Alternate History World War III: 1988, aka "The War of '88"

[Tiamat]

Had another "mad scientist" moment, copied this from another discussion thread about M247 York on the war college subforum:


-
So let's say the Sgt. York gets resurrected as discussed. Around this same time the US Army had purchased in modest amounts the Roland SAM system that was jointly developed by the French and Germans. IRL, it was only fielded by the National Guard in limited capacity as due to issues with technology transfer and also a bit of the old "Not Invented Here" rearing it's ugly head. Interestingly enough, also in real life the US Army purchased several lots of the Roland for further eval after the initial failure of the Sgt. York program.

But let's assume with an increase in tensions worldwide, and with the success of Sgt. York, the eggheads get another idea, after looking at the CORAD (Coordinated Roland Air Defense) system that integrates a radar and several Roland launchers and ADA guns. The radar systems used in Sgt. York are modified for use with the American Roland system to allow joint integration into a true gun-and-missile ADA system that can be used not just to protect armored formations but critical junctures like bridges, command posts, etc. After some tweaking and accelerated trials, the results are even more promising with the French and Germans offered to participate and observe. The American Roland system consisting of a remote turret with twin Roland launchers is mated with the new radars and fire control suite to a modified M60 chassis with a slightly raised superstructure to help accommodate the internal storage of additional Roland SAMS and an automatic reloading system. A version based on the M2 chassis was also tried but the M60 chassis was more plentiful as M2's were already prioritized for other programs. Overall the program combining the Sgt. York with American Roland in a joint package that integrates both vehicles is a success that led to Congress financing not just procurement of the Sgt. York, but also more Roland systems from the French-German manufacturer Euromissile. In the case of the American Roland ADA system, it was dubbed M248 Roland.

The French and West Germans, for their part were quite impressed with the result, so much that an agreement was reached when the Americans began purchasing more Roland's, the French and West Germans also procured elements of the Sgt. York for their use. In the case of the West Germans, the modified radar components were brought and tested on the Flakpanzer Gepard with appreciable results, and an upgrade program was implemented for the system that combined the radars and fire control along with adding twin racks of Stinger antiaircraft missiles to the turrets for added firepower. As for the French, they found themselves in need a of a new, far more capable ADA artillery vehicle than the current AMX-13 DCA in the French Army. The turret, armament, radar and fire control of the Sgt. York was purchased and modified to fit onto an AMX-30 chassis, resulting in a system that was better capable at defending the French armored formations from air threats. The vehicle, dubbed AMX-30 DCA, was often nicknamed the "French York" by NATO troops, as one French general later stated, "the vehicle embodies the spirit of Sgt. York who valiantly defended France during the first Great War."

EDIT: Another customer for the Roland/Sgt. York integrated ADA program was surprisingly, Australia who really needed a decent ADA system for their ANZAC forces and could complement their other SHORAD units that were being implemented. In the case of Australia, the Roland and Sgt. York systems were both implemented on Leopard I chassis (using assistance from both the Americans and West Germans) that were left as surplus after Australia had it's armored force beefed up with American-supplied reconditioned M1 Abrams tanks and Cadillac Gage Stingray tanks.

The combination of integrated radar systems with Roland and components of the Sgt. York for the French and German military allowed them to take better advantage of the CORAD system. CORAD was also implemented in the US Army and Marine corps, used often (but not limited to) defending key sites such as airfields, forward command posts, etc. A similar approach was implemented for the ANZAC forces. The Sgt. York/Roland system and it's derivatives was often feared/hated by Soviet/Iranian/Iraqi/North Korean/Indonesian/WARPA pilots the world over as it racked up an impressive kill tally during the war.

EDIT: Made an edit here as per discussion about the ANZAC's.

 

[Aaron Fox]

Had another "mad scientist" moment, copied this from another discussion thread about M247 York on the war college subforum:


-
So let's say the Sgt. York gets resurrected as discussed. Around this same time the US Army had purchased in modest amounts the Roland SAM system that was jointly developed by the French and Germans. IRL, it was only fielded by the National Guard in limited capacity as due to issues with technology transfer and also a bit of the old "Not Invented Here" rearing it's ugly head. Interestingly enough, also in real life the US Army purchased several lots of the Roland for further eval after the initial failure of the Sgt. York program.

But let's assume with an increase in tensions worldwide, and with the success of Sgt. York, the eggheads get another idea, after looking at the CORAD (Coordinated Roland Air Defense) system that integrates a radar and several Roland launchers and ADA guns. The radar systems used in Sgt. York are modified for use with the American Roland system to allow joint integration into a true gun-and-missile ADA system that can be used not just to protect armored formations but critical junctures like bridges, command posts, etc. After some tweaking and accelerated trials, the results are even more promising with the French and Germans offered to participate and observe. The American Roland system consisting of a remote turret with twin Roland launchers is mated with the new radars and fire control suite to a modified M60 chassis with a slightly raised superstructure to help accommodate the internal storage of additional Roland SAMS and an automatic reloading system. A version based on the M2 chassis was also tried but the M60 chassis was more plentiful as M2's were already prioritized for other programs. Overall the program combining the Sgt. York with American Roland in a joint package that integrates both vehicles is a success that led to Congress financing not just procurement of the Sgt. York, but also more Roland systems from the French-German manufacturer Euromissile. In the case of the American Roland ADA system, it was dubbed M248 Roland.

