Armchair General's DonbAss Derailed Discussion Thread (Topics Include History, Traps, and the Ongoing Slavic Civil War plus much much more)

strunkenwhite said:
Seems kind of silly to say that withdrawing military aid would have no impact on whether Ukraine wins a war.
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There will be others who will provide equipment (like there has been since the start), the only one who wants it is our Defence Minister Perché Guido Crosetto è stato accusato di conflitto di interessi who also has a very likely conflict of interest. Italy has no fucking moral or ethical obligation towards helping Zelensky or his allies and since many refugees are already here from Ukraine, I think we already helped him enough, especially after getting so many military freebies. Or helping expand American influence for that matter.
Ukraine will not win or loose this war if Italy and others withdraws help.
The only one who has skin in the game is the Italian Defence Minister, because he will loose his precious lobbyists'money because we are not sending more freebies.
 
Sailor.X said:
Funny how Germany, Hungary and Italy. All former Axis powers. Don't want to assist a country defending itself from Hitler 2.0. History does not repeat but it sure does rhyme.
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It is not the same.
Germans are now kgbstan allies,just like they always were.That is why Scholtz go to China - taking about help for their friend putin.
But Hungary simply do not need help Ukraine,becouse Moscov would invade Poland,not them,if they take Kiev.
Italy is the same - they would be safe even id both Ukraine and Poland fall.
But - they are not Moscov allies,like Germany.

@WolfBear ,after 1945 till 1956 Poland was soviet colony ruled by very intelligient jews.It do not worked well for us.
Fun thing - their descendents keep accusing us of being antisemites.
 
ATP said:
It is not the same.
Germans are now kgbstan allies,just like they always were.That is why Scholtz go to China - taking about help for their friend putin.
But Hungary simply do not need help Ukraine,becouse Moscov would invade Poland,not them,if they take Kiev.
Italy is the same - they would be safe even id both Ukraine and Poland fall.
But - they are not Moscov allies,like Germany.

@WolfBear ,after 1945 till 1956 Poland was soviet colony ruled by very intelligient jews.It do not worked well for us.
Fun thing - their descendents keep accusing us of being antisemites.
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You mean the grandkids or grand-grandkids of people like Salomon Morel are complaining that Poles don't like them, despite there is an actual valid reason for Poles to be angry? Well, if that is not being an ungrateful bunch of whiny cunts I don't what it is.

Hopefully, as I have seen in the past, Poland's people and government reply in the same tone.
 
TheRejectionist said:
You mean the grandkids or grand-grandkids of people like Salomon Morel are complaining that Poles don't like them, despite there is an actual valid reason for Poles to be angry? Well, if that is not being an ungrateful bunch of whiny cunts I don't what it is.

Hopefully, as I have seen in the past, Poland's people and government reply in the same tone.
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Fat chance.Our leaders are neo-Sanacja and socialists,which mean that they are pro-jewish.

When jews forbid them from making exhumation in Jedwabne when we found schells from german rifles there,they still do not made that.And we are accused for another german crime as a result.
 
TheRejectionist said:
There will be others who will provide equipment (like there has been since the start), the only one who wants it is our Defence Minister Perché Guido Crosetto è stato accusato di conflitto di interessi who also has a very likely conflict of interest. Italy has no fucking moral or ethical obligation towards helping Zelensky or his allies and since many refugees are already here from Ukraine, I think we already helped him enough, especially after getting so many military freebies. Or helping expand American influence for that matter.
Ukraine will not win or loose this war if Italy and others withdraws help.
The only one who has skin in the game is the Italian Defence Minister, because he will loose his precious lobbyists'money because we are not sending more freebies.
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I don't know what moral or ethical frame you are using here to say that, but i don't care as it sounds like shit.
However, Italy does have a political obligation of sorts aswell, as it's the same thing most of its allies in EU and NATO are doing, and its for some of said allies' own interests in containing Russian expansionism, not just Ukraine's.
 
TheRejectionist said:
I should have expanded on the post you quoted : Ukranian victory or defeat will not be determined by how many countries supply it for free with fancy toys.
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You really are determined to resist learning how warfare actually works, aren't you?

At the least, you could avoid making statements this sweeping and broad, so ambiguous that they could mean almost anything.
 
Big Article on the Initial Battle of Hostomel Airport and the Opening Moves that took place both in Chernobyl and the area and suburbs Northwest of Kyiv.

It was actually a pretty good and interesting read with lots of pictures as well.

teletype.in

The Only Easy Day Was Yesterday. Hostomel. Special Unit "Omega"

Interview with a serviceman of the National Guard of Ukraine was conducted for National Information Portal “Tysk” by Serhiy Haraluzhiy...
teletype.in teletype.in
 
Marduk said:
I don't know what moral or ethical frame you are using here to say that, but i don't care as it sounds like shit.
However, Italy does have a political obligation of sorts aswell, as it's the same thing most of its allies in EU and NATO are doing, and its for some of said allies' own interests in containing Russian expansionism, not just Ukraine's.
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Their interest are not mine and no, we don't even have any political obligation since none got attacked so far. Even they were or will be, I will prioritize my country' safety over yours. Hopefully we can at least attempt to give NATO and the EU the same treatment we gave the Germans 79 years ago.

If they want to die to stop Russia (or attempt to) the Eastern European nations like Poland and the Baltic can be my guests to do so, but ethically and morally we don't have any obligation to end up in a radioactive grave like you.

If you wish to turn Poland into a nuclear wasteland, go ahead. Sure as I hell don't and hopefully will not follow suit.
 
TheRejectionist said:
Even they were or will be, I will prioritize my country' safety over yours.
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See, what you're willfully ignoring here, is that supporting Ukraine does enhance your country's safety. It's not even like the cost is that steep; there are no other meaningful military threats on Italy's horizon, so keeping Russia from becoming one is very much money well spent.

