Russia-Ukraine War Political Discussion

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Terthna said:
And do what, exactly; invade Russia?
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No, but we can destroy their air force and fleet in the Black Sea area.

Non-nuclear response that never-the-less would severely punish Russia.

Only 'invasion' that may happen is Japan deciding to retake the Kuril's, which Russia has illegally occupied since the end of WW2.
Abhorsen said:
No, they don't, or they would have invaded the Baltic states already.

Letting them in obligates us to go to war with Russia immediately. Send our troops in to fight Russian troops. It's a horrible idea that ends with nukes. You got a bunker?
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We wouldn't need to send many troops, Poland and the Baltic's are itching to push the Article 5 button, and most US force would be directed at the Russian air force and Black Sea fleet.

Also, I am reading maps of likely nuke targets, fallout plume areas, and water drainage's; I'd recommend most people here do the same. You don't need a bunker or vault to survive nuclear war, you just need to not be near a target when things go down and have supplies/plans to get away from/shelter from fallout plumes/blast waves.

You also forget Russia already considers this a 'war with NATO', and are undertaking these farces of a referendums/annexations; there is no 'off-ramp' to this conflict so long as Putin is in power in Russia and remains dead set on trying to keep his acquired lands. So best to start either figuring out how to possibly survive a nuclear conflict, or just get ready to die and quit bitching at those who are at least trying to figure out how to survive.
 
Bacle said:
Also, I am reading maps of likely nuke targets, fallout plume areas, and water drainage's; I'd recommend most people here do the same. You don't need a bunker or vault to survive nuclear war, you just need to not be near a target when things go down and have supplies/plans to get away from/shelter from fallout plumes/blast waves.
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Plus, you know; figure how to survive without stores, hospitals, or public infrastructure of any kind.

Bacle said:
You also forget Russia already considers this a 'war with NATO', and are undertaking these farces of a referendums/annexations; there is no 'off-ramp' to this conflict so long as Putin is in power in Russia and remains dead set on trying to keep his acquired lands. So best to start either figuring out how to possibly survive a nuclear conflict, or just get ready to die and quit bitching at those who are at least trying to figure out how to survive.
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Getting rid of Putin won't stop the conflict; he's just a symptom of how we've treated Russia since the "end" of the Cold War. Taking him out would merely turn him into a martyr.
 
Terthna said:
he's just a symptom of how we've treated Russia since the "end" of the Cold War. Taking him out would merely turn him into a martyr.
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What's up with this self-centered, ironically, in this context often by people who are regularly complaining about westerners being self-centered?
Imagine thinking everything Russian government does is just done mainly with past treatment by America in mind.
No, it's not about you. It's about them, their history, their ambitions, and how they see their rightful place in the world.
 
Terthna said:
Plus, you know; figure how to survive without stores, hospitals, or public infrastructure of any kind.
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Camping solar panels, a hunting bow, a water purifier, a geiger counter, and a old-fashioned radios can do you well if you get away from the main targets and fallout plumes.

Plus, basic backcountry medical and dietary knowledge can go a long ways. And it won't be all our infrastructure gone, because it's too dispursed and Russia is lucky if even 1/3rd of it's nukes will even work. They do not have the raw warhead numbers to glass the US anymore, and our ABM stuff (GBI interceptors, SM-6 missiles on Burkes) will mean that the blow will be blunted. Plus whatever classified ABM goodies we have.

It is also unlikely Russia would get much of a second strike off, never mind a third strike, so unless you are right in the middle of first-strike targets there is a decent chance to survive the exchanges. The US doesn't have a 'no first use policy'; if it looks like Russia is about to go for mass launch, we are likely to hit them first and minimize how many warheads they get off at all.
Terthna said:
Getting rid of Putin won't stop the conflict; he's just a symptom of how we've treated Russia since the "end" of the Cold War. Taking him out would merely turn him into a martyr.
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No, Zelensky has said plain as day there will be no further negotiations with Putin, but that negotiations with a new Russian president are possible.

The goal is to get Putin removed internally by the public he betrayed and mislead, not kill him ourselves.
 
Terthna said:
Getting rid of Putin won't stop the conflict; he's just a symptom of how we've treated Russia since the "end" of the Cold War. Taking him out would merely turn him into a martyr.
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I expected better than effing victim blaming from you.

Russia has been the aggressor in every single military conflict it has been involved with since the break-up of the USSR.

They have been bullying and berating neighbor nations into functioning as vassal states, they've treated their own citizens like shit, they're insanely corrupt, and now they're threatening nuclear temper-tantrums because their own military is too weak to be as much of a bully as they want.

NATO has never demanded Russia hand over territory under threat of military force, nor has it threatened nukes if Russia doesn't get out of another nation where NATO or a NATO ally were trying to annex territory. There is absolutely nothing that NATO or the West has done that justifies Russia's incredibly evil actions.

