Alternate History World War III: 1988, aka "The War of '88"

Tiamat

I've seen the future...
the Soviet's Vietnam (aka Afghanistan) was winding down by '89 and likely accelerated in this timeline because the situation is worse than the US in Vietnam (at least the US in Vietnam had some control of the rural areas, the USSR literally didn't have any sort of control whatsoever of Afghanistan's rural areas), the First Intifada was not backed by the Soviets for it being a hot mess and the Palestinians being considered uncontrollable (although it didn't stop the USSR's Arab puppets in the area from convincing themselves otherwise), the Iran-Iraq War was more or less a glorified sideshow with an incredibly likely possibility Saudi Arabia pumping oodles of money into Iraq to keep Iran out of the peninsula...

Without giving too much away, the Soviets will indeed be winding down operations in Afghanistan faster than normal in this timeline as there will soon be a more urgent matter to the west and south of that region requiring their attention, "cough". Sadly, much like IRL, Afghanistan will be left a broken mess.
 

Aaron Fox

Well-known member
Without giving too much away, the Soviets will indeed be winding down operations in Afghanistan faster than normal in this timeline as there will soon be a more urgent matter to the west and south of that region requiring their attention, "cough". Sadly, much like IRL, Afghanistan will be left a broken mess.
The thing was, what would become the Northern Alliance would be fighting for their lives soon enough. The various factions of Afghanistan stabbed the nominal leader of the Mujahideen who wanted to make the march towards democracy. We know where that led though...
 

Tiamat

I've seen the future...
Just a minor note as I'm continuing work on the next chapter: Would the Australians and New Zealanders still be going forward with, or possibly accelerating procurement of the Steyr AUG assault rifle to replace their SLR rifles around this time, 1987-1988, or would they consider an alternative, say, M16A2's or a variant thereof as the US is already sending quite a bit of military equipment to the two countries as they're reactivating the ANZAC's?

I don't know if the M16A3 would see fielding this early yet, then again it wouldn't be hard to produce since the biggest difference from the A2 is the full auto setting (as opposed to the three round burst on the A2) and the installation of the Picatinny rail system on the receiver and the furniture, unless the concept is being looked at since the M4 is now entering production in this timeline and this draws the attention of Australia and New Zealand, as their SAS were using the M16 rifles. Thoughts??
 

Lanmandragon

Well-known member
9/10 Chances that Communist Sympathizers or Hippies, Hollywood and Professors still say that The West was in the wrong and try bringing back communism
Seriously doubt it facism is discredited due to being stomped on. Then having thier crimes laid out fir the world to see. What likley happens is Communism after being defeated and thier crimes exposed. Becomes a disped fringe movement like Holocaust denial.
 

CarlManvers2019

Writers Blocked Douchebag
Seriously doubt it facism is discredited due to being stomped on. Then having thier crimes laid out fir the world to see. What likley happens is Communism after being defeated and thier crimes exposed. Becomes a disped fringe movement like Holocaust denial.

I've noted this before, but for the West, I think there are two sorts of socialism

The one in practice and already making some extremely centralized totalitarian economy and with leaders wearing drab worker and military suits

And the Star Trek Hippy free love one with everybody being allies and part of some UN-Expy or having all dissolved

The latter will differentiate itself from the first due to stuff like aesthetics and not really liking the brutal worker & soldier part
 

Tiamat

I've seen the future...
I've noted this before, but for the West, I think there are two sorts of socialism

The one in practice and already making some extremely centralized totalitarian economy and with leaders wearing drab worker and military suits

And the Star Trek Hippy free love one with everybody being allies and part of some UN-Expy or having all dissolved

The latter will differentiate itself from the first due to stuff like aesthetics and not really liking the brutal worker & soldier part


Okay, let me put this particular question to rest. Hollywood is indeed a very powerful voice in the world due to the extent of media influence. That said, Hollywood is going to look really stupid if they are seen in any way to be sympathetic to Communists, especially the Soviet Union.