And given they're getting their asses kicked, it's not like you have much reason to worry about an ascendant Russia coming around to punish you for supporting their enemies after the war is over.
 
TheRejectionist said:
Their interest are not mine and no, we don't even have any political obligation since none got attacked so far. Even they were or will be, I will prioritize my country' safety over yours. Hopefully we can at least attempt to give NATO and the EU the same treatment we gave the Germans 79 years ago.

If they want to die to stop Russia (or attempt to) the Eastern European nations like Poland and the Baltic can be my guests to do so, but ethically and morally we don't have any obligation to end up in a radioactive grave like you.

If you wish to turn Poland into a nuclear wasteland, go ahead. Sure as I hell don't and hopefully will not follow suit.
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Your country will even if you pull out of NATO. Russia taking everyone down
 
TheRejectionist said:
Their interest are not mine and no, we don't even have any political obligation since none got attacked so far. Even they were or will be, I will prioritize my country' safety over yours. Hopefully we can at least attempt to give NATO and the EU the same treatment we gave the Germans 79 years ago.

If they want to die to stop Russia (or attempt to) the Eastern European nations like Poland and the Baltic can be my guests to do so, but ethically and morally we don't have any obligation to end up in a radioactive grave like you.

If you wish to turn Poland into a nuclear wasteland, go ahead. Sure as I hell don't and hopefully will not follow suit.
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Oh for crying out loud learn from History. It is the mentality of people like you that allowed WW2 to happen in the first place. When your enemy is destroying itself. You don't allow them to get a reprieve. And Russia is systematically destroying it's conventional power by yeeting itself in Ukraine. A defeat of Russia in Ukraine means Russian land forces will no longer be able to threaten Europe as a whole. Russia will not be able to invade Europe for many many decades if ever. How is this so hard for you to grasp.
 
Zachowon said:
Your country will even if you pull out of NATO. Russia taking everyone down
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Umm while the Russians are dumb, I don't know if they are that dumb. The smart thing for them if they were going to fall is to launch all nukes at America and maybe England. That way they guarantee that their enemey goes and becomes Africa tier like them. If they spread it out and hit neutrals like China, Japan, Italy, Brazil, India, etc. Then they won't have enough to cause anyone to collapse, and all they did is piss off everyone, while the US destroyed them. The survivors would be hated for generations to come. They'd have it worse than the Jews had it the past 2000 years. Thats why if you are going to launch the thing to do is to focus, not hit 3rd parties to "prevent someone else from becoming the new world power in the aftermath." If you are launching you need to accept that you and your enemy will be destroyed, and hope that whoever the 3rd party that takes over in the end will be kind and supply humanitarian relief to your survivors.

Though Russia has been acting stupid in this war, so maybe.
 
King Arts said:
Though Russia has been acting stupid in this war, so maybe.
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If That Scene From Wargames happens... it happens... whatever nation states possibly rise from the aftermath will all have their own gripes and hatreds. Northern hemisphere is fked by nuclear fallout / winter and then the Southern hemisphere is fked because all the tech and industry is in the north and outside of any cities directly destroyed all those countries suddenly have a population many times their agricultural carrying capacity.
 
Sailor.X said:
Oh for crying out loud learn from History. It is the mentality of people like you that allowed WW2 to happen in the first place. When your enemy is destroying itself. You don't allow them to get a reprieve. And Russia is systematically destroying it's conventional power by yeeting itself in Ukraine. A defeat of Russia in Ukraine means Russian land forces will no longer be able to threaten Europe as a whole. Russia will not be able to invade Europe for many many decades if ever. How is this so hard for you to grasp.
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You seem to think that Russia is my enemy. I never considered them that and probably never will, unlike the States.
 
TheRejectionist said:
Their interest are not mine and no, we don't even have any political obligation since none got attacked so far.
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And if Russian military gets broken hard enough in Ukraine, the deal of the century is that no one will be for the foreseeable future, so you won't have to actually do anything. Unless you are waiting to have to do something, which is stupid. Or you are waiting for an opportunity to do something and refuse to.
TheRejectionist said:
Even they were or will be, I will prioritize my country' safety over yours. Hopefully we can at least attempt to give NATO and the EU the same treatment we gave the Germans 79 years ago.
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Your country's imagined, ideologically tinted fiction of safety over real one you mean.
Guess it was a long time since Italy got occupied by any actual barbarians.
TheRejectionist said:
If they want to die to stop Russia (or attempt to) the Eastern European nations like Poland and the Baltic can be my guests to do so, but ethically and morally we don't have any obligation to end up in a radioactive grave like you.
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Thanks much bro.
Because right now you are basically wishing you would end up in some sort of a Melian Dialogue style situation so that you can whine about being oppressed for real. Fortunately your politicians aren't so crazy.
For more realistic example what your policies would result in, look at the current situation of Serbia and Transnistria.
TheRejectionist said:
If you wish to turn Poland into a nuclear wasteland, go ahead. Sure as I hell don't and hopefully will not follow suit.
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If you volunteer for slavery over a threat of nuclear war, you will be slaves to the nearest nuclear power with ambitions for power. Lucky for you, you don't neighbor any right now. But that won't last forever.
Cowards die many times.
Fortunately for us, Muscovite leaders are in it for themselves, and they also don't want to live in the very same nuclear apocalypse they are threatening to start. They just hope idiots and cowards on the other side give them everything they want over the threat alone, threat which costs them absolutely nothing. Everything they want for free? That's one hell of a deal. Luckily even our idiot politicians are too cunning to fall for such a deal, it's just you...
 
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