WI: Matzen and Schoonebeek Oil Fields discovered, 1938-1940

stevep

Well-known member
DAK was a sideshow for Hitler and Rommel was forced to make use of limited numbers of Panzer IIIs and IVs, as most of the armor available were shitty Italian tanks that were even worse.
Panzer IIIs for the most part armed with the 5cm KwK 38 L/42, incapable of taking on the Matilda head on. 5cm KwK 39 only started arrive in early 1942.
Panzer IVs used the short barreled 7.5cm KwK 37 L/24, even less capable than the 5cm KwK 38 L/42. The long 75, the 7.5cm KwK 40 L/43 only appeared on the Panzer IV after April 1942.

On the other hand, the 40mm gun of the Matilda could pierce through the 3-5cm of front armor the Panzer IIIs and IVs had.
Not odds I would like to face.

There are numerous arguments on both sides as to whom had the best tanks and equipment with it appears that each thought the other was the better equipped. The key problems for the British were that theirs were poorly used and Churchill's erratic behaviour, especially insisting on attacks before commanders were ready and frequently stripping away units for what were largely side-shows/lost causes such as Italian E Africa and Greece.

Since you mention Operation Crusader.
Allies took heavy tank losses during the battle and almost lost the battle itself.

Allies had 738 tanks at Crusader compared to Axis just under 400 tanks.
Let's say that those 300 tanks take the long way round the Cape.
Rommel would have overrun Tobruk, leading to an earlier and possibly Axis victory at El Alamein.

Rommel had failed repeatedly to take Tobruk even without those tanks. They just take longer to arrive, which might mean no Operation Crusader as the storm in the east develops and forces are needed to fight the Japanese.


Hitler's greatest mistake was not using Vichy France to his advantage, especially after Mers El Kabir.
Whole other topic, though there is an oil pipeline running from the iraqi fields to a syria port back then.
Axis take the Med and then march into the Mideast.

Coming from the same guy who left Singapore, Malaya, and Hong Kong to their fate when it was clear the Japanese were going to strike.

Are you aware of how many forces the allies committed to SE Asia? The problem being that because Britain was too badly stretched - partly due to earlier errors partly due to having to fight alone on so many fronts - the units based in the east were poorly equipped and led and those sent as reinforcements were often too late, without time to adjust. To be fair to Churchill on that last one it was the Aussie government insisting on the 18th div [IIRC] going into Singapore just in time to surrender while Churchill wanted them diverted to Burma where they might have had a much greater impact and possibly even saved the colony which could have had some major impacts on the following conflict in the region.


Axis can counter using flak trucks.
Two flak trucks with 2cm Flakvierlings covered by big tarps in every convoy.
Instant death for any Allied plane.

Should have shipped more flak guns to the DAK, they can be used to wipe out infantry, the 2cm probably had enough AP to destroy light tanks and armored cars and defend the skies as well.
A convoy of covered Flakvierling trucks would be the ultimate trap.

I suspect your over-estimating their effectiveness but even so that's beside the point. My argument was that the Axis couldn't practically support the mass of a/c in the western desert that they had in S Italy.

By convoy do you mean truck convoys from Tripoli to the front or actual sea convoys? Not sure how effective land based AA units would have been in the latter against air attack.

Steve
 
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sillygoose

Well-known member
Was looking through my PDFs and I found a US military doc about the role of German Pioneres in WW2.
The Brandenburgers at the time were known as the Besonderen Verwendung 100.
"The failure of the Besonderen Verwendung to seize the Meuse River bridges became painfully clear when all three of the bridges “blew up into the air in front of advanced units of the 4th Panzer Division.”64"
Bridges across the Meuse were all successfully destroyed by the Dutch.
Except for the rail bridge you mentioned. And you're only talking about what was in front of a single division, not the entire front.
2)During the Invasion of the west, the Brandenburger took strategic important bridges at Maaseik, Gennep, Berg, Uromon, Obicht in Belgium and the Netherlands etc. They took over the sealocks and Bridges at Nieuwport in Belgium.
 

History Learner

Well-known member
Reflecting on it, I think the main differences would become apparent in 1941 with much lower rates of vehicle loss in Russia combined with slightly higher production. There is a chance AGS might not over-extend itself as much either in the Ukraine, since there would be less of an emphasis to try to go after the Caucasus in 1941; so no Rostov, and perhaps the Soviet effort to relieve Crimea is defeated from the onset, instead of requiring operations in 1942? If no, then definitely in 1942 we will see our first serious effects in terms of geo-strategic impact.

For the sake of simplicity, assuming the latter outcome as described above, Case Blue will proceed as planned OTL but with a much stronger logistical support base. Arguably more important, as pointed out earlier, Hitler and OKH stick to their phased plans which sees Stalingrad fall in late July/early August. Army Group B is thus saved from that combat, enabling it to spread out its air support and armored forces to clear out its flanks, anchoring them on river lines and depriving the Red Army of the positions it needed for its winter counter-attacks. Army Group A, meanwhile, will still take Maikop I suspect and perhaps Grozny here too; they will have less time before the winter, but have stronger logistics compared to OTL. Regardless of that, the Germans will hold their positions over the Winter of 1942-1943 and then begin clearing them out of any lingering Red Army presence in the early Spring.

My expectations for 1943 are that, with AGS reinforced by II SS Panzer Korps, the Germans will take Astrakhan and finish clearing the Caucasus, including taking Baku. Such completely shuts down the Persian Lend Lease route, a very large portion of the remaining Soviet food production and, finally, 80-90% of their oil sources. That alone is fatal, as it leaves the Red Army incapable of offensive action throughout the year and then come the fall, when the crop blights occur in the Urals, a famine will be the inevitable result. Either the Red Army will be starved, the workers supplying it or mutually; the end result, however, would be the same. Elsewhere on the front, I'd predict AGN would launch operations to finally take Leningrad and AGC might, if the conditions are good, do some minor operations to straighten out its own lines.

End result of this is the gradual collapse and disintegration of the Red Army and USSR as a whole in 1943-1944; I'd suspect the Germans can take the A-A Line by the Fall of 1944. With that established, what about the West? I doubt much in the way changes until 1942, just like with the Eastern Front, but then things will start to rapidly diverge from OTL. For one, it is likely the Germans and Italians will finally make their play for Malta. To quote Avalanche Press:

The fall of Tobruk left the Axis on the horns of a dilemma. The plan had been to consolidate the position in the desert after the capture of the fortress and use the time thus spent to take the island of Malta by air and amphibious assault. The British defeat seemed so overwhelming (and it was) to Erwin Rommel, that the Desert Fox became convinced an immediate pursuit of the routed Eighth Army could capture the Nile delta and unhinge the British defense in the Middle East. He demanded the air and logistics support that would come with deferment of the assault on Malta, reasoning, not unrealistically, that the fall of the British base in the delta would leave the island to starve and ultimately surrender.​

One major benefit that comes here from the fuel situation is that the Italian Navy can be more active, because IOTL it only planned a very limited bombardment due to fuel constraints; here, those would likely not exist. Besides the fall of Malta greatly improving Rommel's logistics throughout the rest of 1942, the loss of the island and Italian Navy being a more real than apparent threat, it's likely Operation Torch would be limited solely to landings in Morocco out of concern of Axis opposition. This means Darlan would not be captured and thus the Vichy likely fight on the side of the Axis, meaning North Africa likely lasts as an active theater into late 1943. From there, as long as Malta remains in Axis hands no operation can be undertaken against Sicily or Sardinia. By the time the Allies could do such, the USSR would clearly be in a state of collapse and thus operations on the continent would be out of the question due to the military and political realities afoot from the aforementioned event.

