WI: Matzen and Schoonebeek Oil Fields discovered, 1938-1940

1 - before '43 - if not '44 - allied bombing will be a niusance at the best of times;
2 - I did not know that POL limits were a factor even before mid '41 - I thought that Germany was swimming in Soviet supplied oil. Thanks for educating me;
3 - not making trucks in '41-42 'cause there was no gasoline for them - I didn't know that, thank you. Still did not stop the Germans from churning out airplanes by the thousands in '44 ... ;
4 - more trucks is nice, naturally, but operations will still be in c.300-500km jumps due to all other factors affecting logistics;
5 - you've convinced me - with no pressing need for Soviet oil the '42 campaign in the Russia should be very different.

Oil became a huge problem for the Germans in the later stages of Barbarossa, and because of how much of their own reserves they expanded during the operation, they were able to only focus on one sector of fighting in '42. Had they not had to deal with such issues and concerns, they likely could've advanced on all fronts without too much issues in their way. As the Soviets wouldn't be able to muster up a significant resistance due to shock, fear, starvation, and similar logistical concerns to the Nazis. They also de-mechanized a large portion of their army due to fuel concerns, they also weren't really building as many trucks as they could've from the start of the war, same concerns with logistics. A potential drive on Moscow could become a much more real possibility with a better mechanized and supplied army in the field to wage the campaign. Or a second Barbarossa could be attempted in '42 which would be able to take Moscow and the Caucuses had the Germans not been so starved of oil.
 

stevep

Well-known member
HL

Your assuming that a hell of a lot happens, including two separate oil centres being discovered and developed very rapidly and that the Dutch one is captured pretty much intact. Then that the Axis make all the right decisions and the allies make no real changes.

Also ignoring what Sillygoose is saying about Rommel. Apart from the fact he's still likely to attack in breach of his orders for the initial campaign a 'forward' defence for him does no good unless they do make it to Alexandria. He can inflict defeats and losses as OTL but if he moves into eastern Libya, let alone Egypt itself he exposes his own logistics greatly and eases those of the British. None of this would be changed by the Axis magically having a lot more oil and trucks. Your still likely to have something like Torch in late 42 as its the only location where the allies can hit the European Axis at a time where they have to be seen to do something and that would be even more so if the Soviets are even more clearly hard pressed than OTL.

Malta is unlikely to fall before the occupation of Yugoslavia because until the collapse of the Italian position after Operation Compass Mussolini was determined that N Africa would be Italy's sphere of operation and 'success' and there's not really either time or resources to be committed to take Malta before an invasion of the Balkans. It could well fall later although there are contradictory opinions as to how important it was in restricting Axis operations in N Africa while it was a heavy drain on Britain to maintain it so its loss is a mixed blessing for both sides.

Night bombing of Schoonebeek should be a lot more effective long before 1944 simply because its a lot closer than so many other targets so its easily to use electronic aids from Britain for targeting the region. Not to mention the USAAF making daylight attacks from 1942 which could be an earlier bloodbath for the Luftwaffe once they accept that the bombers need escorts.

You say
Roughly 7 barrels is equal to 1 ton of oil, so the 3 million tons produced would equate to ~20 million barrels of fuel. This, from 1941 onward, means that the monthly shortfall would be reduced from 1.9 million barrels to just around 300,000 tons. This remainder could be eliminated via the Romanians, since the Germans would have the ability to adequately supply their coal needs without the expansion of their synthetic program to the same extent:

But this is assuming that the Germans are still using as much coal as OTL for the coal gassification. They can produce less to have more coal, although its still going to be short but that assumes less oil produced. As such your double counting this. Not to mention your assuming that the Germans are able to produce a lot more trucks which in themselves would require more oil to operate. Along with supplying additional oil for the Italian navy being proposed.

Also unless there is a drastic change in the attack on Russia in 1941, the Germans are unlikely to have a strategic success in 42. They simply have lost too many men and equipment over the previous year. they can hurt Russia more but a knock out blow is [fortunately] pretty much impossible. They can fight longer and make it even bloodier but decisive victory is beyond them by this point.
 

stevep

Well-known member
Oil became a huge problem for the Germans in the later stages of Barbarossa, and because of how much of their own reserves they expanded during the operation, they were able to only focus on one sector of fighting in '42. Had they not had to deal with such issues and concerns, they likely could've advanced on all fronts without too much issues in their way. As the Soviets wouldn't be able to muster up a significant resistance due to shock, fear, starvation, and similar logistical concerns to the Nazis. They also de-mechanized a large portion of their army due to fuel concerns, they also weren't really building as many trucks as they could've from the start of the war, same concerns with logistics. A potential drive on Moscow could become a much more real possibility with a better mechanized and supplied army in the field to wage the campaign. Or a second Barbarossa could be attempted in '42 which would be able to take Moscow and the Caucuses had the Germans not been so starved of oil.

Not really. It wasn't just oil that the Germans lacked. They only made possible Case Blue by concentrating resources in the south and largely clinging on elsewhere. Even if the Soviets make the same mistakes as OTL the Germans don't have the strength for a multi-front offensive.
 

BlackDragon98

Freikorps Kommandant
Banned - Politics
The whole oil thing is a massive multifaceted problem.

Based on my plans for my novel series; the Reich trilogy (formerly known as Der Rote Kampfflieger)

-Nazis are more popular due to their actions in the 1920s, and thus come to power earlier with Hitler elected as Prez (1931 after Hindenburg dies of pneumonia)

-Nazis turn the great depression around in record time by enacting increasing government spending in the forms of military projects and civil works (Deutsches Reichbahn is the focus, Autobahn is postponed indefinitely due to oil situation, however small sections of highway that double as auxi airstrips are still built)

-Nazis achieve Anschluss in 1934 (OTL their 1934 attempt failed miserably)

-Matzen discovered in 1935-36 (massive expansion of production)

-Nazis standardize their trucks with the Mercedes Benz L3000A (3 ton 4x4) and the Mercedes Benz L4500A (4.5 ton 4x4) as both are diesels, Raupenschlepper Ost (RSO) developed earlier and put in production in 1937 with the Deutz diesel, fuel economy is a critical part in choosing vehicles Kubelwagen begins production in 1937, preventing the creation of the atrocious Einheits-PKWs.