The French and West Germans, for their part were quite impressed with the result, so much that an agreement was reached when the Americans began purchasing more Roland's, the French and West Germans also procured elements of the Sgt. York for their use. In the case of the West Germans, the modified radar components were brought and tested on the Flakpanzer Gepard with appreciable results, and an upgrade program was implemented for the system that combined the radars and fire control along with adding twin racks of Stinger antiaircraft missiles to the turrets for added firepower. As for the French, they found themselves in need a of a new, far more capable ADA artillery vehicle than the current AMX-13 DCA in the French Army. The turret, armament, radar and fire control of the Sgt. York was purchased and modified to fit onto an AMX-30 chassis, resulting in a system that was better capable at defending the French armored formations from air threats. The vehicle, dubbed AMX-30 DCA, was often nicknamed the "French York" by NATO troops, as one French general later stated, "the vehicle embodies the spirit of Sgt. York who valiantly defended France during the first Great War."

EDIT: Another customer for the Roland/Sgt. York integrated ADA program was surprisingly, Australia and New Zealand who really needed a decent ADA system for their ANZAC forces and could complement their other SHORAD units that were being implemented. In the case of Australia and New Zealand, the Roland and Sgt. York systems were both implemented on Leopard I chassis (using assistance from both the Americans and West Germans) that were left as surplus after Australia had it's armored force beefed up with American-supplied reconditioned M1 Abrams tanks and Cadillac Gage Stingray tanks.

The combination of integrated radar systems with Roland and components of the Sgt. York for the French and German military allowed them to take better advantage of the CORAD system. CORAD was also implemented in the US Army and Marine corps, used often (but not limited to) defending key sites such as airfields, forward command posts, etc. A similar approach was implemented for the Australian and New Zealand ANZAC forces. The Sgt. York/Roland system and it's derivatives was often feared/hated by Soviet/Iranian/Iraqi/North Korean/Indonesian/WARPA pilots the world over as it racked up an impressive kill tally during the war.

As I said in the York thread, during this time the US Army was really looking into the ADATS system at this time, and by 1991 everything was ready for the Bradley ADATS system to be implemented... but the Cold War ended with a whimper before that happened.

When you look into Bradley ADATS, the US Army was actually going all-in into the program... just budget cuts got in the way.

 

[Tiamat]

As I said in the York thread, during this time the US Army was really looking into the ADATS system at this time, and by 1991 everything was ready for the Bradley ADATS system to be implemented... but the Cold War ended with a whimper before that happened.

When you look into Bradley ADATS, the US Army was actually going all-in into the program... just budget cuts got in the way.

I can see the ADATS program getting implemented, but probably no more than say, several months or less before the war starts as they're still ironing out the bugs. In which case, with the M2 chassis already slated for other programs, it enters low rate production and really doesn't see significant use with the US Army until midway through the war as even then there's still accelerated trials and "field tests". It does get implemented on a few other vehicle chassis besides the M2 though, including the LAV and some M-20 Ridgeway chassis for the Light Divisions and Airborne.

 

[Aaron Fox]

I can see the ADATS program getting implemented, but probably no more than say, several months or less before the war starts as they're still ironing out the bugs. In which case, with the M2 chassis already slated for other programs, it enters low rate production and really doesn't see significant use with the US Army until midway through the war as even then there's still accelerated trials and "field tests". It does get implemented on a few other vehicle chassis besides the M2 though, including the LAV and some M-20 Ridgeway chassis for the Light Divisions and Airborne.

You thought this out, didn't you? Better than some then.

 

[CarlManvers2019]

@Tiamat
I know you’ve said that Hollywood won’t be turning traitorous anymore, though likely remain “Liberal-Democrat”-esque

But any chance over the coming years there will be an increase in Anti-Communist Entertainment?



I think this can be a constantly played Arcade Game(the Russian Mafiya in this game apparently has good ties with the USSR and operates in the USA with their assistance)

 

[Aaron Fox]

@Tiamat, I've gotten my dad's Jane's Land-Based Air Defense 2003-2004 book and found an interesting project that you might be interested in: the Wildcat. It's essentially a twin 30mm design that started in the '70s and initially ended in the late '80s. Got shelved for a few years before marketing started up again in the 2000s. It's designed to be fitted onto the M48/M60 chassis, Leo1s, AMX-30s, the 7FA APC, the Piranha ACV, and the M113 to name a few. Basically, if the chassis can fit a turret ring of 2,200mm (2.2m) and a payload of 5,900kg/5.9 tons, it can fit.

Uses Mauser Mk30 as armament, but outside of Jane's, I can't find much about it.

 

[Tiamat]

@Tiamat, I've gotten my dad's Jane's Land-Based Air Defense 2003-2004 book and found an interesting project that you might be interested in: the Wildcat. It's essentially a twin 30mm design that started in the '70s and initially ended in the late '80s. Got shelved for a few years before marketing started up again in the 2000s. It's designed to be fitted onto the M48/M60 chassis, Leo1s, AMX-30s, the 7FA APC, the Piranha ACV, and the M113 to name a few. Basically, if the chassis can fit a turret ring of 2,200mm (2.2m) and a payload of 5,900kg/5.9 tons, it can fit.

Uses Mauser Mk30 as armament, but outside of Jane's, I can't find much about it.

Already ahead of you...go check the NATO Equipment list, Addendum F: NATO R&D and Acquisition under West Germany.

EDIT: Here's a link you might find interesting.