In my estimate? An Armistice in 1944.
 

stevep

Well-known member
Reflecting on it, I think the main differences would become apparent in 1941 with much lower rates of vehicle loss in Russia combined with slightly higher production. There is a chance AGS might not over-extend itself as much either in the Ukraine, since there would be less of an emphasis to try to go after the Caucasus in 1941; so no Rostov, and perhaps the Soviet effort to relieve Crimea is defeated from the onset, instead of requiring operations in 1942? If no, then definitely in 1942 we will see our first serious effects in terms of geo-strategic impact.

For the sake of simplicity, assuming the latter outcome as described above, Case Blue will proceed as planned OTL but with a much stronger logistical support base. Arguably more important, as pointed out earlier, Hitler and OKH stick to their phased plans which sees Stalingrad fall in late July/early August. Army Group B is thus saved from that combat, enabling it to spread out its air support and armored forces to clear out its flanks, anchoring them on river lines and depriving the Red Army of the positions it needed for its winter counter-attacks. Army Group A, meanwhile, will still take Maikop I suspect and perhaps Grozny here too; they will have less time before the winter, but have stronger logistics compared to OTL. Regardless of that, the Germans will hold their positions over the Winter of 1942-1943 and then begin clearing them out of any lingering Red Army presence in the early Spring.

My expectations for 1943 are that, with AGS reinforced by II SS Panzer Korps, the Germans will take Astrakhan and finish clearing the Caucasus, including taking Baku. Such completely shuts down the Persian Lend Lease route, a very large portion of the remaining Soviet food production and, finally, 80-90% of their oil sources. That alone is fatal, as it leaves the Red Army incapable of offensive action throughout the year and then come the fall, when the crop blights occur in the Urals, a famine will be the inevitable result. Either the Red Army will be starved, the workers supplying it or mutually; the end result, however, would be the same. Elsewhere on the front, I'd predict AGN would launch operations to finally take Leningrad and AGC might, if the conditions are good, do some minor operations to straighten out its own lines.

End result of this is the gradual collapse and disintegration of the Red Army and USSR as a whole in 1943-1944; I'd suspect the Germans can take the A-A Line by the Fall of 1944. With that established, what about the West? I doubt much in the way changes until 1942, just like with the Eastern Front, but then things will start to rapidly diverge from OTL. For one, it is likely the Germans and Italians will finally make their play for Malta. To quote Avalanche Press:

The fall of Tobruk left the Axis on the horns of a dilemma. The plan had been to consolidate the position in the desert after the capture of the fortress and use the time thus spent to take the island of Malta by air and amphibious assault. The British defeat seemed so overwhelming (and it was) to Erwin Rommel, that the Desert Fox became convinced an immediate pursuit of the routed Eighth Army could capture the Nile delta and unhinge the British defense in the Middle East. He demanded the air and logistics support that would come with deferment of the assault on Malta, reasoning, not unrealistically, that the fall of the British base in the delta would leave the island to starve and ultimately surrender.​

One major benefit that comes here from the fuel situation is that the Italian Navy can be more active, because IOTL it only planned a very limited bombardment due to fuel constraints; here, those would likely not exist. Besides the fall of Malta greatly improving Rommel's logistics throughout the rest of 1942, the loss of the island and Italian Navy being a more real than apparent threat, it's likely Operation Torch would be limited solely to landings in Morocco out of concern of Axis opposition. This means Darlan would not be captured and thus the Vichy likely fight on the side of the Axis, meaning North Africa likely lasts as an active theater into late 1943. From there, as long as Malta remains in Axis hands no operation can be undertaken against Sicily or Sardinia. By the time the Allies could do such, the USSR would clearly be in a state of collapse and thus operations on the continent would be out of the question due to the military and political realities afoot from the aforementioned event.

In my estimate? An Armistice in 1944.

Assuming your beliefs on greater German logistical capacity are valid then Russia will be a lot weaker and if they lose Baku that will be a serious blow to the Soviets, although Germany are unlikely to get much out of it in the near term. One interesting option here is that the allies make a major effort through Iran to keep Baku out of German hands and also maintain the supply link via Iran. Even without it there are still going to be considerable capacity inside Russia east of the A-A line, backed as it will be by the US and the occupation of such a vast area is going to tie down massive German resources.

I'm far less confident about an armistice in 44. For one thing the allies would be stupid to risk this, especially as they won't realise how fragile the Nazi economy is. For another Hitler would have believed he's won so why would he make any concessions? Which would be necessary for any peace settlement. The US might have to decide to bite the bullet of a massed army on European scale unless their having more success with the air campaign say.

NA will be cleared even if the Torch operation is even more restricted than OTL. True Darlan won't be captured but not sure how long most of the French would support the Germans in this postion and the allied advantage in firepower is likely to be pretty drastic. As you say there is likely to be a need to liberate Malta before going onto Sicily although its possibly that the allies might go for the Balkans which have considerable advantages for them. Even more in this scenario than OTL. But i would still suggest clearing Sicily, Sardinia and preferably southern Italy 1st.

Steve
 

sillygoose

Well-known member
Assuming your beliefs on greater German logistical capacity are valid then Russia will be a lot weaker and if they lose Baku that will be a serious blow to the Soviets, although Germany are unlikely to get much out of it in the near term. One interesting option here is that the allies make a major effort through Iran to keep Baku out of German hands and also maintain the supply link via Iran. Even without it there are still going to be considerable capacity inside Russia east of the A-A line, backed as it will be by the US and the occupation of such a vast area is going to tie down massive German resources.
The only problem with this theory is the lack of arable land. The Soviets nearly starved out in 1942 and with greater losses and no recovery of Kuban and Ukraine they will likely collapse due to lack of food.
Good books on that topic (warning highly depressing subject):





If the links don't work for you the first one is called "Hunger and War" the second "A Taste of War". The first is about Soviet food provisioning in WW2 and the second about food supplies in WW2 for everyone with a good chapter on the Soviet situation.

Lend Lease was no where near enough to cover the gap; even in 1944 after LL had kicked into high gear and Ukraine and Kuban were recovered there was still large numbers of deaths due to starvation and nutritional deficiencies including among factory workers.
 

stevep

Well-known member
The only problem with this theory is the lack of arable land. The Soviets nearly starved out in 1942 and with greater losses and no recovery of Kuban and Ukraine they will likely collapse due to lack of food.
Good books on that topic (warning highly depressing subject):





If the links don't work for you the first one is called "Hunger and War" the second "A Taste of War". The first is about Soviet food provisioning in WW2 and the second about food supplies in WW2 for everyone with a good chapter on the Soviet situation.

Lend Lease was no where near enough to cover the gap; even in 1944 after LL had kicked into high gear and Ukraine and Kuban were recovered there was still large numbers of deaths due to starvation and nutritional deficiencies including among factory workers.


Sillygoose

Couldn't see the image again but checking on Amazon I see:
Hunger and War -
Hunger and War: Food Provisioning in the Soviet Union during World War II - by Wendy Z. Goldman and Donald A. Filtzer | 22 Apr 2015

TASTE OF WAR: Eyewitness Accounts of World War II Hardcover – 1 April 2000
by Harold E. Straubing (Author)

Assume those are the ones your referring to. May be some time before I get around to them but sounds like alterned L-L wouldn't be as effective as I was thinking. That would be a major issue for the size of any continued Soviet opposition if the Germans have the suggested success. The 1st sounds like the most useful to get on this issue. Many thanks.

Steve
 

sillygoose

Well-known member
Sillygoose

Couldn't see the image again but checking on Amazon I see:
Hunger and War -
Hunger and War: Food Provisioning in the Soviet Union during World War II - by Wendy Z. Goldman and Donald A. Filtzer | 22 Apr 2015

TASTE OF WAR: Eyewitness Accounts of World War II Hardcover – 1 April 2000
by Harold E. Straubing (Author)

Assume those are the ones your referring to. May be some time before I get around to them but sounds like alterned L-L wouldn't be as effective as I was thinking. That would be a major issue for the size of any continued Soviet opposition if the Germans have the suggested success. The 1st sounds like the most useful to get on this issue. Many thanks.

