Alternate History World War III: 1988, aka "The War of '88"

[CarlManvers2019]

And, here's the snippet I added:

"Perhaps the most famous incident involving Wolfgang was when NATO had shifted the momentum and was pushing eastward into the Warsaw Pact region. Wolfgang and his aforementioned gypsy convoy, which in this case now had its own regular "unofficial escort" by way of several M2 Bradleys and upgunned HMMWV's, was trailing behind a thrust by elements of US V Corps and British I Corps into the DDR. They all had a surprise when a gaggle of bedraggled-looking NVA soldiers came out from a nearby forest, waving their hands. As the convoy came to a stop and the military escorts trained their weapons, the NVA soldiers made an instant beeline for Wolfgang's truck. The Americans shouted at the NVA troops to halt...until Wolfgang had an idea and came out with an armload of his own famous currywurst und pommes frites. The NVA soldiers practically kissed Wolfgang's hands and appeared to surrender to the food truck operator before they promptly devoured the food Wolfgang had offered to them, while the bemused Americans looked on. A CNN camera crew that had also been following the convoy that day caught the entire incident on video for the world to see of hungry, ragged NVA soldiers surrendering to a West German food vendor. It was later rumored that Erich Honecker upon seeing this himself nearly had a stroke."

NOICE

I think the Commies can spin this as an act of evil though

 

[CarlManvers2019]

@Tiamat
Say, any moments wherein Ex-Communist-Defectees outright tell the "useful idiots" on live television how much of a HELL they're supporting? Capitalism may have its flaws, but putting so much power in one government full of overworked and insane bureaucrats and politicians' a recipe for disaster

 

[Tiamat]

Went back and did some editing/proofreading here and there of the chapters. Changed Leontev Petrovkin's name to Leonid Petrovkin, because Leontev is a Russian last name and Leonid just rolls off better, yes, I'm a bit obsessive about some details. Also changed the likeness for Irina Illyanovich to that of Adrianne Palicki, I think she fits her description better, plus with some details coming out about the previous actress I had in mind (Amber Heard), I have some rather strong opinions about that.

Went back and did a whole bunch of editing and addition to the vehicle equipment lists under the threadmarks:

Added the 2S23 Nona wheeled Mortar carrier to the list. Ivan truly loves his mortars. Also fleshed out a bit further the description of the T-85, referred to as the "Dragon". It gains a reputation during the war much like the Tiger did during WW2, IE a terrifying beast that gives NATO tankers nightmares. Also did some other edits.

For NATO and Western-aligned countries, added the Kahu upgrade A-4 "Super Skyhawk" for New Zealand. Changed the details on the MRV upgrade for Australia, the upgrade is performed by AAI and the biggest change is the main gun is now the 75mm Ares autocannon. Canada also gets the ADATS configuration on M113's, but the US version still has teething issues and doesn't get out in time.

For the US list, did a LOT of addition and editing here. Added the Heckler and Koch CAWS shotgun, plus the "M-20 Ridgeway" airborne light tank based on the AAI RDF concept, as a shout out to Twilight 2000. The Vietnam-era "Slammer" rocket artillery concept is implemented and added on the HMWWV chassis as a low-cost counterbattery weapon at the battalion level. Reedited the description and sales of the Cadillace Gage Stingray to several countries, also added the F-18L Hornet and foreign sales of that aircraft too. Re-edited the description for the M1A1E variant of the Abrams and why it's nickname of "Steel Monster" by the Soviets is for a very valid reason. Redid the details on the HMMWV FSV as well. Added details on the fictional M-60A4 "Modernization package" for the U.S. Marines. Speaking of the Marines, changed the name of the LAV-105 to LAV-600 and explained in greater detail the design.

Don't worry, I'm not neglecting the naval aspects of the war in the least. I have a planned chapter on U.S. and Soviet naval developments circa 1987 also in the works, along with some US watercraft that sees a return of the Pegasus hydrofoil in a modified concept, and also a few watercraft that again takes notes from the Twilight 2000 vehicle guides...because what the hell, why not?

I think that's it for now, phew. Next chapter should be up soon!

 

[LordSunhawk]

I wonder if with the increased tensions and such in the years leading up to this that the media circus of deception regarding Sergeant York DIVAD might not occur. There's a great post in the War Room about how the system actually worked and just needed tuning when the NYT and WaPo pretty much bald-faced lied about things.

 

[Tiamat]

I wonder if with the increased tensions and such in the years leading up to this that the media circus of deception regarding Sergeant York DIVAD might not occur. There's a great post in the War Room about how the system actually worked and just needed tuning when the NYT and WaPo pretty much bald-faced lied about things.