Russia's aggression is nobody's fault but their own.
 
Marduk said:
What's up with this self-centered, ironically, in this context often by people who are regularly complaining about westerners being self-centered?
Imagine thinking everything Russian government does is just done mainly with past treatment by America in mind.
No, it's not about you. It's about them, their history, their ambitions, and how they see their rightful place in the world.
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We're the guys they're trying to shore up their defenses against. If we had established a peaceful relationship with Russia after the Cold War, instead of continuing to antagonize and threaten them, the need to expand or die wouldn't have been allowed to fester and grow to the point of causing the situation we're all in right now.



Bacle said:
Camping solar panels, a hunting bow, a water purifier, a geiger counter, and a old-fashioned radios can do you well if you get away from the main targets and fallout plumes.

Plus, basic backcountry medical and dietary knowledge can go a long ways. And it won't be all our infrastructure gone, because it's too dispursed and Russia is lucky if even 1/3rd of it's nukes will even work. They do not have the raw warhead numbers to glass the US anymore, and our ABM stuff (GBI interceptors, SM-6 missiles on Burkes) will mean that the blow will be blunted. Plus whatever classified ABM goodies we have.

It is also unlikely Russia would get much of a second strike off, never mind a third strike, so unless you are right in the middle of first-strike targets there is a decent chance to survive the exchanges. The US doesn't have a 'no first use policy'; if it looks like Russia is about to go for mass launch, we are likely to hit them first and minimize how many warheads they get off at all.
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Fair enough; I just think you're underestimating the hardships you'd suffer, and overestimating your own ability to prepare for them. Not to mention coming across like a total jackass towards those who'd rather not deal with that situation in the first place.

Bacle said:
No, Zelensky has said plain as day there will be no further negotiations with Putin, but that negotiations with a new Russian president are possible.

The goal is to get Putin removed internally by the public he betrayed and mislead, not kill him ourselves.
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That will never happen; the best you can hope for is that someone who thinks that Putin was too soft with Russia's enemies takes over.
 
Terthna said:
We're the guys they're trying to shore up their defenses against. If we had established a peaceful relationship with Russia after the Cold War, instead of continuing to antagonize and threaten them, the need to expand or die wouldn't have been allowed to fester and grow to the point of causing the situation we're all in right now.
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That excuse doesn't justify using Chernobyl as an armor corridor and littering it with UXOs, it does not justify the mass kidnapping of Ukrainian children, it does not justify their pet rebels shooting down that airliner, and it does not justify using a nuclear plant as an artillery base.


Terthna said:
Fair enough; I just think you're underestimating the hardships you'd suffer, and overestimating your own ability to prepare for them. Not to mention coming across like a total jackass towards those who'd rather not deal with that situation in the first place.
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I'd rather not have to deal with it too, but I am dealing with the world and political/military situation as is, not as I wish it was.

Rads don't give a fuck about your politics, but they can be unleashed by politics, and by stupidity/selfishness. Putin is terminally ill, irrational/glory seeking, even Kazakhstan has turned on Russia and welcomed those fleeing conscription, and the CCP have forced Russia to pulled out of the joint Moon-base project they had been planning, looking for 'new partners'.

And why would you begrudge people understanding the realistic survival chances and methods, if they are relatively straightforawrd to acquire from local shops with a little planning and research? Don't get angry at people for not wanting to roll over and die, if they have the chance to survive; the fact is Putin is the one engaged in nuclear terrorism in multiple regards, and he is unstable enough that he may very well decide to roll the dice.

I pray he doesn't, but I feel it prudent to have some sort of basic planning and supplies if the world gets even more stupid on us.
Terthna said:
That will never happen; the best you can hope for is that someone who thinks that Putin was too soft with Russia's enemies takes over.
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Depends on how it happens.

If the Russian POWs who return home remember the West more favorably than Moscow, we may be able to root the commies out of their 'homeland' and remove the madness at the source.
 
Terthna said:
We're the guys they're trying to shore up their defenses against. If we had established a peaceful relationship with Russia after the Cold War, instead of continuing to antagonize and threaten them,
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Defenses?
Funny how they feel free to claim parts of other sovereign, globally recognized countries as their own, to then proceed to "defend" it, while thinning out the defenses on their actual, supposedly super scary NATO border.
foreignpolicy.com

Russia’s Stripped Its Western Borders to Feed the Fight in Ukraine

But Finland and the Baltic states are still leery of Moscow’s long-term designs.
foreignpolicy.com foreignpolicy.com
Obviously they aren't acting like they are afraid of NATO and bunkering down. They are in fact acting as if they thought the west gutless and non-threatening gentle giant who grumbles a lot but never does anything, and so they will not let the stupid doormat giant's impotent grumblings stop them from grabbing the grand empire they feel entitled to.