Steve
The first is right, second is a different book.
This is the one I meant:
The Taste of War: World War Two and the Battle for Food
by Collingham Lizzie (Author)

L-L was extremely valuable but that was maxed out at just about every point in the war given infrastructure and transport limitations, so the Soviets needed their resources fully mobilized. Things were much worse than was let on or admitted to post-war and in reading the above books it is truly unimaginable what the Soviet people suffered in those desperate years.

"Soviet-boos" have become too common in these discussions wherein they minimize the role of LL and overestimate Soviet internal economic capabilities based on very surface readings of the war, I guess by looking at the outcome and situation in 1945 and reading it backwards. The USSR was balanced on a knife edge in 1942 and were incredibly close to collapse, which makes their recovery all the more remarkable and admirable. It also makes the brutality of the Soviet regime and war effort much more understandable as well as their paranoia in the Cold War about Western intentions and threats.

Unfortunately the understandable Soviet reluctance to (if not desire to actively distort) accurately describe what happened in the war has created a ton of myths about what happened and what would have been possible in ATLs.

Happy to share sources, hope they are valuable to you. Yes the first is more relevant than the second, but both have their value IMHO. They, at least to me, demonstrate that the food situation was more than 'a major issue' for continued resistance had the Soviets not had their military successes in early 1943. And remember that was with Moscow being held in 1941. If it had been lost in 1941 and not recovered then the Soviets are fatally wounded due to the heavy loss of irreplaceable industries in the region.

There is a reason Operation Eisenhammer targeted the Moscow region, since it was the center of high tech military industries for which there was no replacement anywhere else in the USSR. Think optics, trucks and tank engine production, all sorts of aviation related things, etc. I'll have to look up the details in the plan in a book I have that covers the planning details of the operation where it lists all the industries in the Moscow region that would be knocked out by the bombing if you really want.
Plus pre-war it had something like 10% of the entire industry in the country just in the city and Moscow Oblast, not counting Gorki or Yaroslavl, as well as major iron and IIRC some coal deposits. If Leningrad falls then the bauxite deposits and refineries for aluminum would have been permanently lost as well, which means no recovery of those resources later on.
 

Sixgun McGurk

Well-known member
Germany could have won with just enough oil. If Japan saw the SU starving and militarily faltering in mid 42, the Korean and Manchuko armies may have gone for the Soviet Far East, shutting off lend lease. Especially if the good oil news from Germany gave them the ambition to look harder and they actually found the huge oil fields in Manchuria. The prospect of the Soviet Union falling would quickly see Churchill sent back to Chartwell to build walls and FDR forced into a Pacific First policy. In that case President Lindbergh opens talks with Germany in 44 and the war ends with the destruction of the IJN and the recapture of the Philippines.

It could really have gone the Nazi way with truck driven logistics to bring method to the chaotic disorder on the Eastern Front. With fuel, the industrial contribution of Citroen trucks alone could have put them over the top.
 

BlackDragon98

Freikorps Kommandant
Banned - Politics
Germany could have won with just enough oil. If Japan saw the SU starving and militarily faltering in mid 42, the Korean and Manchuko armies may have gone for the Soviet Far East, shutting off lend lease.
I kind of doubt that.
Transferring forces to Manchuria would mean a reduction on the Chinese front.
KMT takes the opportunity to strike.

Especially if the good oil news from Germany gave them the ambition to look harder and they actually found the huge oil fields in Manchuria. The prospect of the Soviet Union falling would quickly see Churchill sent back to Chartwell to build walls and FDR forced into a Pacific First policy. In that case President Lindbergh opens talks with Germany in 44 and the war ends with the destruction of the IJN and the recapture of the Philippines.
Germany sends oil technicians to Japan?

It could really have gone the Nazi way with truck driven logistics to bring method to the chaotic disorder on the Eastern Front. With fuel, the industrial contribution of Citroen trucks alone could have put them over the top.
Citroen trucks were sabotaged.
Mercedes Benz diesel trucks are the way.
Mercedes-Benz L3000 - Wikipedia
 

sillygoose

Well-known member
Citroen trucks were sabotaged.
Mercedes Benz diesel trucks are the way.
Mercedes-Benz L3000 - Wikipedia
IIRC there was an issue with manufacturing capacity since MB also manufactured one of the most important Luftwaffe aero-engines. I have a book about the history of the company in WW2, so will have to check it out some time to see what that issue was. Getting other companies to make it would have been an issue as well given the differences in tooling that would have been required as well as potential issues in manufacturing methods that companies may or may not have had experience with.

The German army did tried a 'unified military truck' design pre-war, which did not end up working out:
In part because the manufacturers lacked capacity among myriad of other issues. The US had more luck given how large their industry was pre-war (largest in the world by far), while Germany's pre-war economy which was more focused on custom projects and niche markets and not set up for World War level manufacturing. Volkswagen was supposed to help solve that problem, but then it wasn't ready for production by 1939 (the war was supposed to start in 1942) and no industrial mobilization scheme had yet been worked out for the entire economy, so VW ended up getting stuck making odds and ends as a subcontractor since they didn't have their lines ready for anything more substantial yet.
 

History Learner

Well-known member
Assuming your beliefs on greater German logistical capacity are valid then Russia will be a lot weaker and if they lose Baku that will be a serious blow to the Soviets, although Germany are unlikely to get much out of it in the near term. One interesting option here is that the allies make a major effort through Iran to keep Baku out of German hands and also maintain the supply link via Iran. Even without it there are still going to be considerable capacity inside Russia east of the A-A line, backed as it will be by the US and the occupation of such a vast area is going to tie down massive German resources.

Adam Tooze, citing Wehrmact reports, found that most of the motor vehicle losses in the USSR in 1941 were due to mishandling, in particular accidents, instead of enemy action. With a much better trained driver cadre, a lot of these losses will thus be avoided and the Germans would also avert their late 1941 production stoppages; if that doesn't have an effect on 1941 operations, it definitely will by 1942 because you have thousands-if not tens of thousands-of trucks and their lift capacity saved with all that entails to supporting Case Blue, particularly Army Group A in the Caucasus where the railways were lacking.

Honestly though, such is not the most decisive factor in my estimation, although it is certainly a bonus. The main issue is the change in German strategic actions, as pointed out repeatedly now. The original concept of operations envisioned the Germans doing Case Blue in phases, with the first three designed to destroy Soviet forces, securing the flanks as well as the city of Stalingrad before pushing into the Caucasus. Hitler, in his desperation for oil, completely disregarded this plan by July in order to get oil quickly. Here, such constraints aren't in existence because the fuel situation is much better. Given such, Hitler will stick to the plan and the Germans will thus not be overstretched and thus able to fend off any Soviet counter-attacks.

If the A-A Line is achieved in 1944, the USSR is dead, no question. Leningrad, Moscow, Gorky and the like are gone; there is no industry, manpower, fuel or food to maintain the State, nevermind the Army. As for the German side of the equation, even as late as 1944, 150 Divisions were in the East; such a strategic position would free up easily 50 of these. Likewise, as @sillygoose already pointed out, the Germans got Maikop restored faster than previously though so it is very likely they could get Baku in operation in 1943, if not 1944. On the Western Allied side, what resources are available in 1942 or 1943 for that matter? There are none, to be frank, and the British in particular knew this.

I'm far less confident about an armistice in 44. For one thing the allies would be stupid to risk this, especially as they won't realise how fragile the Nazi economy is. For another Hitler would have believed he's won so why would he make any concessions? Which would be necessary for any peace settlement. The US might have to decide to bite the bullet of a massed army on European scale unless their having more success with the air campaign say.

