Validity of Left-Right Divide Concerns

[LifeisTiresome]

Also, Leftists suckle the teats of the corporations and support corporations and are their footsoldiers for all their talk of fighting the man. They care about the common person about as much as the corporations do which is nothing. The common person exists for a lefty to show off how virtuous they are until said person is shown or does wrong think upon which the leftist turns and berates and hates him/her.

 

[Typhonis]

I don't talk politics on SB. Not when they keep talking about Trump Cheating? WTF? What keeps the Dems from cheating? I mean what makes them think the Dems are the good guys? Kamal Harris? The Governor of New York who may be an actual Nazi from how he is acting? The fact the DA of Portland will not prosecute Left-Wing protestors but right-wingers go to jail? I'm tired of it. Hell they laughed at me a few months ago when I posted about being worried about mail in voting.

 

[LifeisTiresome]

Here is an interesting point, leftists can't stop bitching about how much they hate corporations and how education is so expensive.

Colleges and universities are all leftist controlled and yet these same institutions demand exorbitant fees from students and yet they decry capitalism and racism which shows that the controllers of these institutions are leftists and yet they act like this showing that they don't care about people or the students at all.

Leftists support and are supported by the corporations and don't really attack them anymore and infact defend the corporations and are fully willing to buy their products fueling them with money to own the manbabies. These very same leftists who can't stop bitching about how evil corporations are and how people being labelled is bad.

Leftists are morally bankrupt and their position is hypocritical and bullshit.

 

[Rocinante]

Also, to reiterate, I have been on both sides.

Believe me, it was FAR easier and felt far safer to be a left winger and have all the major cultural institutions on my side

I'm not just speaking from a bubble. I'm speaking from living both experiences. I didn't choose to lean right because it was easier.

If I wanted easier and safer, I'd just be a lefty.

But that is not an option for me. I must live by my principles.

 

[LifeisTiresome]

Also, to reiterate, I have been on both sides.

Believe me, it was FAR easier and felt far safer to be a left winger and have all the major cultural institutions on my side

I'm not just speaking from a bubble. I'm speaking from living both experiences. I didn't choose to lean right because it was easier.

If I wanted easier and safer, I'd just be a lefty.

Indeed. Thats the amazing contradiction of the left. They act as if they are the underdog, the rebel against the man. They are the man. They just don't realize or willfully ignore it.

Media, Academia and corporations have pretty much destroyed the family unit. They are just doing it slowly. Instead of accepting this, you have retarded street leftists and brave and stunning authors demand annihilation now.

 

[Typhonis]

So the Left has become the very thing they hate? The Man.

 

[Rocinante]

So the Left has become the very thing they hate? The Man.

They have been all along.

For quite a while at least

 

[Xilizhra]

They have been all along.

For quite a while at least

Well, when the right has the presidency, the Senate, the Supreme Court, and large swathes of state governments, one questions whether the left as a whole can be said to be "the man."

 

[Bacle]

Well, when the right has the presidency, the Senate, the Supreme Court, and large swathes of state governments, one questions whether the left as a whole can be said to be "the man."

The Left own most media, have control of Cali and New York, most of the major metro areas, the public schools, the tech industry, and many financing groups/banks.

The Left has had control of these things for a long time, and it is only because of Trump reinventing/reinvigorating the GOP that they do not have effective control over everything else.

I am an ex-Dem, and I have no problem saying that I do not think they will settle for anything except complete control of the country, in perpetuity.

The Right feels like we are fighting for survival, where as the Left are simply fighting for power.

So, please, explain what the Left is willing to admit the Right have legit grievances about, and stop acting like the Right is the group that has to compromise to deescalate things.

 

[Xilizhra]

The Left own most media, have control of Cali and New York, most of the major metro areas, the public schools, the tech industry, and many financing groups/banks.

The Left has had control of these things for a long time, and it is only because of Trump reinventing/reinvigorating the GOP that they do not have effective control over everything else.