Forecast International: Intelligence Center

Forecast International provides Market Research, Market Analysis, Intelligence and Consulting for the Aerospace / Aviation, Defense, Power Systems and Defense Electronics industries and is renowned for its unbiased approach to its research.

www.forecastinternational.com

 

[Aaron Fox]

Already ahead of you...go check the NATO Equipment list, Addendum F: NATO R&D and Acquisition under West Germany.

EDIT: Here's a link you might find interesting.

Forecast International: Intelligence Center

Forecast International provides Market Research, Market Analysis, Intelligence and Consulting for the Aerospace / Aviation, Defense, Power Systems and Defense Electronics industries and is renowned for its unbiased approach to its research.

www.forecastinternational.com

Huh, must of zipped past it... odd...

 

[Trace Coburn]

Just a minor note as I'm continuing work on the next chapter: Would the Australians and New Zealanders still be going forward with, or possibly accelerating procurement of the Steyr AUG assault rifle to replace their SLR rifles around this time, 1987-1988, or would they consider an alternative, say, M16A2's or a variant thereof as the US is already sending quite a bit of military equipment to the two countries as they're reactivating the ANZAC's?

I don't know if the M16A3 would see fielding this early yet, then again it wouldn't be hard to produce since the biggest difference from the A2 is the full auto setting (as opposed to the three round burst on the A2) and the installation of the Picatinny rail system on the receiver and the furniture, unless the concept is being looked at since the M4 is now entering production in this timeline and this draws the attention of Australia and New Zealand, as their SAS were using the M16 rifles. Thoughts??

My personal preference is for the Steyr AUG; I’ve always felt that it was a solid choice for our troops and gave them a distinctive flair. Certainly, the NZ Army would still have some Vietnam-era personnel in uniform by this point, and they would well remember the, erm, mixed reputation the M16 took out of that conflict, so they might be leery. However, my personal preference is not national policy, and I could easily see the Americans all but giving us new-build M16A3s as part of their Lend-Lease package.

Related to the above: you mention the ANZACs receiving Roland SAM systems built on surplus Leopard-1 hulls. Those are likely to be owned and operated exclusively by the Aussies, and stored in Australia post-war; New Zealand just doesn’t have the road-network for armoured vehicles that heavy. Hell, the LAV-IIIs we have IRL are pretty marginal for most of our roads.

Related to that: Kiwi armour, especially in relation to said domestic terrain/infrastructure issues. If this stuff is going to be Lend-Lease and returned to the original makers at the end of the war, or simply left in-theatre for the US to reclaim when our troops come home, I can see us going for almost whatever kit is deemed most capable and interoperable with Allied forces (i.e. writer’s discretion). OTOH, if our lads are going to be bringing the stuff home with them once the shooting is all over, that forces certain choices. I see us asking for a package of Piranha LAV IFVs like we did IOTL, possibly Canadian-made articles, to complement the Stingray light tanks you’ve given us up-thread.

Related to that: Kiwi SPAAGs. Even in the face of a looming war, our politicians are perennial skinflints with the defence budget, and they’ll be looking to shave corners wherever they can. My personal preference would be for our LAV purchase to include a number of LAVs fitted with the turret of the LAV-AD, or better yet the improved version mounted on the Bradley-Hellblazer. There is also the possibility of fitting LAVs with the Italian SIDAM system (which mounts quad Oerlikon KBA autocannon, firing the same 25mm shells as the GAU-12/U and M242), but IIRC the sensor suite on SIDAM isn’t as good as you describe Hellblazer, and I’m not entirely sure of when it was introduced. In any case, ammunition commonality between the IFVs and the SPAAGs is probably going to factor into deciding what system we request.
(Of course, Reagan could well say ‘you’ll get what we give you and you’ll bloody well be grateful about it’, which honestly is no less than some of those chiselers deserve, so again, simply presenting additional information to be used at the author’s discretion.)

 

[Tiamat]

My personal preference is for the Steyr AUG; I’ve always felt that it was a solid choice for our troops and gave them a distinctive flair. Certainly, the NZ Army would still have some Vietnam-era personnel in uniform by this point, and they would well remember the, erm, mixed reputation the M16 took out of that conflict, so they might be leery. However, my personal preference is not national policy, and I could easily see the Americans all but giving us new-build M16A3s as part of their Lend-Lease package.

Related to the above: you mention the ANZACs receiving Roland SAM systems built on surplus Leopard-1 hulls. Those are likely to be owned and operated exclusively by the Aussies, and stored in Australia post-war; New Zealand just doesn’t have the road-network for armoured vehicles that heavy. Hell, the LAV-IIIs we have IRL are pretty marginal for most of our roads.

Related to that: Kiwi armour, especially in relation to said domestic terrain/infrastructure issues. If this stuff is going to be Lend-Lease and returned to the original makers at the end of the war, or simply left in-theatre for the US to reclaim when our troops come home, I can see us going for almost whatever kit is deemed most capable and interoperable with Allied forces (i.e. writer’s discretion). OTOH, if our lads are going to be bringing the stuff home with them once the shooting is all over, that forces certain choices. I see us asking for a package of Piranha LAV IFVs like we did IOTL, possibly Canadian-made articles, to complement the Stingray light tanks you’ve given us up-thread.