If the USSR has collapsed, the Nazi Economy would be the strongest it's ever been with the resources of the conquered East fueling it in a way that didn't occur IOTL. On the Allied end, all of their strategic documents from WWII make it clear they would seek peace if the Germans beat the Russians because they could not defeat the Nazis without the USSR (and vice versa, for the record). The Germans need not make any concessions, nor would Hitler have any reason to fight on; he will have achieved his territorial aims in Europe and in 1940 he was interested on peace with the British on those terms anyway.

The U.S. cannot do any massed land army without making peace with Japan or foregoing said air campaign; the entire reason for the 90 Division gamble IOTL was to free up manpower for the naval and air might necessary to wage war against Japan as well as fight the Germans with a prolonged strategic bombing campaign. You can either have war with Japan and strategic bombing, or you can have an Army sufficient to fight the Germans without the USSR; you cannot have both. Knowing how the U.S. public thought in WWII, making peace with Japan to send millions into a meat grinder in Europe is politically untenable in the extreme.

NA will be cleared even if the Torch operation is even more restricted than OTL. True Darlan won't be captured but not sure how long most of the French would support the Germans in this postion and the allied advantage in firepower is likely to be pretty drastic. As you say there is likely to be a need to liberate Malta before going onto Sicily although its possibly that the allies might go for the Balkans which have considerable advantages for them. Even more in this scenario than OTL. But i would still suggest clearing Sicily, Sardinia and preferably southern Italy 1st.

Steve

I agree that with a restricted Torch, they can still clear North Africa. They cannot, however, commit to operations in the Middle East and clear North Africa, though. There is no possibility whatsoever of the Balkans, however; the U.S. rejected that out of hand IOTL for logistical and political reasons, as well as basic military sense. Most likely North Africa here will take until late 1943/early 1944. By that time, the Germans will have dozens of freed divisions so anything in continental Europe is out of the question, although the Anglo-Americans can use their naval and airpower to force them out of Malta still.
 
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sillygoose

Well-known member
Likewise, as @sillygoose already pointed out, the Germans got Maikop restored faster than previously though so it is very likely they could get Baku in operation in 1943, if not 1944. On the Western Allied side, what resources are available in 1942 or 1943 for that matter? There are none, to be frank, and the British in particular knew this.
Just a little modification to the above: Maikop was less destroyed than claimed, so it technically never ceased production and enough fuel was captured intact that they could use that locally for a while too instead of subsisting on very existing limited production. Probably more interesting was the lack of effort to repair it quickly since exporting it was impossible and instead local forces and other needs got fuel from it and a mobile refinery was even brought in to that end.

Baku would be a more difficult prospect to repair and more easily destroyed and perhaps bombed from Iran by the Wallies, who were planning on doing that if the Germans took the city/oilfield. Given how oil soaked the land was it was an open gas can waiting for a match. Grozny is the real prize because it was more than enough to satisfy German needs, far enough away from Iran to be protectable, and close enough to Maikop to move out oil eventually. Especially if it could be captured mostly intact, which there was some reason to think it might have been if the advance more rapid.

As to Allied bombers, HALPRO initially started out IIRC as a unit tasked with this operation but moved on to Ploesti after Baku was saved. It was based in the Middle East by mid-1942 and had B24s as I recall.
 

History Learner

Well-known member
Just a little modification to the above: Maikop was less destroyed than claimed, so it technically never ceased production and enough fuel was captured intact that they could use that locally for a while too instead of subsisting on very existing limited production. Probably more interesting was the lack of effort to repair it quickly since exporting it was impossible and instead local forces and other needs got fuel from it and a mobile refinery was even brought in to that end.

Baku would be a more difficult prospect to repair and more easily destroyed and perhaps bombed from Iran by the Wallies, who were planning on doing that if the Germans took the city/oilfield. Given how oil soaked the land was it was an open gas can waiting for a match. Grozny is the real prize because it was more than enough to satisfy German needs, far enough away from Iran to be protectable, and close enough to Maikop to move out oil eventually. Especially if it could be captured mostly intact, which there was some reason to think it might have been if the advance more rapid.

As to Allied bombers, HALPRO initially started out IIRC as a unit tasked with this operation but moved on to Ploesti after Baku was saved. It was based in the Middle East by mid-1942 and had B24s as I recall.

What's the air bases they could use? Honestly, that would a German benefit; if the Soviets have sabotaged Baku anyway, the USAAF wasting effort on it while enabling the Germans to use Ploesti unmolested is a serious benefit.
 

BlackDragon98

Freikorps Kommandant
Banned - Politics
IIRC there was an issue with manufacturing capacity since MB also manufactured one of the most important Luftwaffe aero-engines. I have a book about the history of the company in WW2, so will have to check it out some time to see what that issue was. Getting other companies to make it would have been an issue as well given the differences in tooling that would have been required as well as potential issues in manufacturing methods that companies may or may not have had experience with.
That's not a problem.
Just take a look at the production numbers for the RSO.
Steyr, the company that designed it, only made 2600 specimens, while the rest were all made by other companies.
Germany doesn't have this kind of problem.
It's just a matter of getting enough tools and jigs.

Volkswagen was supposed to help solve that problem, but then it wasn't ready for production by 1939 (the war was supposed to start in 1942) and no industrial mobilization scheme had yet been worked out for the entire economy, so VW ended up getting stuck making odds and ends as a subcontractor since they didn't have their lines ready for anything more substantial yet.
They did help solve the problem
Only problem is that they didn't start work on it in 1934.
The Kubelwagen was fully capable of towing the Pak 36 and the 75mm light infantry gun.
 
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stevep

Well-known member
The first is right, second is a different book.
This is the one I meant:
The Taste of War: World War Two and the Battle for Food
by Collingham Lizzie (Author)

L-L was extremely valuable but that was maxed out at just about every point in the war given infrastructure and transport limitations, so the Soviets needed their resources fully mobilized. Things were much worse than was let on or admitted to post-war and in reading the above books it is truly unimaginable what the Soviet people suffered in those desperate years.

"Soviet-boos" have become too common in these discussions wherein they minimize the role of LL and overestimate Soviet internal economic capabilities based on very surface readings of the war, I guess by looking at the outcome and situation in 1945 and reading it backwards. The USSR was balanced on a knife edge in 1942 and were incredibly close to collapse, which makes their recovery all the more remarkable and admirable. It also makes the brutality of the Soviet regime and war effort much more understandable as well as their paranoia in the Cold War about Western intentions and threats.

Unfortunately the understandable Soviet reluctance to (if not desire to actively distort) accurately describe what happened in the war has created a ton of myths about what happened and what would have been possible in ATLs.

Happy to share sources, hope they are valuable to you. Yes the first is more relevant than the second, but both have their value IMHO. They, at least to me, demonstrate that the food situation was more than 'a major issue' for continued resistance had the Soviets not had their military successes in early 1943. And remember that was with Moscow being held in 1941. If it had been lost in 1941 and not recovered then the Soviets are fatally wounded due to the heavy loss of irreplaceable industries in the region.

There is a reason Operation Eisenhammer targeted the Moscow region, since it was the center of high tech military industries for which there was no replacement anywhere else in the USSR. Think optics, trucks and tank engine production, all sorts of aviation related things, etc. I'll have to look up the details in the plan in a book I have that covers the planning details of the operation where it lists all the industries in the Moscow region that would be knocked out by the bombing if you really want.
Plus pre-war it had something like 10% of the entire industry in the country just in the city and Moscow Oblast, not counting Gorki or Yaroslavl, as well as major iron and IIRC some coal deposits. If Leningrad falls then the bauxite deposits and refineries for aluminum would have been permanently lost as well, which means no recovery of those resources later on.

Thanks for that info. When I searched I did see the Collingham book but it didn't sound like it covered the relevant area from the brief description so a slightly deeper look found the other one. Will update my list.

