up to Germany by then, barring some unexpected developments.

Communism has caused countries to perform worse economically than they would otherwise have based on their human capital levels.

 

[Marduk]

Does Italy look it benefited from FREE TRADE ? Because I haven't seen the benefits...in Italy. Only in the pockets of Paris and Berlin's elite and then lastly Rome.

It's easy to not see what you take for granted.
So, which country that doesn't have FREE TRADE has a working class whose fate are you jealous of?
Belarus? Perhaps India? Or maybe Turkmenistan?

 

[Batrix2070]

Poland suffered from decades of Communist rule whereas only 1/4 of Germany did. That explains it. Give Poland another several decades. It should catch up to Germany by then, barring some unexpected developments.

This is more due to the fact that much of our industry was turned into ruins and many of the professionals trained during the Second Republic were murdered by the Germans (fortunately, the Italians happened to protect some of them for us), others as the Polish elite took part in the battles leading the nation into battle, others were murdered by the Soviets and the last significant group simply stayed in exile after the war assisting the development of Western countries.
So in fact, we had to start over again when the Germans did not suffer such a percentage loss of their elite and most of their industrial base was fit for action on the march.

Communism has caused countries to perform worse economically than they would otherwise have based on their human capital levels.

Very, it stifled our development considerably and despite this stifling, the People's Republic of Poland developed quite rapidly for an inefficient system. From 1945 to 1955 our entire GDP doubled. Until I wonder what it would have looked like without communism and its inefficiencies. How many times would we have jumped up.

 

[WolfBear]

This is more due to the fact that much of our industry was turned into ruins and many of the professionals trained during the Second Republic were murdered by the Germans (fortunately, the Italians happened to protect some of them for us), others as the Polish elite took part in the battles leading the nation into battle, others were murdered by the Soviets and the last significant group simply stayed in exile after the war assisting the development of Western countries.
So in fact, we had to start over again when the Germans did not suffer such a percentage loss of their elite and most of their industrial base was fit for action on the march.

I'm skeptical that the German mass killings of Poles during WWII had much of an effect on the Polish average IQ due to regression towards the mean and also because even with non-Jewish Polish men, didn't almost 90% of them survive World War II? Those kinds of losses generally aren't enough to have a significant effect on the average.

FWIW, even the Khmer Rouge mass murders which murdered a quarter of Cambodia's population, while being vile, evil, inexcusable, atrocious, and a crime against humanity, probably didn't have a significant effect on Cambodia's average IQ either:

Quantifying the Communist Cullings

Surviving political repressions in Communist regimes is one of those rare problems that don\'t seem to be at all g loaded. When someone like spandrell talks of \

www.unz.com

 

[Batrix2070]

I'm skeptical that the German mass killings of Poles during WWII had much of an effect on the Polish average IQ due to regression towards the mean and also because even with non-Jewish Polish men, didn't almost 90% of them survive World War II? Those kinds of losses generally aren't enough to have a significant effect on the average.

The problem is not that IQ has fallen, but that with the extermination a chunk of knowledge and the quality of the elite has been lost. Our current ones are a damn joke, we are developing in spite of our elites and not because of them. While in the Second Republic they were the ones pushing the cart forward.
IQ is not everything, there are some unmeasurable but perceptible elements that indicate the quality of a country, if we had the elites of the Second Republic and their level but the current development capabilities, I am absolutely sure that our current development would be twice as great as it is and Poland as a country would work much better in certain areas.

Hence I say, all these tests measure only potential and not how someone uses it, because we don't use much of our potential because those who should be able to do it are mostly parasites.
edit.
The average member of the so-called nomenklatura (this was the name given to members of the elite during the communist era) is in fact some chump from the most sunken hole and who got there because he was a collaborator or a sprymitized member of the former elite. Most of this former "elite" has outgrown the current "enlightened" elite, and just as they used to pound their foreheads against the Soviets, so today they pound their foreheads against the Europeans. The whole heap is much more of a nuisance to Poland than a help because their only skill in life is to have the right connections and the ability to use them than to have any competence. Fortunately, this is slowly changing as the old "elites" die out or are replaced by new ones.
Everything you hear bad about Poland is just the whimpering of a spurned elite who are outraged that ordinary Poles have the gall to ignore their recommendations and prefer a different path. The Polish way.