Related to that: Kiwi SPAAGs. Even in the face of a looming war, our politicians are perennial skinflints with the defence budget, and they’ll be looking to shave corners wherever they can. My personal preference would be for our LAV purchase to include a number of LAVs fitted with the turret of the LAV-AD, or better yet the improved version mounted on the Bradley-Hellblazer. There is also the possibility of fitting LAVs with the Italian SIDAM system (which mounts quad Oerlikon KBA autocannon, firing the same 25mm shells as the GAU-12/U and M242), but IIRC the sensor suite on SIDAM isn’t as good as you describe Hellblazer, and I’m not entirely sure of when it was introduced. In any case, ammunition commonality between the IFVs and the SPAAGs is probably going to factor into deciding what system we request.
(Of course, Reagan could well say ‘you’ll get what we give you and you’ll bloody well be grateful about it’, which honestly is no less than some of those chiselers deserve, so again, simply presenting additional information to be used at the author’s discretion.)

Hmm, after further brainstorming, and a few discussions, here's what I'm thinking:

Australia and New Zealand push ahead with a license for domestic production of the Steyr AUG, this allows their new rifles to be built domestically and safely, and they can tailor it for their own specific needs as required. Of course, it takes a little time to get production going, so a batch of M16A3 rifles are sent to equip some Aussie and Kiwi forces as more of a stopgap measure. As more of the Steyr AUG rifles are produced and sent to forces, that becomes the standard rifle of both armies. At the outbreak of war, you'd likely see a mix of M16A3's and Steyr AUG's in both armies, with certain personnel such as special operations getting higher priority. That said, you'd likely also still see some reserve formations with L1A1 rifles IMO, with some getting fitted for scopes for use as DMR's.

Kiwi Armor: Good point about the armor for NZ, the thought is that the Kiwis will be responsible for bringing home and looking after whatever armor they get, so probably either LAV-25's or the Canadian-built Piranha LAV's, or hell a mix of both as manufacturing permits to complement the Kiwis Stingray tanks. This allows the Kiwis easier logistics and continued interoperability while the heavier equipment is sent to Australia. I get the feeling when the ANZAC's get deployed to the Korean peninsula the Aussies will run the ANZAC spearhead with the heavy armor while the Kiwis perform screening and flanking attacks.

Kiwi SPAAGs: Damn penny pinchers, augh, but fair points raised. So, for the Kiwis, the best compromise and to ensure decent logistics and interoperability, would be a variation of the Hellblazer turret mounted on a LAV chassis. That and some HMWWV Avengers might be the best fit for the Kiwis while the Aussies get the Sgt. York/Leopard derivative and Roland.

Thanks for the input! Now I gotta go back and make more edits to the equipment lists....again.


EDIT: If one is gonna ding the M16 series, I'll kindly remind everyone the British Army IRL was adopting the SA80 around 1987...and all the horrors that came with it.

 

[Aaron Fox]

Hmm, after further brainstorming, and a few discussions, here's what I'm thinking:

Australia and New Zealand push ahead with a license for domestic production of the Steyr AUG, this allows their new rifles to be built domestically and safely, and they can tailor it for their own specific needs as required. Of course, it takes a little time to get production going, so a batch of M16A3 rifles are sent to equip some Aussie and Kiwi forces as more of a stopgap measure. As more of the Steyr AUG rifles are produced and sent to forces, that becomes the standard rifle of both armies. At the outbreak of war, you'd likely see a mix of M16A3's and Steyr AUG's in both armies, with certain personnel such as special operations getting higher priority. That said, you'd likely also still see some reserve formations with L1A1 rifles IMO, with some getting fitted for scopes for use as DMR's.

Kiwi Armor: Good point about the armor for NZ, the thought is that the Kiwis will be responsible for bringing home and looking after whatever armor they get, so probably either LAV-25's or the Canadian-built Piranha LAV's, or hell a mix of both as manufacturing permits to complement the Kiwis Stingray tanks. This allows the Kiwis easier logistics and continued interoperability while the heavier equipment is sent to Australia. I get the feeling when the ANZAC's get deployed to the Korean peninsula the Aussies will run the ANZAC spearhead with the heavy armor while the Kiwis perform screening and flanking attacks.

Kiwi SPAAGs: Damn penny pinchers, augh, but fair points raised. So, for the Kiwis, the best compromise and to ensure decent logistics and interoperability, would be a variation of the Hellblazer turret mounted on a LAV chassis. That and some HMWWV Avengers might be the best fit for the Kiwis while the Aussies get the Sgt. York/Leopard derivative and Roland.

Thanks for the input! Now I gotta go back and make more edits to the equipment lists....again.


EDIT: If one is gonna ding the M16 series, I'll kindly remind everyone the British Army IRL was adopting the SA80 around 1987...and all the horrors that came with it.

The problems with the M16 is mostly due to the dominant 'rifle mafia' within the US military at the time, and a lot of the problems stem from their attempts to kill the M16. Removal of the chrome liner, the lack of cleaning kits, the myth of it being 'self-cleaning'? All stems from the Rifle Mafia's sheer hatred of the weapon.

The SA80's problems stem that Britain wanted something cheap to replace their FALs that is compact and uses the 5.56mm. Problems came about due to the fact that this was the first weapon that LeEnfield designed in over a decade, the entire thing was expedited, and it was done cheaply. The M16 had Stoner -who could be called a weaponsmith genius- designing it. The SA80 didn't.

 

[Tiamat]

The problems with the M16 is mostly due to the dominant 'rifle mafia' within the US military at the time, and a lot of the problems stem from their attempts to kill the M16. Removal of the chrome liner, the lack of cleaning kits, the myth of it being 'self-cleaning'? All stems from the Rifle Mafia's sheer hatred of the weapon.