Steve
 

stevep

Well-known member
Adam Tooze, citing Wehrmact reports, found that most of the motor vehicle losses in the USSR in 1941 were due to mishandling, in particular accidents, instead of enemy action. With a much better trained driver cadre, a lot of these losses will thus be avoided and the Germans would also avert their late 1941 production stoppages; if that doesn't have an effect on 1941 operations, it definitely will by 1942 because you have thousands-if not tens of thousands-of trucks and their lift capacity saved with all that entails to supporting Case Blue, particularly Army Group A in the Caucasus where the railways were lacking.

Can't remember that off-hand but could well be wrong. Could this be a reference to the appalling quality of many of the roads even before the late autumn floods? He does comment on how impractical the 1941 campaign was due to the massively over-stretched logistics. Which wasn't primarily anything to do with the number of trucks the German forces had. More simply with the sheer distances involved over which a vehicle can carry loads before the total load is needed for the pettrol to get it to that point. There was a reason why the German battle plans relied on defeating the Red Army west of the Dnieper and Dvina. Additional oil won't make a great difference to that.

Also you seem to be assuming that Germany having more fuel automatically means they have more trucks. Not the case. Those additional vehicles have to be constructed - which means money, trained manpower and industrial capacity and raw materials. Germany was operating at the limit for much of the 1930's in terms of its breakneck expansion so if its going to double the number of military trucks what will it give up?

Furthermore a lot more trucks means a lot more people to operate and support them. Possibly not a great deal in terms of drivers once trained given how many men Germany conscripted but the mechanics and other maintenance staff will need pretty well trained men that somewhere else won't have.


Honestly though, such is not the most decisive factor in my estimation, although it is certainly a bonus. The main issue is the change in German strategic actions, as pointed out repeatedly now. The original concept of operations envisioned the Germans doing Case Blue in phases, with the first three designed to destroy Soviet forces, securing the flanks as well as the city of Stalingrad before pushing into the Caucasus. Hitler, in his desperation for oil, completely disregarded this plan by July in order to get oil quickly. Here, such constraints aren't in existence because the fuel situation is much better. Given such, Hitler will stick to the plan and the Germans will thus not be overstretched and thus able to fend off any Soviet counter-attacks.

They can probably take Stalingrad, if Hitler doesn't get impatient as OTL, which a stronger transport force if it can be assembled might still prompt him to do. Its still going to be very costly however and the Soviets might prolong the battle by pumping in more forces, albeit this would reduce its forces for any counter attack.

Its still a very strong distance to travel over difficult terrain to get to Baku, let alone capture its ruins. Such forces also would need to be maintained and supported, which would consume a lot of additional transport. Their also going to have even longer lines to defend now so its unclear that they will be able to resist at least one large Soviet counter attack. As it is OTL Army Group A, which was directed towards Baku, was under peril for some time after the hammer fell at Stalingrad because Hitler refused to give up on the ground gained. There is an argument that if the Soviets hadn't over-estimated the forces in the Stalingrad pocket they could have driven for Rostov earlier and threatened the entire Army Group. Escape would still be possible via the Crimean as long as the Germans hold Novorossisk but an advance on that would be a possibility as well.


If the A-A Line is achieved in 1944, the USSR is dead, no question. Leningrad, Moscow, Gorky and the like are gone; there is no industry, manpower, fuel or food to maintain the State, nevermind the Army. As for the German side of the equation, even as late as 1944, 150 Divisions were in the East; such a strategic position would free up easily 50 of these. Likewise, as @sillygoose already pointed out, the Germans got Maikop restored faster than previously though so it is very likely they could get Baku in operation in 1943, if not 1944. On the Western Allied side, what resources are available in 1942 or 1943 for that matter? There are none, to be frank, and the British in particular knew this.

The USSR is gravely weakened but there are still resources, manpower and industrial east of that point and they have no reason to stop fighting. Given the nature of the Nazi regime continued resistance is their only option, as it is for many in the huge area Germany now has to control. Germany can withdraw some forces but there's going to be a huge manpower and material demand especially since casualties are still likely to be far from trivial in the east, albeit not the massive level of OTL.

In terms of forces available then there was an army group Britain established in the Iraq/Iran area in 42 in case the Germans reached the Baku region, which I doubt they would do until in 43 under the circumstances. This actually had more divisions than Montgomery had in the 2nd El Alamein battle according to one source, although I suspect the quality of equipment/experience might be lower. In the longer term everything the US army sent to Britain in 42 and 43 is theoretically available as well as some British forces. Especially if a large scale collapse of the Soviets mean that no invasion of France is practical then fight them where their at a huge logistical disadvantage such as the Caucasus region.


If the USSR has collapsed, the Nazi Economy would be the strongest it's ever been with the resources of the conquered East fueling it in a way that didn't occur IOTL. On the Allied end, all of their strategic documents from WWII make it clear they would seek peace if the Germans beat the Russians because they could not defeat the Nazis without the USSR (and vice versa, for the record). The Germans need not make any concessions, nor would Hitler have any reason to fight on; he will have achieved his territorial aims in Europe and in 1940 he was interested on peace with the British on those terms anyway.

That assumes it can extract them in between slaughtering the inhabitants and generally messing things up as it did OTL. It still has serious resource limitations and extacting materials from a war torn wasteland won't be easy. More resources but not massively so especially since those raw materials have to be dragged back to Germany.

The U.S. cannot do any massed land army without making peace with Japan or foregoing said air campaign; the entire reason for the 90 Division gamble IOTL was to free up manpower for the naval and air might necessary to wage war against Japan as well as fight the Germans with a prolonged strategic bombing campaign. You can either have war with Japan and strategic bombing, or you can have an Army sufficient to fight the Germans without the USSR; you cannot have both. Knowing how the U.S. public thought in WWII, making peace with Japan to send millions into a meat grinder in Europe is politically untenable in the extreme.

That seems unlikely to put it mildly. By last 43 the war in the Pacific is largely won, although not clear to all. The B-29 campaign in 1945 was an additional nail in the coffin for the Japanese economy but reducing the front to 2ndary status and slowly wearing them down is possible. As is freeing up resources by only making one rather than two main thrusts. As you say Germany is even more than OTL the primary threat so full concentration should be on it.

Even the strategic bombing campaign in Europe is of dubious merit given the resources consumed, so there is potential, if the will is there in Washington, for continuing to fight in Europe. If you accept a peace with Hitler in charge of the continent up to the Caucasus's and the A-A line then you would need to maintain sizeable forces to prevent him grabbing more at a time of his choosing so it would be a very heavily armed peace. However from what I have seen mentioned it was the B-29 that was the huge resource pit that made the Americans decide not to go for a larger army.


I agree that with a restricted Torch, they can still clear North Africa. They cannot, however, commit to operations in the Middle East and clear North Africa, though. There is no possibility whatsoever of the Balkans, however; the U.S. rejected that out of hand IOTL for logistical and political reasons, as well as basic military sense. Most likely North Africa here will take until late 1943/early 1944. By that time, the Germans will have dozens of freed divisions so anything in continental Europe is out of the question, although the Anglo-Americans can use their naval and airpower to force them out of Malta still.

The US rejected the Balkans because they were doctrinely committed to a frontal attack via N France. If they accept that is no longer possible other operations become not just worthwhile but arguably essential. Fighting where the Germans are at an huge logistical disadvantage such as the ME and a lesser one such as the Balkans is playing to allied strengths in terms of greater mobility due to control of the seas. There is the route to Iran which instead of supplying the Soviets can now support substantial allied forces there to contest the Caucasus region while the Germans have a very long land supply line. N Africa can be cleared up as OTL by May 43 or if the allies commit more forces a lot quicker, although that won't trap anything like the Axis forces it did OTL. With that secured the defences in the ME can be strengthen, or as suggested forces wasted OTL in Britain could be directed there even earlier.