You have given me an Evil Idea (TM)

 

[Quickdraw101]

Glad I wasn't the only one who thought of the M247.

 

[Tiamat]

Here's the entry for the M247 on the US List:

M247 "Sgt. York" DIVAD/SPAAG (Division Air Defense/Self Propelled Anti-Aircraft Gun)

The M247 Sgt. York was a program to develop a new self-propelled anti-aircraft artillery weapon for Division-level defense, but had a bit of a delayed and controversial development process. The system itself, in spite of some bugs and flaws in the system, along with a rather dubious thrashing by the Western press (specifically the New York Times and Atlantic Monthly) seemed to show some promise. Development was stopped in 1985, but was soon revisited again when the world situation began to deteriorate and Reagan announced the newly expanded defense bill, and the Army was in dire need of as many air defense assets as it could acquire. The fact that the original media reports about the M247 were fact-checked and shown to have glaring errors and omissions which resulted in a scandal also helped spur the Pentagon and Ford Aerospace to revisit the program and try a new approach. The vehicle was mated to an M60 chassis with an improved engine and transmission. Further development in electronics miniaturization and computer processing allowed the contractors to improve the overall fire control suite and work out most of the bugs. A 5000psi hydraulic system was installed in the turret to better handle the main guns. The main guns themselves had the original, worn L60 40mm Bofors cannons removed, and new Bofors L70 40mm cannons built by Oto Melares installed. Lastly, the fire control suite was given the option to fire either "standard" 40mm ammunition, or a new sensor-fused ammunition developed by Bofors for use against aerial targets, though this ammunition also soon found a very effective use as an airbursting munition against soft-skinned targets and troops in the open. Accelerated trials with the vehicle resulted in a platform that could finally keep up with the American armor formations, could track various targets even at treetop level, and could put out a veritable and deadly "wall of steel and flak" accurately at various aerial and ground targets. The only drawback is that it resulted in a vehicle that cost more than the program was meant to originally, but had resulted in a far superior vehicle regardless. Congress grudgingly made room in the budget for a battalion's worth of the vehicles, which initially were found operating alongside M60 tanks with the U.S. Marines and National Guard units, before it's use was spread out to other elements of the US Army as well. Foreign customers also expressed an interest in the vehicle, and this was where it found wider success as it was soon picked up for service by Austria, Israel, Italy, Taiwan, and Turkey. The system became even more popular to buyers in the postwar period as it was judged to be a far superior vehicle to surplus ZSU-23-4 vehicles.

 

[CarlManvers2019]

@Tiamat
Say, are there any food supply problems that will significantly increase soon?

 

[Tiamat]

@Tiamat
Say, are there any food supply problems that will significantly increase soon?

Patience, Grasshopper...

 

[CarlManvers2019]

Patience, Grasshopper...

Any chance Capitalists will be blamed and Communists are purposely gonna attack their enemies’ farms and food plantations?

 

[Aaron Fox]

Here's the entry for the M247 on the US List:

M247 "Sgt. York" DIVAD/SPAAG (Division Air Defense/Self Propelled Anti-Aircraft Gun)

The M247 Sgt. York was a program to develop a new self-propelled anti-aircraft artillery weapon for Division-level defense, but had a bit of a delayed and controversial development process. The system itself, in spite of some bugs and flaws in the system, along with a rather dubious thrashing by the Western press (specifically the New York Times and Atlantic Monthly) seemed to show some promise. Development was stopped in 1985, but was soon revisited again when the world situation began to deteriorate and Reagan announced the newly expanded defense bill, and the Army was in dire need of as many air defense assets as it could acquire. The fact that the reporters who "exposed" the flaws in the original system were later discredited when they were found together in a "compromising position with contraband items" by police also helped spur the Pentagon and Ford Aerospace to revisit the program and try a new approach. The vehicle was mated to an M60 chassis with an improved engine and transmission. Further development in electronics miniaturization and computer processing allowed the contractors to improve the overall fire control suite and work out most of the bugs. A 5000psi hydraulic system was installed in the turret to better handle the main guns. The main guns themselves had the original, worn L60 40mm Bofors cannons removed, and new Bofors L70 40mm cannons built by Oto Melares installed. Lastly, the fire control suite was given the option to fire either "standard" 40mm ammunition, or a new sensor-fused ammunition developed by Bofors for use against aerial targets, though this ammunition also soon found a very effective use as an airbursting munition against soft-skinned targets and troops in the open. Accelerated trials with the vehicle resulted in a platform that could finally keep up with the American armor formations, could track various targets even at treetop level, and could put out a veritable and deadly "wall of steel and flak" accurately at various aerial and ground targets. The only drawback is that it resulted in a vehicle that cost more than the program was meant to originally, but had resulted in a far superior vehicle regardless. Congress grudgingly made room in the budget for a battalion's worth of the vehicles, which initially were found operating alongside M60 tanks with the U.S. Marines and National Guard units, before it's use was spread out to other elements of the US Army as well. Foreign customers also expressed an interest in the vehicle, and this was where it found wider success as it was soon picked up for service by Austria, Israel, Italy, Taiwan, and Turkey. The system became even more popular to buyers in the postwar period as it was judged to be a far superior vehicle to surplus ZSU-23-4 vehicles.