The SA80's problems stem that Britain wanted something cheap to replace their FALs that is compact and uses the 5.56mm. Problems came about due to the fact that this was the first weapon that LeEnfield designed in over a decade, the entire thing was expedited, and it was done cheaply. The M16 had Stoner -who could be called a weaponsmith genius- designing it. The SA80 didn't.

From what I heard/read with the M16 platform it was at least initially more a matter of trying to cut corners and save money (sound familiar??) with the issues of lack of a chrome liner and a cheap propellant when Stoner was very explicit about what the correct propellant charge should be for the rifle. But the lack of cleaning kits and claims it didn't need to be cleaned was utter stupidity on the part of the brass. The prejudice against the weapon due to the Garand/M14 cult didn't help either. The American forces, with a few exceptions like Aachen for example didn't quite have the experience of hellish urban combat like the Soviets did with Stalingrad and Berlin. If they had I'd like to think(!) they would have been more receptive to a new assault rifle, it's what persuaded the Soviets to invest in mass fire for their troops by equipping whole platoons with PPSH submachineguns and later the AK series.

In this timeline I MAY have been a little generous in having the M4 come out earlier along with the M16A3, but again it's due to the events of GREEN FOX in Mexico where the urban battles in cities like Veracruz and Monterrey were horrific, and force the Pentagon to take another look at MOUT (Mounted Operations in Urban Terrain) and realize they were just fighting Third World combatants, the Soviets on the other hand have a lot more experience at this than the Americans do.

As for the SA80...not sure what can really be done about that. The British will go to war with what they have. They'll try to make improvements but it's hard with the issues as described by Aaron Fox, plus the fact the components are being made across several factories. I would not be surprised if British troops end up using a lot of "battlefield pickup" weapons. Supposedly IRL the issues were solved when Heckler and Koch took over redesign and production but in this timeline that likely won't be until after the war, and plenty of bad press.

 

[Aaron Fox]

From what I heard/read with the M16 platform it was at least initially more a matter of trying to cut corners and save money (sound familiar??) with the issues of lack of a chrome liner and a cheap propellant when Stoner was very explicit about what the correct propellant charge should be for the rifle. But the lack of cleaning kits and claims it didn't need to be cleaned was utter stupidity on the part of the brass. The prejudice against the weapon due to the Garand/M14 cult didn't help either. The American forces, with a few exceptions like Aachen for example didn't quite have the experience of hellish urban combat like the Soviets did with Stalingrad and Berlin. If they had I'd like to think(!) they would have been more receptive to a new assault rifle, it's what persuaded the Soviets to invest in mass fire for their troops by equipping whole platoons with PPSH submachineguns and later the AK series.

In this timeline I MAY have been a little generous in having the M4 come out earlier along with the M16A3, but again it's due to the events of GREEN FOX in Mexico where the urban battles in cities like Veracruz and Monterrey were horrific, and force the Pentagon to take another look at MOUT (Mounted Operations in Urban Terrain) and realize they were just fighting Third World combatants, the Soviets on the other hand have a lot more experience at this than the Americans do.

From what I understand about the M16, some of the 'cost-cutting' measures were attempts at killing the M16, but that is from what I've heard. It took McNamara and those that followed McNamara's... ideology... intervening directly to clean up that hot mess (from what I heard, he wanted the M16 to Stoner's specs, given that he was pushing for a very tech- and firepower-centric (i.e. use a smaller amount of manpower for the job, exploit technology to its fullest and further still, etc.) US military and while some of his ideas didn't pan out (the infamous 'send retards to the military' being the biggest standout), he did spur on things like exoskeleton research, drones, various vision enhancement devices, etc.) from what I've heard.

As for the SA80...not sure what can really be done about that. The British will go to war with what they have. They'll try to make improvements but it's hard with the issues as described by Aaron Fox, plus the fact the components are being made across several factories. I would not be surprised if British troops end up using a lot of "battlefield pickup" weapons. Supposedly IRL the issues were solved when Heckler and Koch took over redesign and production but in this timeline that likely won't be until after the war, and plenty of bad press.

It is likely that due to wartime pressures, the production lines will get consolidated, where each factory can make the entire weapon... but that would require the Thatcher government to be willing to tell their privatization fetish where to stuff it.

The biggest problem with the M4s is going to be that the current 5.56NATO stock was designed for a 20-inch barrel, not something just shy of 3/4s of that original length. From what I've heard, the 5.56's ballistics got a bit... weird... from something less than a 20-inch barrel. This would be fixed in the later production runs of the 5.56NATO but from what I can remember those won't show up until the '90s.

 

[Tiamat]

FYI, made an edit to Addendum D: Women in the Military prior to WWIII.

Essentially, the USSR decided to bring back the days of the Night Witches of WW2 after seeing the American push to open slots to females to increase their own attack squadrons. Which means when the war comes there'll be potentially a lot of air-to-air "catfights"...

 

[CarlManvers2019]

FYI, made an edit to Addendum D: Women in the Military prior to WWIII.

Essentially, the USSR decided to bring back the days of the Night Witches of WW2 after seeing the American push to open slots to females to increase their own attack squadrons. Which means when the war comes there'll be potentially a lot of air-to-air "catfights"...

Somehow, I foresee Western Feminists screaming about this whilst being drafted

 

[Tiamat]

Somehow, I foresee Western Feminists screaming about this whilst being drafted

They would look rather silly and hypocritical for "not showing they can be the equal of men in battle and rather choosing to hide behind them", don't you think....?