Also even with almost unlimited oil Germany will still be massively outnumbered in the air. It simply can't produce either a.c or trained pilots and it can only approach allied numbers by staying with fairly outdated designs like the Me 109 as the core of its fighter force. This can be used either in a solely European strategic campaign or tactical ones or both.
 

sillygoose

Well-known member
Can't remember that off-hand but could well be wrong. Could this be a reference to the appalling quality of many of the roads even before the late autumn floods?
That is what I remember as well. @History Learner could you perhaps quote the section you're referencing?

He does comment on how impractical the 1941 campaign was due to the massively over-stretched logistics. Which wasn't primarily anything to do with the number of trucks the German forces had. More simply with the sheer distances involved over which a vehicle can carry loads before the total load is needed for the pettrol to get it to that point. There was a reason why the German battle plans relied on defeating the Red Army west of the Dnieper and Dvina. Additional oil won't make a great difference to that.
Tooze is an economist and is woefully out of his depth commenting on military operations and gets quite a few things incorrect when he delves into those subjects. Despite the Germans supposedly being overstretched they managed in October after a grueling campaign to inflict 1 million casualties on the Soviets for about 50,000 casualties in two weeks at Vyazma-Bryansk. That is per David Glantz and a Russian historian who's father died in that battle:
Cannot recommend that book more highly. We're extremely fortunate these days that so many high quality Russian language histories are being translated and made very inexpensively available via ebook.

So despite the battle plan calling for the decisive battle near the border the greatest victory of the Germans in Barbarossa actually came east of Smolensk on the road to Moscow after months of extremely heavy fighting. So logistics wasn't the issue it is made up to be by ignorant or unscrupulous 'historians'. Also I do question view that the German planners that the war would be over after the border battle, since they anticipated heavy casualties through the rest of 1941 and actually had enough replacements allocated to nearly replace every man historically lost in the campaign. The unanticipated part was the casualties during the winter and extension of the war at a high level into 1942, but somehow the winter campaign of 1941-42 was actually the period where casualties were the most lopsided in favor of the Germans.

Also you seem to be assuming that Germany having more fuel automatically means they have more trucks. Not the case. Those additional vehicles have to be constructed - which means money, trained manpower and industrial capacity and raw materials. Germany was operating at the limit for much of the 1930's in terms of its breakneck expansion so if its going to double the number of military trucks what will it give up?
That is true. If anything the bigger gain would have been to improve the planning for the rail system and include the Reichsbahn leadership in restructuring the rail system since they were the ones with knowledge of the Soviet rail system, not so much the German army, which largely hadn't dealt with it since 1918.

Furthermore a lot more trucks means a lot more people to operate and support them. Possibly not a great deal in terms of drivers once trained given how many men Germany conscripted but the mechanics and other maintenance staff will need pretty well trained men that somewhere else won't have.
I'm guessing probably not, since the additional trucks would likely replace the civilian models from France and Belgium with more robust military models, which apparently held up much better to the road conditions of the campaign.
 

sillygoose

Well-known member
That's not a problem.
Just take a look at the production numbers for the RSO.
Steyr, the company that designed it, only made 2600 specimens, while the rest were all made by other companies.
Germany doesn't have this kind of problem.
It's just a matter of getting enough tools and jigs.
For one thing the RSO was a very different design, started after the war began and with hindsight based on experience with earlier models and it was designed to be very easy to make. Plus it was 1/2 or 1/3 of the weight of the Mercedes trucks you mentioned, which makes it considerably easier to make as well. See Pz 38t chassis output vs. heavier models; despite much less factory space being made available, many variations made, and not being designed for mass manufacture like the Panther more 38t chassis were made during the war than Panthers.

Also Germany's problem WAS getting enough tools and jigs, for which they were at least 2-3 years in arrears depending on the industry. The German machine tool industry, while advanced by European standards, was considerably smaller and inferior to the US industry, so they couldn't simply turn on a dime like the US could with their massive capacity.

They did help solve the problem
Only problem is that they didn't start work on it in 1934.
The Kubelwagen was fully capable of towing the Pak 36 and the 75mm light infantry gun.
Um...I don't think you know what 'solve the problem' means when it comes to not being tooled up in 1939. The VW was ready to go as a design in 1939, but the factory to make it wasn't ready and because it wasn't incorporated into any mobilization plan either it was operating as a subcomponent contractor with what machinery it did have at a fraction of its design capacity. It took years to get the tools and get incorporated into the war effort as a major factory.
In the autumn of 1939 the production halls were in the shell. However, there was no scheduled production of the KdF car (150,000 per year), as special machine tools were lacking due to the preparation of the economy for the war. Most of the steel required for production was to be supplied from the newly founded “City of Hermann Göring Works ” ( Salzgitter ).

Volkswagenwerk GmbH faces serious economic problems with the outbreak of World War II. Armaments interests take precedence over the planned production of civilian vehicles. However, the company is hard put to come up with products to fully utilize capacity at the plant designed for the annual production of 1.5 million vehicles. The production of bombs, furnaces and wooden auxiliary tanks as well as aircraft repairs begun in 1940 is not particularly profitable. The situation improves on August 3, 1940, with the start of mass production of the VW 82 Kübelwagen military utility vehicle at the main plant. The pre-production vehicles and the first 25 VW 82 vehicles were built at Porsche in Stuttgart. The open personnel carrier, a KdF-Wagen saloon modified for military use, has 27.5 cm ground clearance and is fitted with a 1,131 ccm 25 hp boxer engine. Its key features are allterrain capability and robustness. The bodies are supplied by rail from Ambi Budd in Johannisthal near Berlin. On December 20th the one thousandth vehicle rolls off the production line. By April 1945 37,320 Kübelwagen have come off the assembly line.
So despite a yearly planned production capacity of 1.5 million units they only ended up making a little of 37,000 units for the entire war.
 

BlackDragon98

Freikorps Kommandant
Banned - Politics
For one thing the RSO was a very different design, started after the war began and with hindsight based on experience with earlier models and it was designed to be very easy to make. Plus it was 1/2 or 1/3 of the weight of the Mercedes trucks you mentioned, which makes it considerably easier to make as well. See Pz 38t chassis output vs. heavier models; despite much less factory space being made available, many variations made, and not being designed for mass manufacture like the Panther more 38t chassis were made during the war than Panthers.

Also Germany's problem WAS getting enough tools and jigs, for which they were at least 2-3 years in arrears depending on the industry. The German machine tool industry, while advanced by European standards, was considerably smaller and inferior to the US industry, so they couldn't simply turn on a dime like the US could with their massive capacity.


Um...I don't think you know what 'solve the problem' means when it comes to not being tooled up in 1939. The VW was ready to go as a design in 1939, but the factory to make it wasn't ready and because it wasn't incorporated into any mobilization plan either it was operating as a subcomponent contractor with what machinery it did have at a fraction of its design capacity. It took years to get the tools and get incorporated into the war effort as a major factory.



So despite a yearly planned production capacity of 1.5 million units they only ended up making a little of 37,000 units for the entire war.
So throw more resources and workers into the machine tool industry before the war!
Germans didn't start standardization or a war economy until they started experiencing shortages or when it was far, far too late, respectively.
Resources were squandered on worthless prestige projects before the war, like the Berlin Olympics, New Chancellory, Autobahn, etc. when they could have be used for other, more important projects.
What standardization they did try was half hearted and completely screwed up.
Half the problems for the passengers cars came from a spare tire mount that was integrated in the middle of the vehicle.
Even a chimpanzee could see that such a detail was absolutely unnecessarily complicated and should be removed immediately, yet the Germans took until 1940 to make this simplest of changes.
Bunch of idiots I say.

When the Nazis declared war in 1939, it was the beginning of the end for them. They had already lost.
Had they been able to annex Austria successfully in 1934, Matzen could be found earlier (1935-1936).
More natural oil means far less synthetic plants have to be constructed, saving at least a couple million tons of steel and hundreds of thousands of man-hours.
And they would be able to double their pre-war oil reserves.