I am an ex-Dem, and I have no problem saying that I do not think they will settle for anything except complete control of the country, in perpetuity.

The Right feels like we are fighting for survival, where as the Left are simply fighting for power.

So, please, explain what the Left is willing to admit the Right have legit grievances about, and stop acting like the Right is the group that has to compromise to deescalate things.

Hm. Some of the gun initiatives have gone too far, familial stability (albeit not in a heteronormative sense) is more important than a lot of leftists give credit for, social atomization is an extremely bad thing, and I think we can all agree on breaking up oligarchical control of media, finance, and politics; a massive purge of lobbyists would do a lot of good. For instance.

 

[Bear Ribs]

I would say the Left has some legitimate concerns for a certainty. Health care is a major problem that needs fixing, and while I don't agree entirely with how Obamacare rolled out* it's something that needs addressing and the Right isn't handling it. I also think social safety nets are an important thing that the Right hasn't handled well. We need better protections for the weakest members of society and while, again, I don't always agree with how the Left wants to handle it I'll acknowledge that they tried.

That said I'm somewhat single-issue, being mostly focused on Gun Rights due to personal experience and a desire to be able to protect myself. Consequently I swing far more to the right when there's Supreme Court Justices on the line since the Left has shown an extreme willingness to violate the law against guns, and only the Justices have kept guns in the hands of the people.


*My insurance premiums skyrocketed once I was required to pay them rather than it being optional. For the 8 years of Bush my insurance went up an average of about 10% a year and my deductible increased from 200 to 300 dollars. During the 8 years of Obama my insurance went up an average of 25% a year and my deductible increased from 300 to 1,000 dollars.

 

[LifeisTiresome]

Well, when the right has the presidency, the Senate, the Supreme Court, and large swathes of state governments, one questions whether the left as a whole can be said to be "the man."

Even though nearly all the Celebrities, Media, Academia, Corporations, Mainstream Catholics and Pope and Anglican and Lutheran Churches, NGOs, big organizations and foreign governments are all leftists or support leftists. Leftists still aren't the man cause they don't have complete and absolute control over everything

Fuck off, you power hungry lacking self awareness leftist shill.

 

[LordsFire]

Well, when the right has the presidency, the Senate, the Supreme Court, and large swathes of state governments, one questions whether the left as a whole can be said to be "the man."

You asked for some specific views people often feel afraid to express around leftists/in leftist controlled spaces. I'll offer a few:

1. Trump is not Hitler. He is not a fascist. He is not an authoritarian. He's a somewhat abrasive type-A personality who has a policy of hitting back against whoever attacks him.

2. Unborn babies are people, and have a right to life. This includes unborn female babies. I am not 'trying to control a woman's body,' I'm saying a pregnant woman does not have the right to kill someone because she doesn't want to be pregnant. If you can convince me that an unborn baby is not a person, I will not have any problem with abortion any more.

3. Aside from fringe cases, gender dysphoria is a mental issue, not a physical one. Yes, I understand that there are some extreme outliers who have strange physiologies that can accurately be described as something like 'intersex.' The majority of people who are 'trans' do not actually have these physical irregularities, and are instead suffering from a mental disorder. That said, if they are adults, they can do what they want with their own bodies, but they do not have a right to force their own demands on other people.

4. Socialism in all forms is destructive. This includes government-operated 'social safety nets.' Once you make it a 'right' to have someone else pay you not to work, you will massively disincentivize working, as well as a whole host of other things. There's a long, long list of social ills that can be directly linked to the creation and expansion of the welfare state, and if it were phased out (because I recognize that trying to just remove it all at once would cause more harm than good), it would be better for everyone, especially the people caught in intergenerational welfare dependence and poverty.