Something the Reagan Administration will be more than happy to remind them...

 

[CarlManvers2019]

They would look rather silly and hypocritical for "not showing they can be the equal of men in battle and rather choosing to hide behind them", don't you think....?

Something the Reagan Administration will be more than happy to remind them...

I know you’ve said Hollywood and other Entertainment Producers received visits, but any chance they’ll change their minds or have they been really indoctrinated and are passing it onto future generations too much

Though, I think Reagan making a point of “I don’t care what race or sex or creed you are, we all have to fight the Commies or we’re screwed” as being a great show of equal-opportunity

Time for the hippies to realize they’re free-r than thought?

 

[Tiamat]

A short preview of the upcoming chapter. "A Night on the Town" Hopefully out this week...

**


Friedrichstrasse, West Berlin

Federal Republic of Germany

May 29, 1987



West Berlin, one half of a city that was a bastion of Western civilization within the East German DDR, was teeming with life, a bit cool, and wet, even in late May. Especially wet. To John Roper, who was hardly a stranger to Berlin, East or West, he wished he was there under happier circumstances…



It was another busy evening in West Berlin tonight. Beneath the towering architecture of glass and steel, gray and black stone granite, the streets were slick with a sheen of rainwater that mirrored the streetlights that illuminated the avenue of Freidrichstrasse. The typical pedestrians, old and young alike, hurried along about their own business under the night sky, which thankfully had just turned to a slight drizzle from a more recent downpour. At a street corner, John Roper, who for all the world looked like any of the other pedestrians seen around the city, was quietly observing the comings and goings of everyone as he munched on a serving of kartoffelpuffer und apfelmus, potato pancakes with a side of applesauce on a paper tray he’d bought from the neighboring food kiosk. He was dressed in a rather nondescriptive long-sleeved shirt and matching trousers, over which was a long charcoal-gray duster. His modest head of hair, typically salt and pepper in tone had been dyed a dark blonde. A five-o’clock shadow of stubble decorated his somewhat tanned complexion and square-jawed face, with a pair of wire-rimmed glasses perched on his nose that framed steel-blue eyes.



Not bad, he thought, as he smothered another piece of fried potato pancake in the applesauce and bit into it, though it’s not as good as Wolfgang’s. I imagine he’s still puttering around in his blue Mercedes van selling food to the BAOR. To his left he spied two older middle-aged men, appropriately dressed for the damp evening, one was reading the latest copy of Der Welt, while the other appeared to be enmeshed in the late edition of Süddeutsche Zeitung. Both blared the headline of the shootdown of one Mathias Rust, who had foolishly attempted to fly a Cessna into Soviet airspace from Finland in some bizarre attempt to “create a bridge to the East” according to his family. The Soviet Air Defense Forces, or PVO had replied in kind with two SA-5 SAM’s that had blown the aircraft and its pilot apart. I doubt they’ll find anything left of the poor bastard, he mused, he’s probably scattered over three oblasts. Some unpleasant comparisons were already getting drawn between it and the shootdown of South Korean airline KAL 007 back in ’83, or at least some of the protesters that had tried to scale the fence of the Soviet Embassy in Bonn had shouted as much before getting arrested by the stadtpolizie. It was yet another chapter in the latest bout of insanity that the world had been experiencing ever since the ’86 October Coup.



For John, a present employee of what was often referred to simply as “The Company”, it had been a rather busy year so far. He’d spent an extended “working vacation” down in Mexico and elsewhere earlier that year with all the shenanigans going on, only for yet another coup to go down in March, this time in Indonesia. The local media had blared images of Suharto along with a number of his aides getting executed rather unceremoniously by firing squad, with the “People’s Revolutionary Council of Indonesia” now declaring full control. The cherry on top was the Soviet merchant convoy with a surface warship escort that had docked in Jakarta later that month, laden with military hardware that had the Australians and New Zealand screaming murder. It was yet another disaster that had the Reagan Administration screaming at the Company to take a more aggressive approach and find out what the Soviets were up to. Rumors were running rife about what just was actually going on in the U.S.S.R. ever since most of the intel-gathering network within had either been forced to exfiltrate or had been terminated with the coup. Just about everyone from the Americans and British, to the French and the Israelis had redoubled their efforts to try to rebuild a new network behind the Iron Curtain and find out what was going on…which partly led to why John Roper, member of the C.I.A.’s Special Activities Division, or SAD, was there tonight.



It had just been a few days ago apparently that a “business partner” of John’s within the Company, a fairly adventurous analyst of all things by the name of Jack Ryan, had received a coded message via a courier in regards to one Arseny Semenov, who had met Ryan more than once at a few host embassy functions before the coup. Semenov was in an official capacity a cultural attaché with the Soviet embassy in Bonn, but often spent his time in West Berlin fraternizing with the youth of the city at various coffee houses and discotheques. He was the son of a high party official within the Politburo who had emerged from the coup along with his son relatively unscathed. Of course, like most Soviet cultural attaches he was also a member of the KGB, and had been seen fairly often in the company of the more leftist-minded youth of West Germany, with at least a few suspect connections to individuals involved with the Baader-Meinhof Group. Semenov for his part however has not been considered as high on the list of persons of interest to the Western intelligence agencies, at least until now.



The message had been translated, and was basically summed as “Get me the hell out of here and to London, and I’ll spill everything I know.”



