Warship Appreciation Thread

Zachowon

The Army Life for me! The POG life for me!
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Not for lack of trying on their part. The IJN was saddled with inadequate AA directors and a horrible light AA gun (the 25mm Hotckiss).

The Yamato, fr'ex, had 24x5" and 168x25mm available for AA when she went down. Compare that to what the Iowa's carried (20x5", 80x40mm, 49x25mm) and the Yamato's doesn't look inadequate ... on paper.
The crews and the fire rate matter more then Flak
 

PsihoKekec

Swashbuckling Accountant
That has to be some sort of record
I guess the record is still held by Swedish Vasa, which capsized and sank 15 minutes into her first sailing.

The Colonel commanding the fort was in a sticky situation, with no clear orders he had to make the call on whether to shoot or not without knowing the identity or intentions of the ships.
When his second in command questioned his decision to engage oncoming ships he replied with something like:
''I will be either court martialled or decorated. Fire!''

I do have to say, that is hilarious watching the Germans get delayed by such old stuff
And the paratroopers who were the other part of the attack were delayed by the local shooting club.
 

gral

Well-known member
When it comes to unlucky ships I think everyone knows the absolute legend that is the William D Porter

but I always thought it was more those in proximity that suffered rather than the ship itself. Rather there is the German heavy cruiser Blucher which was declared operational on April 5th 1940 and sunk just three and a bit days later. That has to be some sort of record

Probably best known for being knocked out by guns and torpedoes made in the 1890s. The scene showed up in a film which was made at the same fortress using the same elderly cannons



I've been at that fort. Unfortunately, I missed the guided tour, so I didn't see the torpedo battery. One thing to keep in mind is that the Oslofjord channel is really narrow there(I'd estimate it being some 300m/1,000 feet or less), so the Norwegians were shooting 255kg/562 lbs shells at point-blank range(the entire action happened at less than 1,000m ranges, IIRC).

The last time the guns of Oscarborg Fortress were fired was when filming the above-pictured scene, BTW. Also, they didn't put in the most quotable part of the entire action; when asked for confirmation of the firing order, Birger Eriksen, the fortress commander replied: "Either I will be decorated or I will be court martialled, Fire!" .
 

gral

Well-known member
Regarding the Japanese 25mm Type 96, their version of the Hotchkiss, there is a video on it


I agree somewhat with the general gist of the video(the Type 96, like many of the Japanese weapons, wasn't bad by early war standards), but I do think he overstates is point; it wasn't that bad at the time, but it wasn't as good as he seems to think it is. The IJN would have been better served adopting one of the German 37mm Flak guns - they even had a Navy model that was essentially a 37mm version of the Bofors 40mm L60.
 

ATP

Well-known member
I agree somewhat with the general gist of the video(the Type 96, like many of the Japanese weapons, wasn't bad by early war standards), but I do think he overstates is point; it wasn't that bad at the time, but it wasn't as good as he seems to think it is. The IJN would have been better served adopting one of the German 37mm Flak guns - they even had a Navy model that was essentially a 37mm version of the Bofors 40mm L60.
Another possibility - in OTL japan captured and copied soviet AT 45mm gun/upgraged copy of german 37mm/
If they take soviet 37mm AA gun/copy of Bofors/ they could do the same.
Alternative - Poland in 1939 had very good relations with Japan and produced 40mm Bofors.Let assume,that we gave them blueprints.
 

gral

Well-known member
Another possibility - in OTL japan captured and copied soviet AT 45mm gun/upgraged copy of german 37mm/
If they take soviet 37mm AA gun/copy of Bofors/ they could do the same.
Alternative - Poland in 1939 had very good relations with Japan and produced 40mm Bofors.Let assume,that we gave them blueprints.

Historically, Japan got their hands on the Bofors when they captured Singapore, but they only managed to produce prototypes of the Japanese model by 1945(something that is a bit surprising - the Bofors was well-suited for Japanese industrial processes, being a gun that was largely hand-built). This tells me that, to have the Bofors in time to make a bit of a difference, they should get it by 1939 at the latest, by 1937 would be better.

This limits a bit the Japanese options - getting the blueprints from the Polish would be about their last chance of getting it in time for WWII. This is why I mentioned the German 37mm guns - I don't think the Japanese would be able to get their hands on the Russian 37mm in Nomonhan - it would have been a newly-introduced gun by then(and Lake Khasan was earlier than its introduction). OTOH, German 37mm guns, whether the most common Flak 18/36/37 or the rare M36 Navy gun(the Bofors analogue which would be the base for the Flak M42 Navy gun) would be available in time for Japan to establish a production line before WWII.

I don't think the Japanese would go for German guns though, at least not before 1937 - historically, the Japanese arms industry had ties to French and British industry, and they would go for guns of those countries preferentially - the Type 95/96 was a replacement for the 2-pdr Pom-Pom in IJN service. I think Schneider had a decent 37mm gun that they exported in small numbers, but I'm not sure.
 

ATP

Well-known member
Historically, Japan got their hands on the Bofors when they captured Singapore, but they only managed to produce prototypes of the Japanese model by 1945(something that is a bit surprising - the Bofors was well-suited for Japanese industrial processes, being a gun that was largely hand-built). This tells me that, to have the Bofors in time to make a bit of a difference, they should get it by 1939 at the latest, by 1937 would be better.

This limits a bit the Japanese options - getting the blueprints from the Polish would be about their last chance of getting it in time for WWII. This is why I mentioned the German 37mm guns - I don't think the Japanese would be able to get their hands on the Russian 37mm in Nomonhan - it would have been a newly-introduced gun by then(and Lake Khasan was earlier than its introduction). OTOH, German 37mm guns, whether the most common Flak 18/36/37 or the rare M36 Navy gun(the Bofors analogue which would be the base for the Flak M42 Navy gun) would be available in time for Japan to establish a production line before WWII.