-fast forward to 1940, Low Countries and France fall to Germany. Schoonebeck discovered in 1941 and put in production, heavily defended by flak trains (why Reichbahn and not Autobahn) and flak towers, Matzen is too far away

That's all I'm going to say for now.
If you have any questions, just ask.
I'll be getting back to updating the Reich Trilogy in a few days.
 

History Learner

Well-known member
HL

Your assuming that a hell of a lot happens, including two separate oil centres being discovered and developed very rapidly and that the Dutch one is captured pretty much intact. Then that the Axis make all the right decisions and the allies make no real changes.

Given Schoonebeek wasn't even discovered IOTL until 1943, I have no doubt the Germans would capture it intact given there was nothing for the Dutch to destroy and the fact its right on the German border; it's literally 14 miles or so, there is no time to do demolitions before the Panzers overrun them even if there was. From there, however, as pointed out however there is nothing the Allies can do differently and I assuming very logical changes on the part of the Axis. Can you explain why the Germans wouldn't translate greater rubber, steal, and oil into greater material outputs and operational actions? If your complaint is the ability of the the Germans to exploit this windfall, as has already been pointed out they did such with Maikop in the space of a single campaign season and even OTL from 1938 to 1944 massively developed existing sources in Austria; 1.4 million tons was being produced there by 1944. It's also materially much, much easier to access natural resources rather than develop a costly synthetic industry:

Even with the addition of the Romanian deliveries, overland oil imports after 1939 could not make up for the loss of overseas shipments. In order to become less dependent on outside sources, the Germans undertook a sizable expansion program of their own meager domestic oil pumping. Before the annexation of Austria in 1938, oil fields in Germany were concentrated in northwestern Germany. After 1938, the Austrian oil fields were available also, and the expansion of crude oil output was chiefly effected there. Primarily as a result of this expansion, Germany’s domestic output of crude oil increased from approximately 3.8 million barrels in 1938 to almost 12 million barrels in 1944.10 Yet the production of domestic crude oil never equaled in any way the levels attained by Germany’s other major supplier of oil, the synthetic fuel plants.​

Also ignoring what Sillygoose is saying about Rommel. Apart from the fact he's still likely to attack in breach of his orders for the initial campaign a 'forward' defence for him does no good unless they do make it to Alexandria. He can inflict defeats and losses as OTL but if he moves into eastern Libya, let alone Egypt itself he exposes his own logistics greatly and eases those of the British. None of this would be changed by the Axis magically having a lot more oil and trucks. Your still likely to have something like Torch in late 42 as its the only location where the allies can hit the European Axis at a time where they have to be seen to do something and that would be even more so if the Soviets are even more clearly hard pressed than OTL.

I honestly don't know what you're going on about because Rommel did move into Eastern Libya and quite deeply in Egypt? If you think Torch will still happen, sure, but if Malta has fallen it would definitely be a smaller (in geographical terms) area of operations, with no landings in Algeria likely.

Malta is unlikely to fall before the occupation of Yugoslavia because until the collapse of the Italian position after Operation Compass Mussolini was determined that N Africa would be Italy's sphere of operation and 'success' and there's not really either time or resources to be committed to take Malta before an invasion of the Balkans. It could well fall later although there are contradictory opinions as to how important it was in restricting Axis operations in N Africa while it was a heavy drain on Britain to maintain it so its loss is a mixed blessing for both sides.

Taking Malta was easily within Italy's abilities in 1940, and I'm not sure what you are attempting to argue with the relevancy of North Africa to such; Malta lays directly astride the lines of communication and was clearly coveted by the Italians as part of securing their "Fourth Shore". Regardless, it is strategically vital and would massively improve Axis logistics in the theater as well as bisect the Med, prevent British movement across from it. Presuming Torch still happens as OTL, an invasion of Sicily is impossible without Malta.

Night bombing of Schoonebeek should be a lot more effective long before 1944 simply because its a lot closer than so many other targets so its easily to use electronic aids from Britain for targeting the region. Not to mention the USAAF making daylight attacks from 1942 which could be an earlier bloodbath for the Luftwaffe once they accept that the bombers need escorts.

You say

As has already been pointed out, there are no electronic aids and the poor performance of the Anglo-American bombers until 1944 against such defended targets points heavily to the negative for such assertions.

But this is assuming that the Germans are still using as much coal as OTL for the coal gassification. They can produce less to have more coal, although its still going to be short but that assumes less oil produced. As such your double counting this. Not to mention your assuming that the Germans are able to produce a lot more trucks which in themselves would require more oil to operate. Along with supplying additional oil for the Italian navy being proposed.

No double counting is occurring here. To quote again from the source listed in the OP about the synthetic industries:

Still, between 1938 and 1943, synthetic fuel output underwent a respectable growth from 10 million barrels to 36 million. The percentage of synthetic fuels compared to the yield from all sources grew from 22 percent to more than 50 percent by 1943. The total oil supplies available from all sources for the same period rose from 45 million barrels in 1938 to 71 million barrels in 1943.27​

That massive expansion would be unneeded here, or at the most a very minor one.

Also unless there is a drastic change in the attack on Russia in 1941, the Germans are unlikely to have a strategic success in 42. They simply have lost too many men and equipment over the previous year. they can hurt Russia more but a knock out blow is [fortunately] pretty much impossible. They can fight longer and make it even bloodier but decisive victory is beyond them by this point.

Completely and utterly disagree, Enduring the Whirlwind: The German Army and the Russo-German War 1941-1943 reveals the idea the Germans were irreparably damaged in 1941 to be a complete myth. Furthermore, the idea a knockout blow can't be delivered isn't backed up by the records of both sides. We have declassified documents from the time that were prepared for Stalin personally which show that by early 1943 the Red Army had effectively exhausted the manpower resources available to it and to sustain the Red Army would require continuous liberation of occupied territories; this was why Stalin was so heavily insistent on a Second Front during the course of the war and why he extended peace feelers out to the Germans over the course of 1943 and maintained contacts as late as the Fall of 1944.