Let's retrace what's happened so far:

Gorbachev who was celebrated as a reformer by the West has been shot along with his wife, burned to ash and scattered across some unnamed lake. The same more or less has happened to just about everyone that was in the Kremlin that chose to associate with him: Shervernadze, Yeltsin, etc. Soviet reforms are dead, Long Live Socialism! To add further salt to the wound, the Soviets and their more die-hard allies like East Germany, who were sometimes even more red and psycho than the Soviets, have instituted Chinese-style crackdowns involving mass arrests and shootings of other reformers, Egon Krenz among them (though admittedly Krenz was far more of a pragmatist than an actual reformer and wasn't all that well regarded by many East Germans either).

The ones who successfully defected from the Soviet Union and it's sphere of influence, among them real-life KGB personalities like Vasili Mitrohkin and Oleg Kalugin, along with real-life Biopreparat research Kanatzhan Alibekov brought with them a trove of information that blew the lid off some current Soviet operations around this time, including some current KGB operations around the world including within the United States, as well as possible connections to various individuals (and who could those be...?), and most significantly, the revelation of the real-life Biopreparat weapons program.

It cannot be stressed enough just how much of a significant game-changer the revelation of Biopreparat really is. By the revelation of this the Soviets have completely discredited the 1972 Biological Weapons Treaty which was a pretty damn big deal, and this was something ratified by Nixon of all people. It was the same treaty that the Soviets, North Koreans, Chinese and their lackeys including similar minded people like Noam Chomsky (Chomsky has often been fond of claiming the US used biological weapons against Cuba) often accused the US of violating as part of propaganda efforts. The Biological Treaty for all intents and purposes which was seen as a significant step toward creating a "detente" between the global powers is effectively dead in the water at this point. Any credibility the Soviets have had with the West is also now dead at this point. And now, the West has to grapple with the threat of not just a nuclear threat as there are no SALT treaties to speak of, but a very imminent biological weapons threat as well. The Soviets don't really seem such friendly and trustworthy guys after all. Detente, rest in peace.

There is also the whole mess that went down in Mexico. Yes, it was a very stupid move by some personas in Mexico, and the USSR didn't have anything to do with this as they're not that stupid to try such a blatant provocation to set up a Socialist country with Soviet armaments right on America's doorstep, they saw how that went down in October 1962. But the images CNN, NBC, CBS, ABC and BBC blared around the world of warehouse stocked full of Soviet armaments didn't help....yes, they were in fact from Cuba, but then again Cuba's a close ally of the Soviets. The Soviet's bungled operation to try to blow up the warehouses resulting with one Vympel commando captured and several more found dead didn't help matters. Not to mention...the innumerable Americans dead from the border incident and the many more casualties the US military endured with GREEN FOX when they intervened/invaded in Mexico. And yes, Mexico was found to be crawling with Cubans, Libyans, mercenaries hired by Khaddafi and Nicaraguan Sandinistas who were all shooting at the Americans. Let's just say Reagan along with a good chunk of America are seriously pissed off at this point.

The cherry on the whole cake is the current Soviet junta's attitude toward the West, especially the Americans and what statements they've made, basically pushing the Cold War which has gone into a high note by the mid 80's to a level perhaps not seen since it's heyday earlier in the 1950's and 1960's. The Kremlin have basically convinced themselves war is inevitable and while they're not quite saying war is inevitable in the West, the Western governments are now prepping for it in spite of pleas for peace from figures like the Pope.

So, what does this mean for Hollywood? Hollywood will remain Hollywood, liberal and such, but they're not going to start trying to enact the days of Vietnam, at least not now. In fact, with the secrets that got spilled by the Soviet defectors, there's probably at least a few in Hollywood that just got paid visits by the Feds who basically told them they have evidence they were in bed, in some cases literally with Soviet-friendly assets. It would really suck in the current climate if all that came out as a front page story in the Washington Post and New York Times, wouldn't it?
 
D

Deleted member 88

Guest
I imagine the Soviets aim would be to reach the Rhine and secure beneficial peace terms before their economy collapsed.

Once it becomes clear they can't pull that off(well they will make progress but the US won't accept whatever terms the Soviets would offer even if the Soviets were in the superior conventional position, after say a month of fighting). the nukes come out after that.
 