I don't think the Japanese would go for German guns though, at least not before 1937 - historically, the Japanese arms industry had ties to French and British industry, and they would go for guns of those countries preferentially - the Type 95/96 was a replacement for the 2-pdr Pom-Pom in IJN service. I think Schneider had a decent 37mm gun that they exported in small numbers, but I'm not sure.

I knew that polish destroyers buyed from France/Burza and Wicher/ had 2 37 AAmm guns each.
And Poland produced land version of 40mm Bofors,but also semi mobile versions for fortyfications,which i think could be easily changed into sea versions.
When Japaneese ambassador abadonned Poland,they could take blueprints with them.and even few guns evacuated to Romania,if they insist that it is property of Japan.
 

gral

Well-known member
I knew that polish destroyers buyed from France/Burza and Wicher/ had 2 37 AAmm guns each.

These were, if they were 37mm guns, almost certainly the Mle.1925 AA gun - a manual loading gun with a practical ROF of 15-21 shots/minute. Wikipedia says they had the wz.28 AA gun(2-pdr Pom-Pom), but they(and the sources quoted) may have got it wrong.

EDIT: Looking around, I found out both Schneider and Hotchkiss had 37mm auto guns to offer, with Schneider having at least two models, the Mle.1930(used in small numbers by the French Army, bought as a stopgap when war approached), and an export model built for the Romanians. Hotchkiss built a gun for the French Navy competition which seemed to be pretty mediocre, but a mediocre 37mm would have been(a bit) better than the Type 96.
 
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ATP

Well-known member
These were, if they were 37mm guns, almost certainly the Mle.1925 AA gun - a manual loading gun with a practical ROF of 15-21 shots/minute. Wikipedia says they had the wz.28 AA gun(2-pdr Pom-Pom), but they(and the sources quoted) may have got it wrong.

EDIT: Looking around, I found out both Schneider and Hotchkiss had 37mm auto guns to offer, with Schneider having at least two models, the Mle.1930(used in small numbers by the French Army, bought as a stopgap when war approached), and an export model built for the Romanians. Hotchkiss built a gun for the French Navy competition which seemed to be pretty mediocre, but a mediocre 37mm would have been(a bit) better than the Type 96.

I read /about polish destroyers/ in old book about polish weapons from 1939 till 1970,unfortunatelly it lost front page,so i do not knew title.
 

Husky_Khan

The Dog Whistler... I mean Whisperer.
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USS Arizona near the Brooklyn Bridge in 1916 New York.

ayl19js9j5481.jpg


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LordSunhawk

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Less "a ship" and more "a fleet."

This is the Grand Fleet in the Firth of Forth, one of its two principle bases in the Great War alongside Scapa Flow.

3ec8fee733d9907e740a823d4512f229.jpg


I find it to be both a majestic and painful reminder that Britannia once ruled the waves.
You do realize that those are cage masts, IE these are USN Standards standing into Scapa Flow :cool:
 

Lord Sovereign

Well-known member
You do realize that those are cage masts, IE these are USN Standards standing into Scapa Flow :cool:

I...I'm not sure about that. If you look closely the main column have tripod masts instead of the cages, and the uniforms are all wrong for the US Navy. The ones further out might be some of your battleships, and I do recall that a fleet (the 8th I think) was deployed to that neck of the woods towards the end of the war. But this is a Royal Navy centric image.
 

bintananth

behind a desk
I...I'm not sure about that. If you look closely the main column have tripod masts instead of the cages, and the uniforms are all wrong for the US Navy. The ones further out might be some of your battleships, and I do recall that a fleet (the 8th I think) was deployed to that neck of the woods towards the end of the war. But this is a Royal Navy centric image.
That was taken from an RN ship. The uniforms in the foreground are RN. The ships in the distance are not.
 

killerofa23

Well-known member
I would argue that shinano is the unluckiest of the lot only reason she was commissioned was so they could move her to finish fitting out was sunk enroute by archerfish
 

Bacle

When the effort is no longer profitable...
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I would argue that shinano is the unluckiest of the lot only reason she was commissioned was so they could move her to finish fitting out was sunk enroute by archerfish
Either her or Kumano, who had her bow blown off like 3 times, and kept being repaired.
 

Harlock

I should have expected that really
I...I'm not sure about that. If you look closely the main column have tripod masts instead of the cages, and the uniforms are all wrong for the US Navy. The ones further out might be some of your battleships, and I do recall that a fleet (the 8th I think) was deployed to that neck of the woods towards the end of the war. But this is a Royal Navy centric image.
Yes, ships in row on the right are British, the group in the distance are American.
6HrCLEq.jpg

It is interesting to contrast the two world wars, here the US was the junior partner deploying a fleet which was integrated into the RN and served under overall British command. The RN trained them up, taught them British gunnery drills and tactics before deploying as a joint force.
Decades later you see that reversed with the RN Pacific fleet forming a part of the US fleet under US command learning the art of long range carrier ops and forming an element of the joint force.

As an aside the US contribution was designated the 6th Battlesquadron (The 5th were built around the QE class) and after a lot of drill were considered able to sail with the Grand Fleet as equals. Toward the end of the war the Germans tried one last sortie sailing their entire fleet out with the Grand Fleet deployed to meet them. Both sides missed each other so there was no battle, but due to the order of deployment at the time the US fleet happened to be at the front.
If that battle had happened, the probable last great battleship fight, it would have been the USN leading the way. Hopefully not getting sunk in the process :p

The alternate is also true, if the US had missed Yamato and failed to spot her sudden change of course the closest allied force was the RN Pacific fleet which would have been the first point of contact in a surface fight.
 
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