IV. Remaining unused resources:

a) reserved for employment in the civil economy - 2 781 000

b) in labor columns - 1 321 000

c) recruits born in 1925 - 700 000

d) non-conscripted men fully fit for service in the Central Asian Military District - 600 000

e) non-conscripted men with limited fitness or in the age above 45 (without Far-East and Transcaucasus) - 500 000 (of them 277 000 in the Central Asia)

f) non-conscripted men in the Far East, Trasnbaikal and Transcaucasus Fronts 505 000 (including 200 000 with limited fitness and 200 000 in age above 45).

g) officers of reserve, not conscripted yet - 156 000

h) expected convalescents from hospitals in 3 nearest months - 350 000

i) in the penitentiary system - 1 156 000 men in age from 17 to 45.

Other sources confirm this:

Bagration, 1944, Osprey Campaign Series -

"Soviet rifle divisions were generally smaller than their German counterparts, averaging 2500-4000 troops. At the time of Operation Bagration a concerted effort was made to bring these units up to an average of 6000 troops. No serious effort was made to bring them up to their nominal TOE strength of 9600 troops."

Red Army Handbook, 1939-1945, by Steven J. Zaloga -

"By this time, however, it was becoming apparent that the Soviet force structure of 500-plus Divisions simply exceeded their capacity to support it. [..] in mid-1944 more drastic action was necessary. Either some of the rifle divisions would have to be demobilized and their personnel used to fill out other units, or divisional strengths far below envisioned norms would have to be accepted. The Stavka opted for the latter alternative."

Soviet Military Doctrine from Lenin to Gorbachev, 1915-1991, by Willard C. Frank -

"Soviet sources reflect manpower deficiencies by emphasizing the low strength of rifle units and the draconian measures used to enlist soldiers in liberated regions. By 1945 Soviet rifle divisions were often under strength, with only 3,500 to 5,000 men each."

Outside of manpower, the Germans taking the Caucasus/Astrakhan removes 80-90% of Soviet oil supplies and shuts down the Persian route for Lend Lease, which accounts for 30-40% of the total from 1943 onward:

1941: 360,778t, of which 13,502t Persian Gulf, 193,229t Soviet Far East, 153,977t North Russia.

1942: 2,453,097t of which 705,259t Persian Gulf, 734,020 Soviet Far East, 949,711 North Russia, 64,107 Soviet Artic.

1943: 4,794,545t of which 1,606,979 Persian Gulf, 2,388,577 Soviet Far East, 681,043 North Russia, 117,946 Soviet Artic.

1944: 6,217,622t of which 1,788,864 Persian Gulf, 2,848,181 Soviet Far East, 1,452,775 North Russia, 127,802 Soviet Artic.

1945 3,673,819t (last shipments 20 Sept) of which: 44,513 Persian Gulf, 2,079,320 Soviet Far East, 726,725 North Russia, 680,723 Black Sea, 142,538 Soviet Artic.

From The USSR and Total War: Why Didn’t the Soviet Economy Collapse in 1942? by Mark Harrison:
Roosevelt also contributed to Soviet stabilization. The first installment of wartime Allied aid that reached the Soviet Union in 1942, although small by later standards, amounted to some 5 per cent of Soviet GNP in that year. Although Allied aid was used directly to supply the armed forces with both durable goods and consumables, indirectly it probably released resources to households. By improving the balance of overall resources it brought about a ceteris paribus increase in the payoff to patriotic citizens. In other words, Lend-Lease was stabilizing. We cannot measure the distance of the Soviet economy from the point of collapse in 1942, but it seems beyond doubt that collapse was near. Without Lend-Lease it would have been nearer. Stalin himself recognized this, although he expressed himself more directly. He told Khrushchev several times that the Soviet Union had suffered such heavy losses that without Allied aid it would have lost the war.19
Boris V. Sokolov (2007). The role of lend‐lease in Soviet military efforts, 1941–1945, The Journal of Slavic Military Studies: Vol. 7, issue 3, pages 567-586.
In general, we can conclude that without Western supplies, the Soviet Union not only could not have won the Great Patriotic War, but was not even able to resist the German invasion, not being able to produce a sufficient amount of weapons and military equipment and provide it with fuel and ammunition. This dependence was well understood by the Soviet leadership at the beginning of the war. For example, the special envoy of President F.D. Roosevelt, G. Hopkins, reported in a message dated July 31, 1941, that Stalin believed it was impossible without American assistance from Great Britain and the USSR to resist the material might of Germany, which had the resources of occupied Europe. {70} Roosevelt, back in October 1940, announcing his decision to allow the military department to provide weapons and equipment that are surplus for the needs of the American armed forces, as well as strategic materials and industrial equipment to those countries that could protect American national interests, allowed the inclusion of these countries and Russia. {71} Without such an attitude on the part of the president, the pre-war placement in the United States of Soviet orders for equipment important for the production of weapons and military equipment would hardly have been possible.
Finally, the German advance into the Caucasus collapsed Soviet food production to just 38% of what it was in 1940, and triggered a rapid price increase from the fall on into the early Summer of 1943. Even after the Soviets regained all the land Case Blue took, food production in 1943 still decreased (Likely as a result of the two years hard fighting and scorched earth twice) to 37%. This set off a large amount of starvation deaths within the USSR that didn’t taper off until 1944, when food production increased back to 54% of the 1940 total due to Ukraine being reclaimed. Here, the Soviets wouldn’t have reclaimed any of the valuable agricultural land, and further adding on to this would be the fact Lend Lease food shipments through Persia might possibly be curtailed. For reference on this, here are two sources:

The Bread of Affliction: The Food Supply in the USSR during World War II, by William Moskoff -

"The central fact behind the increased importance of the collective farm market was the drastic drop in food production, especially in 1942 and 1943, and the diminished proportion that went to the civilians. In 1943 overall agricultural production was only 38 percent of the 1940 level. In 1943, however, the Red Army began to recapture agricultural areas of the Ukraine, Belorussia, and the Caucasus and by the next year, 1944, agricultural output had risen to 54 percent of the 1940 level. Not surprisingly, the collapse of the food economy led to astonishing increases in prices. The most rapid rate [Emphasis by author] of increase in prices took place in 1942 and began to taper off in mid-1943."