Other than forgetting that NYT said in their article that the program would be continued because it is a needed program...

... and having 'contraband items' found is too convenient, how about having various news outlet fact-checkers -spurred on by a report done by the DoD about the entire York debacle (which discovered that the barrels selected by the program being made up of mostly worn-out L60 barrels because some penny pincher back in the mid-40s decided to put those in storage than have a bunch of new barrels on order)- go over the AtlMon piece and go 'ok, this is shakey as fuck' and discover that it was, in fact, shakey as fuck.

This, predictably, caused a major embarrassment with the military journalism community as a series of firings for 'gross misconduct' was undertaken, killing the career of the main AltMon reporter and kneecapped those that went full 'follow the leader'.

 

[Tiamat]

Other than forgetting that NYT said in their article that the program would be continued because it is a needed program...

... and having 'contraband items' found is too convenient, how about having various news outlet fact-checkers -spurred on by a report done by the DoD about the entire York debacle (which discovered that the barrels selected by the program being made up of mostly worn-out L60 barrels because some penny pincher back in the mid-40s decided to put those in storage than have a bunch of new barrels on order)- go over the AtlMon piece and go 'ok, this is shakey as fuck' and discover that it was, in fact, shakey as fuck.

This, predictably, caused a major embarrassment with the military journalism community as a series of firings for 'gross misconduct' was undertaken, killing the career of the main AltMon reporter and kneecapped those that went full 'follow the leader'.

I like that idea actually, it works...considering that military journalism, at least back then left a lot to be desired. Look at Gulf War 1, the ineptitude of some of the reporting was borderline comedic, I’d wager half of them didn’t even know the difference between a truck with a machine gun on it, and an actual tank. Hell, I remember the journalists running “breaking scoops” about how “woefully underprepared the military was for actual combat”, that aircraft like the F15 was a complete waste of taxpayers dollars(!), the ground war would be Vietnam 2.0, the list went on....granted it wasn’t all inept, but it wa enough to make it a comedy show.

And this reminds me of a piece I need to write up for this, “Media during the Third World War”, which should be a hoot and a half.

 

[Aaron Fox]

I like that idea actually, it works...considering that military journalism, at least back then left a lot to be desired. Look at Gulf War 1, the ineptitude of some of the reporting was borderline comedic, I’d wager half of them didn’t even know the difference between a truck with a machine gun on it, and an actual tank. Hell, I remember the journalists running “breaking scoops” about how “woefully underprepared the military was for actual combat”, that aircraft like the F15 was a complete waste of taxpayers dollars(!), the ground war would be Vietnam 2.0, the list went on....granted it wasn’t all inept, but it wa enough to make it a comedy show.

And this reminds me of a piece I need to write up for this, “Media during the Third World War”, which should be a hoot and a half.

It is looking back on it, it was almost as bad as whenever some idiot decided to repropose the Tillman IV-2 battleship design (i.e. the USN face desking respectively). It also didn't help that fact-checking was relatively new as a journalism institution at the time either.

 

[Husky_Khan]

It'll be interesting to see how this develops. 1987-88 had some interesting things still going on after all, at least in OTL.

The Chadian-Libyan War/Toyota War was still going on and the Chadians were pretty much kicking Libyan arse down at the border.

The Iran-Iraq War is still going on, along with the related Iran-Contra Affair. Along with this was the so-called Tanker War, and deaths of dozens of Iranian pilgrims and Saudi policemen during the riots that took place there.

The Troubles are still going on in Northern Ireland.

The eruption of the First Intifada in Israel/Palestine.

Black Monday for the US Stock Market in 1987.

North Korean agents detonate bombs on a South Korea KAL fight and kill everyone on board.

The Soviet War in Afghanistan is still ongoing.