CarlManvers2019

Writers Blocked Douchebag
@Tiamat
I was thinking more along the lines of it being a “future threat” along the lines of them trying something “different” in the future

That said, if Communism eventually becomes as reviled as Nazism, I’m pretty sure many people will shut their mouths and actually feel ashamed for supporting it or believing in Marx
 

gral

Well-known member
Weren't we supplying most of the USSRs grain in the 80s? How does Moscow address a mass famine during a world war? As casualty averse as the US is famine could easily knock the USSR out. Hell it could even spark an internal rebellion the US could use.

Major USSR suppliers of grain were the USA and Argentina, IIRC.
 

gral

Well-known member
So cutting thier food off is easy then.
It the balloon goes up? Yes. I think this would be something done just before war begins(there are some benefits in making the USSR bleed their foreign money reserves). Also, effects would take some time to be noticed, and the USSR had a somewhat high tolerance for hardship(it would be 'business as usual' for them).
 

CarlManvers2019

Writers Blocked Douchebag
It the balloon goes up? Yes. I think this would be something done just before war begins(there are some benefits in making the USSR bleed their foreign money reserves). Also, effects would take some time to be noticed, and the USSR had a somewhat high tolerance for hardship(it would be 'business as usual' for them).

They may decide that actively sacking every settlement they can get their hands on without much intention to even stop to be a “good idea” if only to “take back” all the resources they hoarded and refused to give to them

It’d be like that Star Trek Terran Empire fic wherein the Soviets kept going on about “give aide, show compassion, we fought the Nazis together”

Except less shaming and more outright attacking for it

May as well all be bandits by then, out to coerce or loot the foul capitalists

They will need to avoid using stronger weapons if only to get what resources they can and maybe relieve their guys’ stress on enemy civilians
 

Aaron Fox

Well-known member
Good grief, this is becoming a mix between ZDF's World War 3 Mocumentary and the game World in Conflict.

Seriously, ZDF's World War 3 has the road to war similar to this fic: Gorbachov gets eliminated and his allies within the Publicburo get removed from power... and things get worse from there.
 

Tiamat

I've seen the future...
Good grief, this is becoming a mix between ZDF's World War 3 Mocumentary and the game World in Conflict.

Seriously, ZDF's World War 3 has the road to war similar to this fic: Gorbachov gets eliminated and his allies within the Publicburo get removed from power... and things get worse from there.

My version hopefully will be just as entertaining with a lot more chaos and a far higher body count....
😈😁😂

In all seriousness, If the hardliners had ever wanted an actual coup to succeed like the one they tried in 1991 IRL, they needed to take out Gorbachev earlier before he had instituted more of his reforms and had a chance to consolidate his hold in the Politburo. While KGB head Chebrikov had initially supported Gorbachevs ascendancy as President of the USSR, he quickly grew opposed to his reforms, and there was an apparent nasty rift that developed between the two after the debacle with the Chernobyl disaster and how the KGB had constantly hampered the recovery process. Also note in this timeline the coup took place after the Reykjavik Summit, which while it didn’t initially produce anything, quite a few Soviet hardliners were not at all happy with the budding friendship between Gorbachev and Reagan, who was often derided as a reckless cowboy who indeed treated nuclear weapons in their eyes as six shooters.
 
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Aaron Fox

Well-known member
My version hopefully will be just as entertaining with a lot more chaos and a far higher body count....
😈😁😂

In all seriousness, If the hardliners had ever wanted an actual coup to succeed like the one they tried in 1991 IRL, they needed to take out Gorbachev earlier before he had instituted more of his reforms and had a chance to consolidate his hold in the Politburo. While KGB head Chebrikov had initially supported Gorbachevs ascendancy as leader, he quickly grew opposed to his reforms, and there was an apparent nasty rift that developed between the two after the debacle with the Chernobyl disaster and how the KGB had constantly hampered the recovery process. Also note in this timeline the coup took place after the Reykjavik Summit, which while it didn’t initially produce anything, quite a few Soviet hardliners were not at all happy with the budding friendship between Gorbachev and Reagan, who was often derided as a reckless cowboy who indeed treated nuclear weapons in their eyes as six shooters.
ZDF's WW3 has the nukes fly... it's oddly on Youtube surprisingly enough...
 

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