The Soviet Economy and the Red Army, 1930-1945, by Walter Scott Dunn -

"By November of 1941, 47% of Soviet cropland was in German hands. The Germans had 38% of the grain farmland, 84% of the sugar land, 38% of the area devoted to beef and dairy cattle, and 60% of the land used to produce hogs. The Russians turned to the east and brought more land into cultivation. In the fall of 1941, the autumn and winter crops increased sharply in the eastern area. But despite all efforts, farm yields dropped from 95.5 million tons of grain in 1940 to 29.7 million tons in 1942. Production of cattle and horses dropped to less than half of prewar levels and hogs to one fifth. By 1942, meat and dairy production shrank to half the 1940 total and sugar to only 5%. Farm production in 1942 and 1943 dropped to 38% and 37% of 1940 totals."

Without the recovery of Eastern Ukraine and the Kuban achieved in 1943 by Soviet battlefield success, mass starvation would've broken out and crippled not only the Red Army but collapse their industrial production via death of workers.
 
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BlackDragon98

Freikorps Kommandant
Banned - Politics
Malta is a massive question mark for me.
It should have been the first target of the Italians when they DOW on the allies in May 1940.
Malta's aircraft complement was pathetic back then, only 4 Gloster Gladiator biplane fighters and 5 Swordfish biplane bombers.
Italians have overwhelming air superiority.
Using the Decima Flottaglia MAS, Marines, and Airborne, along with some German paratroopers, they could take Malta by storm before defenses could be properly prepared.

Naval minefields can close off the water North and South of the Island, leaving the Scilian straights as the only navigable path.
Mid east is now cut off for the Allies, and France has fallen.
Mid east can now be taken easily by the Axis.
 

Buba

A total creep
Using the Decima Flottaglia MAS, Marines, and Airborne, along with some German paratroopers, they could take Malta by storm before defenses could be properly prepared.
Malta could had been easily captured by Italy in the summer of 1940. Had Italy any plans to do so, that is. But it did not. Germany having oil does not change early Italian actions - as well as the fundamental fact of jumping into the war absolutely unprepared - hence Malta would have to be taken through some sort of naval grinder and assault (or starvation) in '41 or '42.
 

stevep

Well-known member
Malta is a massive question mark for me.
It should have been the first target of the Italians when they DOW on the allies in May 1940.
Malta's aircraft complement was pathetic back then, only 4 Gloster Gladiator biplane fighters and 5 Swordfish biplane bombers.
Italians have overwhelming air superiority.
Using the Decima Flottaglia MAS, Marines, and Airborne, along with some German paratroopers, they could take Malta by storm before defenses could be properly prepared.

Naval minefields can close off the water North and South of the Island, leaving the Scilian straights as the only navigable path.
Mid east is now cut off for the Allies, and France has fallen.
Mid east can now be taken easily by the Axis.

On the last section actually not. For one thing the ME was cut off, with very rare exceptions, via the Med until after Torch and the destruction of the Axis position in Tunisia. Virtually everything came around the Cape before then.

Malta could have fallen if the Italians had actually tried, since it was initially only lightly defended. However there is doubt over its importance in restricting Axis supplies to Africa, A hell of a lot were sunk on the way, in part at least via use of Malta as a base. However if they had arrived as Tripoli most of any additional oil would have been consumed transporting the rest to the front, especially if their trying to break into Egypt. There are ports nearer the front, at Benghazi and Tobruk but their very limited in capacity and more exposed to allied air and sea attack.

I'm not saying that an Axis capture of Malta wouldn't have any effect but there are other issues that would greatly restrain Axis logistical capacity even without it.

One obvious big factor if Malta did fall in late 1940 is that Britain isn't heavily committed and losing considerable resources defending and supplying it. Hence its not clear whether, for all the boost in moral of the successful defence of the island, that Britain benefited from managing to defend it.
 

sillygoose

Well-known member
Malta could had been easily captured by Italy in the summer of 1940. Had Italy any plans to do so, that is. But it did not. Germany having oil does not change early Italian actions - as well as the fundamental fact of jumping into the war absolutely unprepared - hence Malta would have to be taken through some sort of naval grinder and assault (or starvation) in '41 or '42.
They did have a pre-war plan, but Mussolini wussed out and cancelled it:
 

sillygoose

Well-known member
On the last section actually not. For one thing the ME was cut off, with very rare exceptions, via the Med until after Torch and the destruction of the Axis position in Tunisia. Virtually everything came around the Cape before then.

Malta could have fallen if the Italians had actually tried, since it was initially only lightly defended. However there is doubt over its importance in restricting Axis supplies to Africa, A hell of a lot were sunk on the way, in part at least via use of Malta as a base. However if they had arrived as Tripoli most of any additional oil would have been consumed transporting the rest to the front, especially if their trying to break into Egypt. There are ports nearer the front, at Benghazi and Tobruk but their very limited in capacity and more exposed to allied air and sea attack.

I'm not saying that an Axis capture of Malta wouldn't have any effect but there are other issues that would greatly restrain Axis logistical capacity even without it.

One obvious big factor if Malta did fall in late 1940 is that Britain isn't heavily committed and losing considerable resources defending and supplying it. Hence its not clear whether, for all the boost in moral of the successful defence of the island, that Britain benefited from managing to defend it.
One flaw in the reasoning above, not to attack you though, is that the biggest issue was getting supplies into North Africa, not transporting them closer to the front. Having gone through the traditional older sources that make such a big deal about inland transport one of the biggest things they neglect was how little was shipped due to lack of shipping. Malta was decisive in preventing supplies getting to North Africa especially at crucial periods like in late 1941 when less than 40,000 tons was coming in (70,000 was the absolutely minimum to sustain all the civilians AND very basic military needs) due to Maltese interdiction. That forces Hitler to pull the 2nd Air Fleet out of the Eastern Front in November 1941 at the height of the battle of Moscow (it was the main air support for all of AG-Center) and left them with only 8 operational aircraft as of December 8th (or about that date) to send to Italy to suppress Malta again.