And so John Roper, who had been reassigned to CIA Station London with Ryan, had been ushered into a meeting in the “tank” at Grosvenor Square, where he had been given the briefing by both Jack Ryan and another fellow from MI6, Kenneth Aubrey. Both the CIA and MI6 concurred that Semenov was very much both a political survivalist as well as careerist, and wasn’t held in the highest regard, but he was still deemed as loyal to the Soviet Union, even after the coup. If he was now begging to defect, either it was a setup, Semenov or his father had done something to royally piss off the Politburo, or Semenov had stumbled upon something that had scared the hell out of him. And thus, a rather hasty joint operation between the CIA and MI6 was set up. Two agents would make contact with Semenov in a private loft he was known to frequent above a local discotheque in West Berlin, escort him to a waiting vehicle transport, and drive him to Gatow airport where a private jet chartered by the UK would fly him directly to Heathrow airport. It all seemed rather simple…or so it was hoped.



John had grimaced at all this...he was getting a bad feeling about getting a briefing for an op from a man like Ryan who had been involved in a rather bold affair involving a defecting Soviet submarine captain and his prototype sub back in ‘83, or from an MI6 associate like Kenneth Aubrey who seemed to be jockeying for the same dubious prize by organizing the covert theft of one of the Soviet Union’s most advanced warplanes that same year. With everything that went on in ’83, I’m amazed we didn’t go to war then, he mused. Still, why send him to grab some low-level KGB spook in West Berlin? It would’ve made more sense to have Special Force Detachment Berlin handle this themselves, but I heard they’ve got their hands full with a dozen other things since the October Coup, plus something related to Reagan’s upcoming visit to the city. Still, something’s not right. John hated that feeling…it was the same feeling he’d gotten once before in Istanbul as he’d tangled with the infamous KGB duo known as the “Hawk and Sparrow”. What a hot mess that was…and there they were again in Veracruz during that debacle. I get the feeling I haven’t seen the last of those two…



And so here he was in a city that had a well-deserved reputation of being a virtual playground for espionage and agents of all stripes, standing at a street corner on Friedrichstrasse, appearing for all the world as just another pedestrian enjoying some local street food just several blocks from the infamous Berlin Wall crossing known as “Checkpoint Charlie”. There was little traffic crossing the checkpoint as of late, with a more noticeable presence at the gate in the form of two TOW-armed M113A3 armored personnel carriers. The East Germans had responded in kind with two BMP-2’s that were similarly set up on their side of the crossing facing the Americans. At least it’s not as bad as the Berlin Crisis in ’61…yet, he thought. Across the street, many colorfully dressed German youth were gathered outside, chatting amiably and smoking cigarettes in front of a discotheque from which inside the music could be faintly heard blaring out into the cool evening. Above the façade of the club hung a glowing red neon sign that was labeled Rotes Quadrat…Red Square. Whoever came up with that name must have a real bizarre sense of humor, Roper mused, I’m sure these kid’s parents didn’t have such fond memories of the Soviets back in ’45. Still, it was John’s target, and he’d quietly been observing the place for the last fifteen minutes. Nothing seemed out of the ordinary…yet. And now it was just a matter of waiting for his source to show up to provide a discreet way to get in without too much attention. He’d packed appropriately…a Glock 19 9mm pistol along with several 15-round magazines hidden in a quickdraw back holster on his belt, along with an ankle holster that held a backup Walther PPK in .380 and a few concealable blades were on his person. He was a longtime aficionado of the 1911 pistol, but had quickly come to appreciate Austrian engineering with the Glock series of handguns that had exploded on the market.



His wait appeared to finally end when a tan-colored Volkswagen Derby automobile sidled up to the curb just down the street, and parked. A man of medium height and build, with a knitted cap and jacket got out of the car and proceeded to pop open the hood of the car. He fished a flashlight out of his jacket pocket, switched it on…then it appeared to switch off and on, twice as he shook it as though he were having an issue with it. It switched off and on again, twice before he began peering under the hood.



That’s the cue, let’s get this show on the road. John finished the last crumb from his paper tray, wiped his mouth with a handkerchief, and tossed it aside into a trashcan before proceeding to walk at a relaxed pace down the street, weaving between pedestrians toward the parked Volkswagen car and its driver who continued to pore over the engine. As he drew closer, he could hear the man muttering with a noticeable British accent, “Bunch’a rubbish, this is. Fine German engineering, my arse.” Sounds like he might be from Manchester, or around the area.



“Guten Abend, mein herr. Gibt es ein problem mit ihrem auto?” Roper inquired nonchalantly with what would have passed as a typical inner-Berlin accent.



The man turned from his engine, tufts of reddish hair peeking out from under his knitted cap that matched the mustache on his somewhat youthful features, regarding John with hazel eyes that appeared to study him carefully. “Sorry mate, but I’m afraid I don’t speak much German, I’m not from ‘round ‘ere. Just another tourist, I am.” He looked overall like the sort of nondescript man anyone would forget if they didn’t know better. Probably MI6, John thought.



“Ah, my apologies, I do speak English as well. You are having trouble with your automobile, yes?” John inquired with that faux Berlin accent he’d used more often than he’d cared to remember…which had also gotten him out of a jam more than once.



“Aye, this bloody auto has been squealing like a pig off and on since I started putterin’ about wit’it this mornin’. Blasted thing,” he growled as he turned back to look over the engine again with his flashlight.



“Ah, I’m afraid I do not know much about automobiles good sir. But by chance, would you happen to be able to recommend any good clubs around here? I am hoping to be a bit, ah, lucky tonight.”