There are Red Brigade assassinations and kidnappings still going on in Italy.

The 8888 Uprising Occurs in Burma in which thousands are killed.

Osama Bin Laden founds Al Qaeda.

There's ongoing Civil Wars in Mozambique, Guatemala, Sir Lanka, and Zimbabwe plus the Eritrean War of Independence from Ethiopia and the Lebanese Civil War plus widespread insurgencies in places like Pakistan, Somalia and Cambodia and border conflicts between Thailand and Laos and India and China.

 

[Tiamat]

It'll be interesting to see how this develops. 1987-88 had some interesting things still going on after all, at least in OTL.

The Chadian-Libyan War/Toyota War was still going on and the Chadians were pretty much kicking Libyan arse down at the border.

The Iran-Iraq War is still going on, along with the related Iran-Contra Affair. Along with this was the so-called Tanker War, and deaths of dozens of Iranian pilgrims and Saudi policemen during the riots that took place there.

The Troubles are still going on in Northern Ireland.

The eruption of the First Intifada in Israel/Palestine.

Black Monday for the US Stock Market in 1987.

North Korean agents detonate bombs on a South Korea KAL fight and kill everyone on board.

The Soviet War in Afghanistan is still ongoing.

There are Red Brigade assassinations and kidnappings still going on in Italy.

The 8888 Uprising Occurs in Burma in which thousands are killed.

Osama Bin Laden founds Al Qaeda.

There's ongoing Civil Wars in Mozambique, Guatemala, Sir Lanka, and Zimbabwe plus the Eritrean War of Independence from Ethiopia and the Lebanese Civil War plus widespread insurgencies in places like Pakistan, Somalia and Cambodia and border conflicts between Thailand and Laos and India and China.

Indeed it is a very busy time....so much conflict, all waiting for the right spark to happen...

😈

 

[Tiamat]

Well, to further add on that, with the aforementioned conflict between Chad and Libya, France was involved with boots on the ground, albeit in a limited role (officially anyway).

As it turns out, the main reason Mitterrand refused to give the us permission to fly over French airspace during the first go-around with El Dorwdo Canyon was because Reagan just wanted to slap Khaddafi around. Mitterrand wanted Khaddafi out.

So, with Khaddafis continued tomfoolery in Mexico and Americans dead, Reagan’s pissed and ordered commencement of El Dorado Canyon II. This time he wants the USAF and USN to seize the opportunity if possible and bomb wherever Khaddafi is staying, alongside several known terror camps, several docked Libyan naval vessels and Libyan army bases.

Whos not to say the French didn’t share some intel with the Americans this time, and had some DGSE commandos on the ground with some laser designators...?

 

[Aaron Fox]

Well, to further add on that, with the aforementioned conflict between Chad and Libya, France was involved with boots on the ground, albeit in a limited role (officially anyway).

As it turns out, the main reason Mitterrand refused to give the us permission to fly over French airspace during the first go-around with El Dorwdo Canyon was because Reagan just wanted to slap Khaddafi around. Mitterrand wanted Khaddafi out.

So, with Khaddafis continued tomfoolery in Mexico and Americans dead, Reagan’s pissed and ordered commencement of El Dorado Canyon II. This time he wants the USAF and USN to seize the opportunity if possible and bomb wherever Khaddafi is staying, alongside several known terror camps, several docked Libyan naval vessels and Libyan army bases.

Whos not to say the French didn’t share some intel with the Americans this time, and had some DGSE commandos on the ground with some laser designators...?

So... the French would burn a lot of their political credit just to sate their delusions of the 'good old days'? The French know that once the dust settles if they did anything out of nostalgia they'll get screwed at the end of the day. Then again, this is the same France that almost got nothing out of the Marshal Plan because they wanted to keep their empire in its entirety.

 

[Tiamat]

So... the French would burn a lot of their political credit just to sate their delusions of the 'good old days'? The French know that once the dust settles if they did anything out of nostalgia they'll get screwed at the end of the day. Then again, this is the same France that almost got nothing out of the Marshal Plan because they wanted to keep their empire in its entirety.

Here is what the French claimed was their position in regards to the original real life 1986 raids.