Without Malta being a base for action supplies could have been shipped much closer to the front; the bombing of the harbors that reduced capacity only was only a major factor in the 2nd half of 1942 when US bombers showed up in strength. In 1941 though Benghazi and other small ports could have been used more extensively if Malta wasn't a factor.
 

stevep

Well-known member
Given Schoonebeek wasn't even discovered IOTL until 1943, I have no doubt the Germans would capture it intact given there was nothing for the Dutch to destroy and the fact its right on the German border; it's literally 14 miles or so, there is no time to do demolitions before the Panzers overrun them even if there was. From there, however, as pointed out however there is nothing the Allies can do differently and I assuming very logical changes on the part of the Axis. Can you explain why the Germans wouldn't translate greater rubber, steal, and oil into greater material outputs and operational actions? If your complaint is the ability of the the Germans to exploit this windfall, as has already been pointed out they did such with Maikop in the space of a single campaign season and even OTL from 1938 to 1944 massively developed existing sources in Austria; 1.4 million tons was being produced there by 1944. It's also materially much, much easier to access natural resources rather than develop a costly synthetic industry:

Even with the addition of the Romanian deliveries, overland oil imports after 1939 could not make up for the loss of overseas shipments. In order to become less dependent on outside sources, the Germans undertook a sizable expansion program of their own meager domestic oil pumping. Before the annexation of Austria in 1938, oil fields in Germany were concentrated in northwestern Germany. After 1938, the Austrian oil fields were available also, and the expansion of crude oil output was chiefly effected there. Primarily as a result of this expansion, Germany’s domestic output of crude oil increased from approximately 3.8 million barrels in 1938 to almost 12 million barrels in 1944.10 Yet the production of domestic crude oil never equaled in any way the levels attained by Germany’s other major supplier of oil, the synthetic fuel plants.​

So Germany is going to get additional oil from a field that hasn't been discovered or developed yet? Please make up your mind. If its in existence in 1940 and economically important then its going to be something which the Dutch realise is a strategic target for Germany. As such they would be stupid not to have some plans for either defending it - resulting in fighting there - or if they think its loss is inevitable some capacity to deny its use to any enemy.

I honestly don't know what you're going on about because Rommel did move into Eastern Libya and quite deeply in Egypt? If you think Torch will still happen, sure, but if Malta has fallen it would definitely be a smaller (in geographical terms) area of operations, with no landings in Algeria likely.

And as a result his logistics were deeply strained. That's exactly what I'm getting at. Even with sizeable captures of equipment and supplies from British forces.

, and I'm not sure what you are attempting to argue with the relevancy of North Africa to such; Malta lays directly astride the lines of communication and was clearly coveted by the Italians as part of securing their "Fourth Shore". Regardless, it is strategically vital and would massively improve Axis logistics in the theater as well as bisect the Med, prevent British movement across from it. Presuming Torch still happens as OTL, an invasion of Sicily is impossible without Malta.

See my reply to Blackdragon98


As has already been pointed out, there are no electronic aids and the poor performance of the Anglo-American bombers until 1944 against such defended targets points heavily to the negative for such assertions.

The Luftwaffe was using radio beams in 1940 and the UK was using counter measures. Its a simple step to reply in kind and that the oilfields are so close to the UK reduces the problems from deeper penentrations into German controlled airspace. Furthermore since its fairly close to the coast, such targets were markedly easier to locate due to the advantages in navigating.

For the USAAF once they accept that escort fighters are necessary its a lot easier to hit locations in the Netherlands since it will be in range of allied fighters sooner.

No double counting is occurring here. To quote again from the source listed in the OP about the synthetic industries:

Still, between 1938 and 1943, synthetic fuel output underwent a respectable growth from 10 million barrels to 36 million. The percentage of synthetic fuels compared to the yield from all sources grew from 22 percent to more than 50 percent by 1943. The total oil supplies available from all sources for the same period rose from 45 million barrels in 1938 to 71 million barrels in 1943.27​

That massive expansion would be unneeded here, or at the most a very minor one.

As I said it might be that the Germans won't expand coal gassification as much post 1940 and the capture of the Dutch fields and that would be more efficient of coal. However saying that the addition of both sets of fields would reduce the monthly deficiet to 300k barrels a month is double counting as your assuming the same level of coal to oil work.

Completely and utterly disagree, Enduring the Whirlwind: The German Army and the Russo-German War 1941-1943 reveals the idea the Germans were irreparably damaged in 1941 to be a complete myth. Furthermore, the idea a knockout blow can't be delivered isn't backed up by the records of both sides. We have declassified documents from the time that were prepared for Stalin personally which show that by early 1943 the Red Army had effectively exhausted the manpower resources available to it and to sustain the Red Army would require continuous liberation of occupied territories; this was why Stalin was so heavily insistent on a Second Front during the course of the war and why he extended peace feelers out to the Germans over the course of 1943 and maintained contacts as late as the Fall of 1944.



Other sources confirm this:

Bagration, 1944, Osprey Campaign Series -

"Soviet rifle divisions were generally smaller than their German counterparts, averaging 2500-4000 troops. At the time of Operation Bagration a concerted effort was made to bring these units up to an average of 6000 troops. No serious effort was made to bring them up to their nominal TOE strength of 9600 troops."

Red Army Handbook, 1939-1945, by Steven J. Zaloga -

"By this time, however, it was becoming apparent that the Soviet force structure of 500-plus Divisions simply exceeded their capacity to support it. [..] in mid-1944 more drastic action was necessary. Either some of the rifle divisions would have to be demobilized and their personnel used to fill out other units, or divisional strengths far below envisioned norms would have to be accepted. The Stavka opted for the latter alternative."

Soviet Military Doctrine from Lenin to Gorbachev, 1915-1991, by Willard C. Frank -

"Soviet sources reflect manpower deficiencies by emphasizing the low strength of rifle units and the draconian measures used to enlist soldiers in liberated regions. By 1945 Soviet rifle divisions were often under strength, with only 3,500 to 5,000 men each."

Outside of manpower, the Germans taking the Caucasus/Astrakhan removes 80-90% of Soviet oil supplies and shuts down the Persian route for Lend Lease, which accounts for 30-40% of the total from 1943 onward:

1941: 360,778t, of which 13,502t Persian Gulf, 193,229t Soviet Far East, 153,977t North Russia.