If they were afraid of a surprise attack by NATO, that would be the last thing they would do, and if they were right to be afraid, then they have arranged the best moment in decades for NATO to take the chance if it was ever going to. But they aren't afraid, and they know they would be wrong to be afraid of the mythical NATO aggression, so they act accordingly.
Terthna said:
the need to expand or die wouldn't have been allowed to fester and grow to the point of causing the situation we're all in right now.
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Expand or die? What the hell are you smoking? More like dying to expand. If they weren't in fact expanding, they wouldn't even be under any sanctions now (no Georgia war, no separatists, no Ukraine war).
Terthna said:
That will never happen; the best you can hope for is that someone who thinks that Putin was too soft with Russia's enemies takes over.
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If anyone was too soft, it was Russia's enemies, letting it keep trappings of an empire, in turn giving it undue hope that in time it is allowed to have more than just trappings.
 
Bacle said:
That excuse doesn't justify using Chernobyl as an armor corridor and littering it with UXOs, it does not justify the mass kidnapping of Ukrainian children, it does not justify their pet rebels shooting down that airliner, and it does not justify using a nuclear plant as an artillery base.
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I never said it did; anymore than you yourself said that the Japanese were justified in what they did during World War 2, when you talked about how Japan was stiffed at Versilles in the aftermath of World War 1.

Bacle said:
I'd rather not have to deal with it too, but I am dealing with the world and political/military situation as is, not as I wish it was.

Rads don't give a fuck about your politics, but they can be unleashed by politics, and by stupidity/selfishness. Putin is terminally ill, irrational/glory seeking, even Kazakhstan has turned on Russia and welcomed those fleeing conscription, and the CCP have forced Russia to pulled out of the joint Moon-base project they had been planning, looking for 'new partners'.

And why would you begrudge people understanding the realistic survival chances and methods, if they are relatively straightforawrd to acquire from local shops with a little planning and research? Don't get angry at people for not wanting to roll over and die, if they have the chance to survive; the fact is Putin is the one engaged in nuclear terrorism in multiple regards, and he is unstable enough that he may very well decide to roll the dice.

I pray he doesn't, but I feel it prudent to have some sort of basic planning and supplies if the world gets even more stupid on us.
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I just don't think it's all on Putin whether or not it happens. We don't have to push them to that.

Bacle said:
Depends on how it happens.

If the Russian POWs who return home remember the West more favorably than Moscow, we may be able to root the commies out of their 'homeland' and remove the madness at the source.
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Hopefully it'll help; but the Russians' resentment towards the West runs deep.
 
Abhorsen said:
No, they don't, or they would have invaded the Baltic states already.

Letting them in obligates us to go to war with Russia immediately. Send our troops in to fight Russian troops. It's a horrible idea that ends with nukes. You got a bunker?
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They have literally claimed they are at war with NATO since day one.

And I am in the military, maybe my base is a target maybe not
 
Terthna said:
Hopefully it'll help; but the Russians' resentment towards the West runs deep.
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And yet it has nothing on how deep Russia's neighbor's resentment towards Russia runs.
Russia whines about the West and blames all foreign policy fails on its supposed conspiracies so much because it puts them in a better light than facing the fact that they were shitheels to most of their neighbors for centuries, as recent events demonstrate have zero intent to change, and said neighbors now treat them accordingly (it has to be CIA nazi color revolutions, not anything they did).
 
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Lyman was taken this morning. Almost two thousand soldiers captured by encirclement and hundreds wounded from attempted breakout. Hahahaha! 1 day after Putin declared annexation of the 4 provinces of Ukraine. Lyman an administration center of Donetsk was liberated by Ukraine! I can just see the egg on those Russkie faces now!

Lol. They think everything east of Germany and Northeast of Turkey is Russian. Ha! I think they'll find out what happens when an empire crumbles and loses control of their vassals
 
The Swedish investigators didn't outright state it. But guess whose warships were loitering were at the site of the explosion just a few hours beforehand with transponders off. Guess whose ships were spotted on Swedish defense satellite . . . Russian warships. 😂 😆 😂 😆 😂

Wtf!? This isn't the Cold War. When you turn Transponders off defense satellites turn towards you immediately. Fucking incompetent Soviet era morons.
 
AmosTrask said:
I listened to it on on TVP live. It'll probably be on western media soon.

TVP is Polish State Television and also radio
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Oh yeah they totally have no reason not to be truthful…

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DarthOne said:
Oh yeah they totally have no reason not to be truthful…

eQgyzcOkYIgr.jpeg
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Amigo. I know it's funny. It's also something so idiomatic only a Russian would do it. Russian and Idiomatic are interchangeable in Eastern Europe. Also Madmen. The translated phrase, "Fucking Russians!" Is extremely common. Equivalent to the American "Goddamn Hillbillies!" Or "Only in Alabama!"

They weren't undetected. They were tracked all the way even after they turned their transponders off.
 
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