FRENCH SAY THEY FAVORED STRONGER ATTACK ON LIBYA (Published 1986)

www.nytimes.com

Something else to bear in mind here, IRL in the late 80s', the Soviets under Gorbachev were starting to quietly distance themselves from Khadaffi as he was coming across as increasingly erratic and unpredictable. Here, where Gorbachev is now sleeping with the fishes and the current Soviet junta don't carry such positive attitudes toward the West? They, somewhat reluctantly keep Khaddafi a bit more close and sell him additional hardware. The same Khaddafi who supported terror attacks against French citizens with all those training camps he has in the desert. The Soviets see Khaddafi as more of a "useful fool" than anything else, and they have a certain plan they wish to carry out when the war comes that will require Khaddafi's assistance. This further spooks the French, because again at the end of the day, the French in spite of their bickering with the Brits and the Yanks, tend to like the current junta now ruling the USSR and their allies a bit rather less, far less in fact as the current junta already said some rather less-than-gentlemen remarks toward the French, seeing them as "the Yankee's pet poodles". And the dirty little secret about Biopreparat is out in the open. And Poland, a country that's somewhat dear to France, is toiling further under the Soviet heel now with political crackdowns, etc. etc.

 

[Scottty]

Hell, I remember the journalists running “breaking scoops” about how “woefully underprepared the military was for actual combat”, that aircraft like the F15 was a complete waste of taxpayers dollars(!), the ground war would be Vietnam 2.0, the list went on....granted it wasn’t all inept, but it wa enough to make it a comedy show.

Anyone else of the opinion that such journalists were a bunch of toxic little leftists who were - perhaps without admitting the motive to themselves - trying to demoralize the West?
Of course in an actual "Soviet troops marched down Wall Street today as the stock market closed forever" scenario, those media types would probably be among the first to be put up against a wall and machine-gunned by the occupiers.

It'll be interesting to see how this develops. 1987-88 had some interesting things still going on after all, at least in OTL.

The Chadian-Libyan War/Toyota War was still going on and the Chadians were pretty much kicking Libyan arse down at the border.

The Iran-Iraq War is still going on, along with the related Iran-Contra Affair. Along with this was the so-called Tanker War, and deaths of dozens of Iranian pilgrims and Saudi policemen during the riots that took place there.

The Troubles are still going on in Northern Ireland.

The eruption of the First Intifada in Israel/Palestine.

Black Monday for the US Stock Market in 1987.

North Korean agents detonate bombs on a South Korea KAL fight and kill everyone on board.

The Soviet War in Afghanistan is still ongoing.

There are Red Brigade assassinations and kidnappings still going on in Italy.

The 8888 Uprising Occurs in Burma in which thousands are killed.

Osama Bin Laden founds Al Qaeda.

There's ongoing Civil Wars in Mozambique, Guatemala, Sir Lanka, and Zimbabwe plus the Eritrean War of Independence from Ethiopia and the Lebanese Civil War plus widespread insurgencies in places like Pakistan, Somalia and Cambodia and border conflicts between Thailand and Laos and India and China.

Funny how much of that stuff all just... stopped when the Soviet Union ended.

 

[Aaron Fox]

Anyone else of the opinion that such journalists were a bunch of toxic little leftists who were - perhaps without admitting the motive to themselves - trying to demoralize the West?
Of course in an actual "Soviet troops marched down Wall Street today as the stock market closed forever" scenario, those media types would probably be among the first to be put up against a wall and machine-gunned by the occupiers.

You've got to remind yourself that back then things like fact-checking and journalism being further degraded by 'only do what the Bosses say to do' spearheaded by FOX News (with a side order of 'military journalism is literally just invented!') didn't exist yet or were just starting out back then.

You also have to remind yourself that by Reagan's time in office, the Rockefeller Republicans -who were a major power block before the Dixies came in during the Reagan administration- were being kicked out of the party by a mixture of Reagan's abysmal economic, social, and later medical policies (there is a reason why even the Bushes consider 'Reagan Economics' Voodoo economics, let alone the damage he did with the AIDS pandemic just to get at the gay people if multiple sources are to be believed).

Funny how much of that stuff all just... stopped when the Soviet Union ended.

Not really actually, at least not all of them. Osama bin Laden would later kick off the War on Terror by not understanding that attacking the US on its own actual soil is only going to get you and your friends killed, the Soviet's Vietnam (aka Afghanistan) was winding down by '89 and likely accelerated in this timeline because the situation is worse than the US in Vietnam (at least the US in Vietnam had some control of the rural areas, the USSR literally didn't have any sort of control whatsoever of Afghanistan's rural areas), the First Intifada was not backed by the Soviets for it being a hot mess and the Palestinians being considered uncontrollable (although it didn't stop the USSR's Arab puppets in the area from convincing themselves otherwise), the Iran-Iraq War was more or less a glorified sideshow with an incredibly likely possibility Saudi Arabia pumping oodles of money into Iraq to keep Iran out of the peninsula...