1942: 2,453,097t of which 705,259t Persian Gulf, 734,020 Soviet Far East, 949,711 North Russia, 64,107 Soviet Artic.

1943: 4,794,545t of which 1,606,979 Persian Gulf, 2,388,577 Soviet Far East, 681,043 North Russia, 117,946 Soviet Artic.

1944: 6,217,622t of which 1,788,864 Persian Gulf, 2,848,181 Soviet Far East, 1,452,775 North Russia, 127,802 Soviet Artic.

1945 3,673,819t (last shipments 20 Sept) of which: 44,513 Persian Gulf, 2,079,320 Soviet Far East, 726,725 North Russia, 680,723 Black Sea, 142,538 Soviet Artic.

From The USSR and Total War: Why Didn’t the Soviet Economy Collapse in 1942? by Mark Harrison:

Boris V. Sokolov (2007). The role of lend‐lease in Soviet military efforts, 1941–1945, The Journal of Slavic Military Studies: Vol. 7, issue 3, pages 567-586.

Finally, the German advance into the Caucasus collapsed Soviet food production to just 38% of what it was in 1940, and triggered a rapid price increase from the fall on into the early Summer of 1943. Even after the Soviets regained all the land Case Blue took, food production in 1943 still decreased (Likely as a result of the two years hard fighting and scorched earth twice) to 37%. This set off a large amount of starvation deaths within the USSR that didn’t taper off until 1944, when food production increased back to 54% of the 1940 total due to Ukraine being reclaimed. Here, the Soviets wouldn’t have reclaimed any of the valuable agricultural land, and further adding on to this would be the fact Lend Lease food shipments through Persia might possibly be curtailed. For reference on this, here are two sources:

The Bread of Affliction: The Food Supply in the USSR during World War II, by William Moskoff -

"The central fact behind the increased importance of the collective farm market was the drastic drop in food production, especially in 1942 and 1943, and the diminished proportion that went to the civilians. In 1943 overall agricultural production was only 38 percent of the 1940 level. In 1943, however, the Red Army began to recapture agricultural areas of the Ukraine, Belorussia, and the Caucasus and by the next year, 1944, agricultural output had risen to 54 percent of the 1940 level. Not surprisingly, the collapse of the food economy led to astonishing increases in prices. The most rapid rate [Emphasis by author] of increase in prices took place in 1942 and began to taper off in mid-1943."

The Soviet Economy and the Red Army, 1930-1945, by Walter Scott Dunn -

"By November of 1941, 47% of Soviet cropland was in German hands. The Germans had 38% of the grain farmland, 84% of the sugar land, 38% of the area devoted to beef and dairy cattle, and 60% of the land used to produce hogs. The Russians turned to the east and brought more land into cultivation. In the fall of 1941, the autumn and winter crops increased sharply in the eastern area. But despite all efforts, farm yields dropped from 95.5 million tons of grain in 1940 to 29.7 million tons in 1942. Production of cattle and horses dropped to less than half of prewar levels and hogs to one fifth. By 1942, meat and dairy production shrank to half the 1940 total and sugar to only 5%. Farm production in 1942 and 1943 dropped to 38% and 37% of 1940 totals."

Without the recovery of Eastern Ukraine and the Kuban achieved in 1943 by Soviet battlefield success, mass starvation would've broken out and crippled not only the Red Army but collapse their industrial production via death of workers.
[/QUOTE]

I would have to disagree on the 1st assumption. Germany was weakened in 42 in manpower as in other terms as the Germans themselves reported.

On the rest your arguing that Germany will somehow overcome those difficulties and capture markedly more territory in the south than it achieved OTL and hold it as well as cutting off L-L through Iran, which requires going even further. With extra resources and somewhat different operations they might do some of the 1st but holding that is another issues.

Again your also assuming that the allies change nothing. The US can send even more foodstuff in replacement for military equipment which would mean the Soviets are a bit weaker militarily in 43 but can avoid a fatal level of starvation. The Germans even if they manage to hold onto more of any gains in 42 are still going to be massively overstretched.
 

sillygoose

Well-known member
Thanks.
Still, this AU does nothing to change the Italian plan.
BTW - was anything ever done towards implementation? E.g. were those "80 purpose-built [landing] sea craft" ever built, or did they stay at the napkinwaffe stage?
TBH I haven't researched the Italian plan enough to know for sure. I think the reasoning about Malta with this AU is that the Italian navy would have the fuel necessary to carry out the plan since the biggest issue was the lack of fuel for the Italian navy through much of the war (so they claimed, a large emergency stockpile was found by the Germans when they took over Italy in 1943).
 

sillygoose

Well-known member
If its in existence in 1940 and economically important then its going to be something which the Dutch realise is a strategic target for Germany. As such they would be stupid not to have some plans for either defending it - resulting in fighting there - or if they think its loss is inevitable some capacity to deny its use to any enemy.
Part of the issue was how unprepared for war the Dutch were. The other part was the proximity to northwest Germany (literally on the border with the fields extending into Germany...which would probably be exploited here too once the Germans were aware of them) and how indefensible the fields would be. Any troops stationed there would be very quickly lost and I guarantee taking the field before the invasion even started would be one of the biggest Brandenburger targets:
Given their historical successes against the Dutch I don't put a lot of faith in the ability of the Dutch to destroy or defend the oil fields.

The Luftwaffe was using radio beams in 1940 and the UK was using counter measures. Its a simple step to reply in kind and that the oilfields are so close to the UK reduces the problems from deeper penentrations into German controlled airspace. Furthermore since its fairly close to the coast, such targets were markedly easier to locate due to the advantages in navigating.
Britain didn't have such a system until 1942 and the Germans were able to jam it pretty well once they found out about it. Certainly the RAF could try something like what they did to Cologne and carpet bomb the area in 1942, but then would have to forego bombing Cologne and working on their area bombing strategy. So you need to decide if the Brits are going to adopt an oil first strategy or the historical area bombing directive by 1942. At that point Bomber Harris was focused like a laser on bombing cities to the exclusion of oil, which he regarded as a useless 'panacea' target. That would mean by the time the Brits have the potential means they wouldn't want to use it on oil targets, especially ones as well defended as such a field would be.
 