Schoonebeek isn't worth it due to the nature of the oil and the high cost and difficulty of extraction associated with it.
 

History Learner

Well-known member
Can't remember that off-hand but could well be wrong. Could this be a reference to the appalling quality of many of the roads even before the late autumn floods? He does comment on how impractical the 1941 campaign was due to the massively over-stretched logistics. Which wasn't primarily anything to do with the number of trucks the German forces had. More simply with the sheer distances involved over which a vehicle can carry loads before the total load is needed for the pettrol to get it to that point. There was a reason why the German battle plans relied on defeating the Red Army west of the Dnieper and Dvina. Additional oil won't make a great difference to that.

Wages of Destruction, Pages 412, by Adam Tooze:

In late May 1941, General Adolf von Schell, the man responsible for the motor vehicle industry, seriously suggested that in light of the chronic shortage of oil it would be advisable to carry out a partial 'demotorization' of the Wehrmacht.68 It is commonly remarked that the Luftwaffe suffered later in the war because of the inadequate training of its pilots, due in large part to the shortage of air fuel.69 But in 1941 the petrol shortage was already so severe that the Wehrmacht was licensing its soldiers to drive heavy trucks with less than 15 kilometres of on-road experience, a measure which was blamed for the appalling attrition of motor vehicles during the Russian campaign.70 Shortages made themselves felt across the German economy. So tight were fuel rations that in November 1941 Opel was forced to shut down production at its Brandenburg plant, Germany's largest truck factory, because it lacked the petrol necessary to check the fuel pumps of vehicles coming off the assembly line. A special allocation of 104 cubic metres of fuel had to be arranged by the Wehrmacht's economic office so as to ensure that there were no further interruptions.71​

Also you seem to be assuming that Germany having more fuel automatically means they have more trucks. Not the case. Those additional vehicles have to be constructed - which means money, trained manpower and industrial capacity and raw materials. Germany was operating at the limit for much of the 1930's in terms of its breakneck expansion so if its going to double the number of military trucks what will it give up? Furthermore a lot more trucks means a lot more people to operate and support them. Possibly not a great deal in terms of drivers once trained given how many men Germany conscripted but the mechanics and other maintenance staff will need pretty well trained men that somewhere else won't have.

Very much the case, as cited above; the only hindrance was fuel, as noted.

They can probably take Stalingrad, if Hitler doesn't get impatient as OTL, which a stronger transport force if it can be assembled might still prompt him to do. Its still going to be very costly however and the Soviets might prolong the battle by pumping in more forces, albeit this would reduce its forces for any counter attack.

They would've taken it off the march-i.e. undefended-in late July/early August if Hitler had not diverted 4th Panzer Army to Rostov.

Its still a very strong distance to travel over difficult terrain to get to Baku, let alone capture its ruins. Such forces also would need to be maintained and supported, which would consume a lot of additional transport. Their also going to have even longer lines to defend now so its unclear that they will be able to resist at least one large Soviet counter attack. As it is OTL Army Group A, which was directed towards Baku, was under peril for some time after the hammer fell at Stalingrad because Hitler refused to give up on the ground gained. There is an argument that if the Soviets hadn't over-estimated the forces in the Stalingrad pocket they could have driven for Rostov earlier and threatened the entire Army Group. Escape would still be possible via the Crimean as long as the Germans hold Novorossisk but an advance on that would be a possibility as well.

Baku is likely the target for the 1943 campaign season, I agree, but good thing the Germans will have markedly better logistics. Army Group A would be under no threat because the Soviet operations you refer to resulted in the encirclement of Army Group B, thus removing AG-A's flank protection.

The USSR is gravely weakened but there are still resources, manpower and industrial east of that point and they have no reason to stop fighting. Given the nature of the Nazi regime continued resistance is their only option, as it is for many in the huge area Germany now has to control. Germany can withdraw some forces but there's going to be a huge manpower and material demand especially since casualties are still likely to be far from trivial in the east, albeit not the massive level of OTL.

No, there are no resources, industrial, natural or manpower wise from which resistance can be maintained, as I have cited to you many times previously. Case in point, see the manpower situation:

IV. Remaining unused resources:​
a) reserved for employment in the civil economy - 2 781 000​
b) in labor columns - 1 321 000​
c) recruits born in 1925 - 700 000​
d) non-conscripted men fully fit for service in the Central Asian Military District - 600 000
e) non-conscripted men with limited fitness or in the age above 45 (without Far-East and Transcaucasus) - 500 000 (of them 277 000 in the Central Asia)
f) non-conscripted men in the Far East, Trasnbaikal and Transcaucasus Fronts 505 000 (including 200 000 with limited fitness and 200 000 in age above 45).
g) officers of reserve, not conscripted yet - 156 000​
h) expected convalescents from hospitals in 3 nearest months - 350 000​
i) in the penitentiary system - 1 156 000 men in age from 17 to 45.​

The loss of the Ukraine and other occupied areas had already engendered shortages of coal (The Donbass was home to roughly 60% of Soviet output by itself), aluminum (Main Soviet facility was along the Dnieper, about 60-80% of production), iron ore (60% of production), steel (50% of production), electric power (30% of output), manganese ore (30% of production), and nickel (30% of production). Overall output of the machinery and metal goods sector had fallen by 40%. In addition, the USSR was also unable to meet the demand for copper, tin, zinc, lead, aluminum, and nickel with remaining sources; Lend Lease was sufficient to meet all of these demands except for aluminum and nickel. Antimony, tungsten, cobalt, vanadium, molybdenum, tin, and magnesium were also almost entirely lacking.

Unfortunately for the Soviets, the A-A Line means they have lost roughly 50% of their Lend Lease supplies as well as 90% of their oil, roughly 90% of their coal, and virtually all of their domestic sources of aluminum and nickel. @sillygoose has already touched on the food situation, and I have cited it to you in the past, but I will be happy to post it again from Hunger and War:

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In terms of forces available then there was an army group Britain established in the Iraq/Iran area in 42 in case the Germans reached the Baku region, which I doubt they would do until in 43 under the circumstances. This actually had more divisions than Montgomery had in the 2nd El Alamein battle according to one source, although I suspect the quality of equipment/experience might be lower. In the longer term everything the US army sent to Britain in 42 and 43 is theoretically available as well as some British forces. Especially if a large scale collapse of the Soviets mean that no invasion of France is practical then fight them where their at a huge logistical disadvantage such as the Caucasus region.

It was entirely an Army Group solely on paper, with no real combat forces attached to it. See the British concern for the defense of Turkey in 1942:

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If you are assuming the U.S. sends what it has available, that means no TORCH or operations against Italy. Very likely then Rommel can overrun the Suez in 1943.

That assumes it can extract them in between slaughtering the inhabitants and generally messing things up as it did OTL. It still has serious resource limitations and extacting materials from a war torn wasteland won't be easy. More resources but not massively so especially since those raw materials have to be dragged back to Germany.

Which it did handily IOTL with the portions it did overrun and had established a railway network built specifically for this purpose. Did you know the German Army in the East was fed off local resources and Ukrainian ores were used to help double munitions productions in 1942 and were set to provide for a massive increase in 1943 until the RAF conducted the Ruhr Campaign?

That seems unlikely to put it mildly. By last 43 the war in the Pacific is largely won, although not clear to all. The B-29 campaign in 1945 was an additional nail in the coffin for the Japanese economy but reducing the front to 2ndary status and slowly wearing them down is possible. As is freeing up resources by only making one rather than two main thrusts. As you say Germany is even more than OTL the primary threat so full concentration should be on it.