 

[King Arts]

Yes he is literally Hitler 2.0. He even used Hitler's talking points.



And you Italians have some nerve to not stand vigorously against what Putin is doing considering what y'all go up to in the 20th Century.



Y'all are lucky we let you remain a country after WW2. Maybe doing so was a mistake. Maybe the Allies should have carved Italy up and made it a protectorate of various Allied Nations. Because your tendency to sympathize with a Dictator is troublesome.

So pot calling kettle black. You bitch about Russia conquering Ukraine and trying to force it to do what it wants then turn around and say that the Anglos and Americans should have conquered all of Europe. America ain’t any more moral than Russia or China.

 

[LordsFire]

So pot calling kettle black. You bitch about Russia conquering Ukraine and trying to force it to do what it wants then turn around and say that the Anglos and Americans should have conquered all of Europe. America ain’t any more moral than Russia or China.

Please explain to me how conquering nations that started a war against you and your allies, then dictating terms by which they reform after the war ends, is morally equivalent to genocide, slaughtering and starving tens of millions, and enslaving hundreds of millions of people under communism.

I'd really like to know.

 

[WolfBear]

The problem is not that IQ has fallen, but that with the extermination a chunk of knowledge and the quality of the elite has been lost. Our current ones are a damn joke, we are developing in spite of our elites and not because of them. While in the Second Republic they were the ones pushing the cart forward.
IQ is not everything, there are some unmeasurable but perceptible elements that indicate the quality of a country, if we had the elites of the Second Republic and their level but the current development capabilities, I am absolutely sure that our current development would be twice as great as it is and Poland as a country would work much better in certain areas.

Hence I say, all these tests measure only potential and not how someone uses it, because we don't use much of our potential because those who should be able to do it are mostly parasites.

Fair point about Poland's elites. Breeding new elites takes time, no doubt. And it also doesn't help that the Jews who could have become a part of Poland's elite either got murdered en masse or subsequently emigrated. Though having a large Jewish elite is not necessarily in a country's best interests if this Jewish elite will be pushing large-scale non-elite Muslim and African immigration into your country. And I say this as a Jew myself. But if this large Jewish elite will be more pragmatic and rational, then it will be good. So, no pushing leftism or free speech denial or any of that crap.

 

[WolfBear]

So pot calling kettle black. You bitch about Russia conquering Ukraine and trying to force it to do what it wants then turn around and say that the Anglos and Americans should have conquered all of Europe. America ain’t any more moral than Russia or China.

Anglos and Americans didn't want to outright annex Europe. Rather, they wanted to reform Europe in a more pro-Western and pro-democratic direction. What exactly is so wrong with that, other than the Wokeness/leftism?

 

[Urabrask Revealed]

So, no pushing leftism or free speech denial or any of that crap.

You want a centaur to go with that unicorn?

 

[WolfBear]

You want a centaur to go with that unicorn?

Hey, some leftists are pretty rational, such as Sam Harris.

 

[Sailor.X]

So pot calling kettle black. You bitch about Russia conquering Ukraine and trying to force it to do what it wants then turn around and say that the Anglos and Americans should have conquered all of Europe. America ain’t any more moral than Russia or China.

The Allies did not try to commit genocide on a mass scale against ethnic people. The Axis powers did.

 

[LordsFire]

Hey, some leftists are pretty rational, such as Sam Harris.

Mister 'I'm okay with the media lying to people to keep Trump out of office'?