Buba

A total creep
is that the biggest issue was getting supplies into North Africa, not transporting them closer to the front.
I've read otherwise. There were problems with pier space/unloading capacity of ports - i.e. harbour capacity was the bottleneck (as already mentioned), and then transport to the front.
It is some 2000km from Tripoli to the "front" in the Western Desert ... you cannot feed a battle at such distance without a railroad.
Benghazi is better - but at c.600km to Sidi Barani it is outside normal supply range as well.
Look at the British - to feed the battle in the Western Desert they built a railroad.
The fact is that trucks work up to 300km or so - longer than that you need RR or sealift.
I've read somewhere about the relevance of small coastal shipping in sail powered dhows to supply forces in NA ...

I'm fairly sure I've seen good coverage of this issue on Axis-com.

TBH I haven't researched the Italian plan enough to know for sure. I think the reasoning about Malta with this AU is that the Italian navy would have the fuel necessary to carry out the plan since the biggest issue was the lack of fuel for the Italian navy through much of the war (so they claimed, a large emergency stockpile was found by the Germans when they took over Italy in 1943).
OK - but Malta Invasion still gets carried out no sooner than sometime in 2nd half of 1941 - after Compass and Italian performance in Greece :)
 
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sillygoose

Well-known member
I've read otherwise.
So have I, but when you dig into the details there is a lot of cherrypicked data there to present a specific picture that isn't necessarily accurate.

There were problems with pier space/unloading capacity of ports - i.e. harbour capacity was the bottleneck (as already mentioned), and then transport to the front.
It is some 2000km from Tripoli to the "front" in the Western Desert ... you cannot feed a battle at such distance without a railroad.
Benghazi is better - but at c.600km to Sidi Barani it is outside normal supply range as well.
It actually wasn't when you dig into the details. Despite the claimed lack of capacity some 125,000 tons was successfully imported in specific months in 1941 and later 1942 despite that exceeding the supposed combined capacity of all Axis ports. Transport to the front was certainly a major issue, especially from Tripoli, but the biggest problem was the inability to use frontline ports due to interdiction from Malta and the wide detours that reduced shipping capacity, which was already wanting for a variety of reasons, further reducing the amount of supplies that could be brought in.

Tripoli BTW was mainly used for civilian supplies and military ones were largely brought closer to the front when possible, at least from what I can find. Benghazi though wasn't the only port close to the front, Derna and a couple of others (can't remember the names off the top of my head) were used when possible.

The Brits fought a much more material intensive war with a lot more manpower than the Axis forces, so needed more supplies, much more in fact, so really did need to rely on the rail system...which wasn't really built beyond Egypt until late 1942.

Look at the British - to feed the battle in the Western Desert they built a railroad.
The fact is that trucks work up to 300km or so - longer than that you need RR or sealift.
I've read somewhere about the relevance of small coastal shipping in sail powered dhows to supply forces in NA ...

I'm fairly sure I've seen good coverage of this issue on Axis-com.
I'm aware of said rail construction, but if you read the article they're basically just talking about extending the rail line just to the Libyan border by Spring 1942 and it doesn't say what the daily actual delivered supplies were; I'd imagine a large part of the theoretical capacity of the line was eaten up just bringing up construction supplies to push the rail heads further west until the late 1942/early 1943 advance into Libya.

You're forgetting that there are often relayed supplies with dumps established at certain intervals so trucks can refuel and keep going. The Brits used that system extensively in their advances, which is why in Operation Crusader they nearly experienced complete disaster when the Axis counterattack nearly overran massive supply dumps that had been moved forward and on which the entire offensive depended. Said dumps later on actually fueled the Axis advance to El Alamein. So really the Brits largely fueled their advances by truck even within Egypt until late 1942/early 1943 and once they hit a certain point in Libya they were once again mostly truck supplies throughout 1943 even if they could ship in supplies to Tripoli for the Tunisian campaign.

So it was possible and done historically by both sides despite the claimed 300km limit. Otherwise Barbarossa would have stopped much further west than it did. Ironically the highway in Libya was better than the vast majority of the roads used for supply in the USSR!

OK - but Malta Invasion still gets carried out no sooner than sometime in 2nd half of 1941 - after Compass and Italian performance in Greece :)
Likely right given historical Italian reasoning, but assuming some potential butterflies from more oil there isn't a good military/logistical reason it couldn't be done in mid-1940.
 

stevep

Well-known member
Part of the issue was how unprepared for war the Dutch were. The other part was the proximity to northwest Germany (literally on the border with the fields extending into Germany...which would probably be exploited here too once the Germans were aware of them) and how indefensible the fields would be. Any troops stationed there would be very quickly lost and I guarantee taking the field before the invasion even started would be one of the biggest Brandenburger targets:
Given their historical successes against the Dutch I don't put a lot of faith in the ability of the Dutch to destroy or defend the oil fields.

You raise some good points here although if nothing else that's going to tie up some of the Brandenburg units. Or simply some fighting for the fields will do some damage. However probably overall not going to delay German exploitation much. :mad:

Britain didn't have such a system until 1942 and the Germans were able to jam it pretty well once they found out about it. Certainly the RAF could try something like what they did to Cologne and carpet bomb the area in 1942, but then would have to forego bombing Cologne and working on their area bombing strategy. So you need to decide if the Brits are going to adopt an oil first strategy or the historical area bombing directive by 1942. At that point Bomber Harris was focused like a laser on bombing cities to the exclusion of oil, which he regarded as a useless 'panacea' target. That would mean by the time the Brits have the potential means they wouldn't want to use it on oil targets, especially ones as well defended as such a field would be.

Part of the problem is that beams can be jammed or blocked. This is easier if your transmitters are closer to the target than those of the attacker, which is definitely the case if the RAF are traveling deep into Germany. However a target in the Netherlands is a lot closer to Britain. Plus with a smaller baseline for British beams again its easier to get more accurate guidance to a target that close.

Harris would be a problem but possibly he could be butterflied as he only took over Bomber Command until Feb 42 - although he was an example of the obsession of the bulk of the higher RAF leadership with its concentrate on heavy bombing. :( Also OTL, since the Austrian sources weren't discovered either the Rumanian oilfields were well out of range but ones in the Netherlands would be a far more practical target. As such it would be more difficult to argue against them being at least attempted.
 