Not possible, politically or military. The Imperial Japanese Navy remains undefeated and in 1944 was capable of very serious fleet action; reducing the Pacific to secondary status is just not possible without making it so that peace would eventually have to be made with the Japanese on favorable terms to them. By 1944-1945 the Anglo-Americans have exhausted their manpower and political willingness to fight the war, while Japan remains in control of the Pacific; you can't expect their publics to accept literally millions of additional casualties in Europe and then go on to fight until 1948-or later-to defeat the Japanese:

In one way or another, George C. Marshall, the U.S. Army's Chief of Staff, had long been expecting a sharp reduction in military morale. He had witnessed, as aide-decamp to General John J. Pershing, America's mood after World War I. Once Germany asked for an armistice (and before it signed a surrender), Congress and the public had demanded a swift demobilization. This indelible memory of November 1918 shaped Marshall's resolve to minimize military responsibilities after the Nazi capitulation. In Europe, this meant an end to operations in the eastern Mediterranean, where internal political conflicts and instabilities might require a large and long-term occupation by an army about to be drastically reduced in size. In the Pacific, the Japanese would have to be beaten into a position where their surrender would occur shortly after V-E Day. Otherwise, there might not be a capitulation at all, something Marshall predicted in 1943: "the collapse of Germany would impose partial demobilization and a growing impatience ... throughout the United States." This mood could lead to a compromise settlement along the lines the Japanese Army was hoping to obtain: that is, the retention of the core empire it still occupied (Formosa, Manchuria, and Korea) and no change in the political institutions of Japan.2
America's military timing was exceptionally good, considering the enormous perplexities of the war. When Germany surrendered in May, the United States had already made what Marshall called the "preparation for the final kill." Its armed forces surrounded the home islands of Japan from the south and the east. It had also obtained from Russia a pledge to attack the Japanese Imperial Army in Manchuria, thereby completing the ironclad blockade that the U.S. Navy once planned to execute alone. However, the denial of imports of strategic items, from oil to coal and protein, did not mean that a mere mop-up operation was in the works, Most of the U.S. military, especially the Army, conducted planning on the premise "that defeat of the enemy's armed forces in the Japanese homeland is a prerequisite to unconditional surrender." Even before Japan strongly reinforced Kyushu, the first home island the United States would invade, the American military calculated that America would still have to conduct the toughest landings and follow-up battles seen in World War II --- actions that would likely result in some 200,000 casualties and 50,000 fatalities.3 Admiral William D. Leahy, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, an advocate of the blockade strategy, would later complain that "the Army did not appear to be able to understand that the Navy, with some Army air assistance, already had defeated Japan."​
The flaw in Leahy's argument was that the Japanese Imperial Army refused to accept the fact that it had lost the war, at least by the standard of unconditional surrender. That demand was completely unacceptable to an institution that ordered wounded soldiers to commit suicide rather than become prisoners of war.4 Leahy admitted however, that there was "little prospect of obtaining unconditional surrender" in 1945, Admiral Ernest J. King, Chief of Naval Operations, would write that the Navy "in the course of time would have starved the Japanese into submission" (Italics mine). Time, however, was a waning asset, especially to Marshall, who would later say that American "political and economic institutions melted out from under us [the U.S. military]". The Office of War Mobilization and Reconversion told the JCS what magazines and newspapers had been printing since late 1944: there was overwhelming public pressure to increase production of consumer goods. I am "afraid of unrest in the country," said Director Fred Vinson. I have never seen "the people in their present frame of mind." Aside from reports about the "national end-of-the-war psychology among [the] citizens" of the United States, the JCS heard from its own military intelligence community. Their best estimate was that total victory through encirclement, blockade, and bombardment might well take "a great many years."5​


Even the strategic bombing campaign in Europe is of dubious merit given the resources consumed, so there is potential, if the will is there in Washington, for continuing to fight in Europe. If you accept a peace with Hitler in charge of the continent up to the Caucasus's and the A-A line then you would need to maintain sizeable forces to prevent him grabbing more at a time of his choosing so it would be a very heavily armed peace. However from what I have seen mentioned it was the B-29 that was the huge resource pit that made the Americans decide not to go for a larger army.

The Germans themselves, the Americans Post-War in their military assessments and modern day historians heartily disagree with that claim. As for the B-29, absolutely not and any basic math shows that; rather, it was the Army Air Force and U.S. Navy as a whole that prevented a larger Army because of their manpower requirements. Here you go:

3,970 B-29s built x Crew of 11 = 43,670 personnel

To put this into perspective, that's about four divisions lol.

The US rejected the Balkans because they were doctrinely committed to a frontal attack via N France. If they accept that is no longer possible other operations become not just worthwhile but arguably essential. Fighting where the Germans are at an huge logistical disadvantage such as the ME and a lesser one such as the Balkans is playing to allied strengths in terms of greater mobility due to control of the seas. There is the route to Iran which instead of supplying the Soviets can now support substantial allied forces there to contest the Caucasus region while the Germans have a very long land supply line. N Africa can be cleared up as OTL by May 43 or if the allies commit more forces a lot quicker, although that won't trap anything like the Axis forces it did OTL. With that secured the defences in the ME can be strengthen, or as suggested forces wasted OTL in Britain could be directed there even earlier.

Nope, they rejected it because of logistics and the fact they could never defeat the Germans there, in their own words. See Mark Stoler's Allies and Adversaries, Pages 110-111:

The problems with this strategy, according to the jssc, were both military and political. Eastern Mediterranean operations would require previously committed U.S. naval support, Turkish belligerency the jssc rated an overall liability rather than an asset, and offensives at the end of long and tenuous supply lines in an area so mountainous and remote from the center of German power as to be indecisive and invite stalemate or defeat. Moreover, such operations were based on the assumption that indirect campaigns in the Mediterranean against Germany’s satellites, combined with blockade, bombing, and guerrilla operations, could force a German collapse. Dubious under the best of circumstances, this assumption ignored the fact that an approach relegating to the Soviet Union the brutal task of fighting the bulk of the Wehrmacht while London reaped political benefits in the eastern Mediterranean and Balkans, an area of historic Anglo-Russian rivalry, might so arouse Russia’s anger and suspicion as to make it ‘‘more susceptible’’ to German peace feelers— especially ones which would grant Moscow its centuries old desire to control the Dardanelles. The resulting separate peace would leave Germany undefeated and dominant in Central and Western Europe and would make Allied victory impossible.31​

Also, you are playing fast and loose with your arguments. You're talking about the Anglo-Americans using their naval might to conduct operations on the periphery but just earlier suggested they reduce their production in this category in favor of more land forces; likewise, you are talking about North Africa being cleared out in early 1943 as per IOTL but just earlier suggested sending the American forces used to do such to Iran. You need to pick a strategy for this debate and stick with it.

Also even with almost unlimited oil Germany will still be massively outnumbered in the air. It simply can't produce either a.c or trained pilots and it can only approach allied numbers by staying with fairly outdated designs like the Me 109 as the core of its fighter force. This can be used either in a solely European strategic campaign or tactical ones or both.

Not really, given the resources available to them. The entire German planning was to defeat the USSR and then use the resources to engage in and win the air war. With unlimited oil comes unlimited pilot training, no Army needs in the East means literally millions of trained production workers and future pilots available, and, finally, all the resources that went into Army production are now free for air production. In 1944, German rivaled Britain in air production and that was with all the resources it had devoted to the land war in the East and West; said ground war in the East, which consumed 150 Divisions, is not there and thus frees up massive resources for use in the Luftwaffe.

Despite what you may think, the Bf-109G was basically comparable to Allied models, and for the cost of one B-17 you could produce about four of them. Four fighters and four pilots for the same cost as one bomber that uses 10 air crew; very bad math for the Allies. There's also nothing to prevent the Germans from massively switching to other, more effective aircraft and weapons; the Wasserfall AAM/SAM as well as the Me-262 for example. Given German sortie rates and casualty infliction rates of OTL with the Me-262, even with just a tripling or so of their OTL air fleet of the aforementioned Jet would result in American bomber losses almost equal to their entire annual production in 1944!
 
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