 

[King Arts]

Please explain to me how conquering nations that started a war against you and your allies, then dictating terms by which they reform after the war ends, is morally equivalent to genocide, slaughtering and starving tens of millions, and enslaving hundreds of millions of people under communism.

I'd really like to know.

Because you are denying those people their national self determination. Sailor X said we should have broken Italy apart into small statelets and not let them get back together. Doing that would require enslaving the people there just like modern Russia is trying to do with Ukraine. Also why are you bringing up communism you boomer? Modern Russia if it conqurerd Ukraine would not impose communism lol. It's no diffrent than previous empires taking over land.

Anglos and Americans didn't want to outright annex Europe. Rather, they wanted to reform Europe in a more pro-Western and pro-democratic direction. What exactly is so wrong with that, other than the Wokeness/leftism?

I'm not talking about reality, I'm responding to Sailor X's post.

The Allies did not try to commit genocide on a mass scale against ethnic people. The Axis powers did.

Umm? The allied powers did do genocides though. Historically they did do genocides. They also did quite a few atrocities at the same time the Axis were doing their thing. Do you want to narrow this down to just the Italians? Who probably did less atrocities than the British?
Also your post itself advocated doing genocide on Italy. Unless you don't think modern Russia annexing Ukraine is genocide? Breaking up a nation is just as much a genocide as incorporating it into yourself even if you gain more benefit from incorporation.

 

[Sailor.X]

Because you are denying those people their national self determination. Sailor X said we should have broken Italy apart into small statelets and not let them get back together. Doing that would require enslaving the people there just like modern Russia is trying to do with Ukraine. Also why are you bringing up communism you boomer? Modern Russia if it conqurerd Ukraine would not impose communism lol. It's no diffrent than previous empires taking over land.


I'm not talking about reality, I'm responding to Sailor X's post.


Umm? The allied powers did do genocides though. Historically they did do genocides. They also did quite a few atrocities at the same time the Axis were doing their thing. Do you want to narrow this down to just the Italians? Who probably did less atrocities than the British?
Also your post itself advocated doing genocide on Italy. Unless you don't think modern Russia annexing Ukraine is genocide? Breaking up a nation is just as much a genocide as incorporating it into yourself even if you gain more benefit from incorporation.

I did not advocate for the genocide of Italians. I stated that them remaining a sovereign nation after what they did in WW2 probably was a mistake. And a I stand by that statement. The Same with Germany. As to the Allies committing more genocide than the Axis. After that anything else you post I am not gonna even take seriously. You have lost the plot.

 

[King Arts]

I did not advocate for the genocide of Italians. I stated that them remaining a sovereign nation after what they did in WW2 probably was a mistake. And a I stand by that statement. The Same with Germany. As to the Allies committing more genocide than the Axis. After that anything else you post I am not gonna even take seriously. You have lost the plot.

How is that diffrent than what Putin wants? He isn't going to hunt down and kill every Ukrainian down to the child in the crib. He is just going to end the nation state of Ukraine.
And you should learn how to read english. I said the British did more genocide than the ITALIANS. Italy did bad things to Ethiopia yes. But the British and other colonial powers did similar things in Africa, so don't act self righteous you are just sucking up what ever education system taught you.

Bengal famine of 1943 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Marduk]

How is that diffrent than what Putin wants? He isn't going to hunt down and kill every Ukrainian down to the child in the crib. He is just going to end the nation state of Ukraine.

"China is technically not genociding Uyghurs" kind of argument.
Sure, the technical term is cultural genocide.

But the British and other colonial powers did similar things in Africa, so don't act self righteous you are just sucking up what ever education system taught you.

Bengal famine of 1943 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

>worse
>points at mismanagement and resource shortages in the middle of freaking WW2

Breaking up a nation is just as much a genocide as incorporating it into yourself even if you gain more benefit from incorporation.

You are being ridiculous. Germany was genocided after WW2? China was genocided after WW2? Korea was genocided?