The English fellow turned to regard Roper again incredulously. “You’re askin’ me about clubs around ‘ere? Well, I’d say you should try your luck with that one right across the street there…the Red Square, they call it,” gesturing to the discotheque across the street with his flashlight. “Just be mindful of the locals in there…they’re young and tend to be a bit more of the Karl Marx persuasion, if you get my meaning.” He fished a small card with a bit of handwriting stenciled on it out of his pocket, then deftly passed the card underhand to John who quickly pocketed it. It was a VIP pass for Red Square, with a signature of what was presumably the club’s owner on it. “I’d suggest the VIP entrance ‘round the back, if you’re truly feeling lucky. Then again, I think you’d have better luck in Vienna, mate,” he said, seeming to quickly repress a chuckle before turning back to the car.



John grimaced slightly at that. MI6 is still snickering about Vienna? Go figure. “Danke schoen, I appreciate the kindness,” he muttered, before whispering under his breath, “Jackass”.



“Wanker,” the Englishman muttered, not looking up from the engine.



Roper turned away and walked just a little further down to a crosswalk by an intersection and waited for the signal to turn green. He fished out a butane lighter from one pocket of his jacket, in the process deftly thumbing the switch that activated the throat mic that was woven into the collar of the shirt he wore, along with the hidden miniature receiver that he wore in his left ear. With his other hand he pulled out a pack of a local brand of cigarettes and inserted one in his mouth, then cupped his hands and flipped the wick, acting as though trying to light it.



“Observer, Spider, this is Wolf, made contact with the vendor, got what I needed from the concession stand. Making my way toward the club now,” he whispered under his breath as he finally lit the cigarette and proceed to puff, trying not to grimace. Dominican-made cigars were much more his personal poison, along with a good bourbon or whiskey



A moment passed before a somewhat scratchy, yet clear response could be heard through the receiver in his ear that was clipped, professional and American in tone. “AFFIRMATIVE WOLF, THIS IS OBSERVER, PACKAGE RETRIEVAL REMAINS A GO. SPIDER, ARE YOU IN POSITION?”



Another voice came over the receiver…and this was one, in spite of the faint static feedback, was a voice that John immediately recognized, a lilting female Russian-accented voice that was unmistakable. “AFFIRMATIVE OBSERVER, I’M IN POSITION. THE PARTY IS ON THE THIRD FLOOR, WITH THE PACKAGE. WOLF, MAKE YOUR WAY HERE AS QUICKLY AS YOU CAN, I’VE OBSERVED NOTHING UNUSUAL YET, BUT I’M EXPECTING TROUBLE. I’LL MEET YOU ON THE STAIRWAY AT THE BACK OF THE CLUB.”



Shit, if SHE of all people is here, something’s definitely up, John thought. But there was no time to dawdle. He quickly hurried across the street once the signal turned green and city traffic halted momentarily at the intersection. He walked a bit further, then turning down into a narrow, not-so-well lit alley that skirted the discotheque. His footsteps echoed through the alleyway as he kept his head on a swivel, staying alert for a potential ambush. Discarded wooden pallets, dumpsters full of trash and graffiti lined the alleyway as he made his way toward a door set in the rear of the club building that was illuminated by a single yellow sodium lamp. By the door stood a rather burly, balding man with a bored expression that indicated he’d rather be inside enjoying himself rather than guarding a door. Roper continued to casually smoke his cigarette as he idled toward the bouncer, who regarded him warily. The American carefully fished the card out of his jacket pocket, noticing the tense expression on the bouncer’s face. Looks like he might be former military by the way he carries himself, emphasis former. Still, that bulge he’s got under the left breast of his jacket is obvious enough. He flashed a casual smile and showed the VIP card to the bouncer who warily took it, along with the 50 Deutsche Mark bill folded with it.



“Arseny hat nach mir geschickt,” John spoke again with his faux Berlin accent as he continued to casually smoke his cigarette. The bouncer looked the American from top to bottom with a rather skeptical expression…before handing back the card, minus the 50 Deutsche Mark and unlocked it, gesturing him to go inside wordlessly and rather impatiently. The pounding music of the club gushed out of the club from the doorway like a cannon. John quickly walked inside as the bouncer unceremoniously locked the door behind him.

 

[CarlManvers2019]

This reminds me of that Atomic Blonde movie from years back with that West/East Berlin popping up

Say, what's with those youths' parents, are they just letting them be this way and are still paying for their stuff or their parents were already like their kids?

 

[Trace Coburn]

The SA80's problems stem that Britain wanted something cheap to replace their FALs that is compact and uses the 5.56mm. Problems came about due to the fact that this was the first weapon that LeEnfield designed in over a decade, the entire thing was expedited, and it was done cheaply. The M16 had Stoner - who could be called a weaponsmith genius- designing it. The SA80 didn't.

AIUI, there were certainly design issues with the L85, but the whole saga was really a multi-layered crap-sundae, and the hot-fudge topping that really made it what it was? The workforce had already been told that the factory was going to be closed once the production-run finished, and every worker there was going to be out on the street. So they stopped caring about doing their jobs properly, and standards of craftsmanship and quality-control dropped. Like off a cliff.
As Tiamat notes, if the L85 rollout turns into a dog's breakfast during a no-shit World War 3, a lot of British squaddies are going to 'obtain' other weapons pretty bloody sharpish, and the British government is going to have to take swift and firm rectifying action. If things get bad enough, we might see sudden unemployment and possibly even gaol-sentences for some of the individuals involved in that fiasco.