BlackDragon98

Freikorps Kommandant
Banned - Politics
On the last section actually not. For one thing the ME was cut off, with very rare exceptions, via the Med until after Torch and the destruction of the Axis position in Tunisia. Virtually everything came around the Cape before then.
:LOL::LOL::LOL::LOL::LOL::LOL::LOL::LOL::LOL:
"Further success was had by the Malta Convoys. An urgent supply convoy from Gibraltar to Alexandria (Operation Tiger) coincided with reinforcements for the Mediterranean Fleet, two small convoys from Egypt to Malta and 48 more Hurricanes flew off HMS Ark Royal and Furious in Operation Splice, with only the loss of the SS Empire Song, which hit a mine and sank with 10 Hurricane fighters and 57 tanks on board.[77] Convoy Tiger transported 295 Matilda II tanks, new Crusader tanks and 24,000 tons of oil for operations in North Africa.[78] They were completed on 12 May. I., II., and III.; StG 1 made a determined effort against Tiger and Malta without result.[79]"

Very cut off indeed, and this was during a period of supposed Axis air superiority after the arrival of Fliegerkorps X.

Malta could have fallen if the Italians had actually tried, since it was initially only lightly defended. However there is doubt over its importance in restricting Axis supplies to Africa, A hell of a lot were sunk on the way, in part at least via use of Malta as a base. However if they had arrived as Tripoli most of any additional oil would have been consumed transporting the rest to the front, especially if their trying to break into Egypt. There are ports nearer the front, at Benghazi and Tobruk but their very limited in capacity and more exposed to allied air and sea attack.
See image below.

Doubt of it's Importance?
"In all, 2,304 Axis ships were sunk, with a combined tonnage of 3,130,969."

The cost of Malta not being taken in 1940 was far higher for the Axis compared to what the Allies lost defending the island.

And just so you know. . .

1024px-Radius_of_action_of_Allied_aircraft_from_Malta_in_relation_to_Axis_shipping_routes%2C_Summer_and_Autumn%2C_1941.jpg



What did it cost the Axis then, for not taking Malta when there were only 9 biplanes and 68 flak guns on the island back in 1940?
Screen_Shot_2019-02-27_at_2.52.06_PM.jpg

 

sillygoose

Well-known member
You raise some good points here although if nothing else that's going to tie up some of the Brandenburg units. Or simply some fighting for the fields will do some damage. However probably overall not going to delay German exploitation much. :mad:
Could be, but if the Dutch commit more resources to defend the area the offset will be on both sides and moot each other out. Though likely I think it would be a small team plus some Dutch Nazis which were used by the Germans historically. Maybe they'll avoid some of the failed missions like the attempted air-landing operation.

Some damage is probably to be expected, question is how much and how much would it take to repair? With that amount of oil any investments would be well worth it, especially compared to how much was wasted trying to get the Estonia shale oil working again just in time for the Soviets to take back Estonia. Or Maikop, which was a massive waste of resources to try and get back into production for the same reason.

Part of the problem is that beams can be jammed or blocked. This is easier if your transmitters are closer to the target than those of the attacker, which is definitely the case if the RAF are traveling deep into Germany. However a target in the Netherlands is a lot closer to Britain. Plus with a smaller baseline for British beams again its easier to get more accurate guidance to a target that close.
According to RV Jones it took the Germans about 5 months to jam it and longer to do it consistently. Given the inaccuracies/shameless self promotion in his memoir that may not be fully or at all accurate.
Depth though shouldn't be an issue, as the Brits claimed to be able to 'bend' the beams at any range, the bigger problem is identifiable terrain features at night if the beam isn't working right...which might be an issue given the lack of defining features in that part of the Netherlands/Germany plus lack of H2S until later in the war. Then there is the issue of the Germans using decoy targets, which they did to considerable success historically (as did the British in 1940-41) and using fake flares to simulate pathfinder markers and often did cause misdrops by bombers, especially earlier in the war when the lack of sophistication of Bomber Command was still an issue. By 1944 though that issue had largely been worked out by the RAF.

Also it is likely that the Germans would be quite concerned about bombing and would not only defend the field well, but also have transmitters throughout the Netherlands to jam the signal, which are much closer than anything based in Britain.

Harris would be a problem but possibly he could be butterflied as he only took over Bomber Command until Feb 42 - although he was an example of the obsession of the bulk of the higher RAF leadership with its concentrate on heavy bombing. :( Also OTL, since the Austrian sources weren't discovered either the Rumanian oilfields were well out of range but ones in the Netherlands would be a far more practical target. As such it would be more difficult to argue against them being at least attempted.
He took over though due to the failure of the night bombing campaign. I don't know how that could be prevented prior to the development of electronic aids, which only really came about after he took over. I certainly agree they would attempt it, but given the RAF record prior to the rise of Harris it would probably be an abject failure as they couldn't even hit major cities. Now I do think Harris could be talked into a carpet bombing operation in 1942 of the place, it is just a question of when and by how many bombers and at what cost.
 

sillygoose

Well-known member
:LOL::LOL::LOL::LOL::LOL::LOL::LOL::LOL::LOL:
"Further success was had by the Malta Convoys. An urgent supply convoy from Gibraltar to Alexandria (Operation Tiger) coincided with reinforcements for the Mediterranean Fleet, two small convoys from Egypt to Malta and 48 more Hurricanes flew off HMS Ark Royal and Furious in Operation Splice, with only the loss of the SS Empire Song, which hit a mine and sank with 10 Hurricane fighters and 57 tanks on board.[77] Convoy Tiger transported 295 Matilda II tanks, new Crusader tanks and 24,000 tons of oil for operations in North Africa.[78] They were completed on 12 May. I., II., and III.; StG 1 made a determined effort against Tiger and Malta without result.[79]"

Very cut off indeed, and this was during a period of supposed Axis air superiority after the arrival of Fliegerkorps X.
Per that link 2/3rds of the aircraft were Italian though and a substantial number of German aircraft were fighters.
 

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