5. Systemic racism, such that it actually exists, exists in the cultural values and political policies of the Democrat Party. They deliberately used the welfare state to destroy the black family, they aggressively support and push toxic cultural values for the black community, and actively undermine policies like school choice/voucher systems that would help lift them (and other financially hurting groups) out of poverty. Outside of these depraved institutions of the political left, systemic racism is not a national problem.

6. Marriage is, by definition, between one man and one woman. Anything else is unhealthy. To explain this in further detail would require a very long philosophical explanation that I cannot put into a single paragraph and do justice.

7. Any form of sex outside of marriage is unethical. This includes cheating, sex before you're married, and all other forms. Normalization of sexual promiscuity has been one of the most destructive forces in western culture since the sixties, and is the other primary cause of the breakdown of the family unit alongside the welfare state.

8. 'Separation of church and state' as a concept means that the government doesn't get to favor or disfavor any religion, not that atheists get to kick Christians out of public discourse and government offices and use their religion to try to reshape the nation as they see fit. Theocracy is bad, regardless of which religion is running it.

9. The primary reason most people are chronically poor is because of their own bad decisions. Note 'most' and 'chronically.' People can just have a bad year where things fly apart mostly through no fault of their own, but if they are making responsible decisions 99% of the time they will not stay poor and destitute. The second leading cause of poverty is poor parenting. 'The man keeping you down' is not even in the top ten causes, not in the USA at least. I say this as someone who has been poor and homeless myself. I've seen what that looks like, both in me, and in others, and the largest part of it is simply people refusing to be responsible.

10. Nobody bears responsibility for the sins of their parents or ancestors. Everyone should be judged on their own merits, and by the content of their character, not the color of their skin. Blaming white people for what other white people did in the past is racist.


There's a few for you.

 

[Rocinante]

You asked for some specific views people often feel afraid to express around leftists/in leftist controlled spaces. I'll offer a few:

1. Trump is not Hitler. He is not a fascist. He is not an authoritarian. He's a somewhat abrasive type-A personality who has a policy of hitting back against whoever attacks him.

2. Unborn babies are people, and have a right to life. This includes unborn female babies. I am not 'trying to control a woman's body,' I'm saying a pregnant woman does not have the right to kill someone because she doesn't want to be pregnant. If you can convince me that an unborn baby is not a person, I will not have any problem with abortion any more.

3. Aside from fringe cases, gender dysphoria is a mental issue, not a physical one. Yes, I understand that there are some extreme outliers who have strange physiologies that can accurately be described as something like 'intersex.' The majority of people who are 'trans' do not actually have these physical irregularities, and are instead suffering from a mental disorder. That said, if they are adults, they can do what they want with their own bodies, but they do not have a right to force their own demands on other people.

4. Socialism in all forms is destructive. This includes government-operated 'social safety nets.' Once you make it a 'right' to have someone else pay you not to work, you will massively disincentivize working, as well as a whole host of other things. There's a long, long list of social ills that can be directly linked to the creation and expansion of the welfare state, and if it were phased out (because I recognize that trying to just remove it all at once would cause more harm than good), it would be better for everyone, especially the people caught in intergenerational welfare dependence and poverty.

5. Systemic racism, such that it actually exists, exists in the cultural values and political policies of the Democrat Party. They deliberately used the welfare state to destroy the black family, they aggressively support and push toxic cultural values for the black community, and actively undermine policies like school choice/voucher systems that would help lift them (and other financially hurting groups) out of poverty. Outside of these depraved institutions of the political left, systemic racism is not a national problem.

6. Marriage is, by definition, between one man and one woman. Anything else is unhealthy. To explain this in further detail would require a very long philosophical explanation that I cannot put into a single paragraph and do justice.

7. Any form of sex outside of marriage is unethical. This includes cheating, sex before you're married, and all other forms. Normalization of sexual promiscuity has been one of the most destructive forces in western culture since the sixties, and is the other primary cause of the breakdown of the family unit alongside the welfare state.

8. 'Separation of church and state' as a concept means that the government doesn't get to favor or disfavor any religion, not that atheists get to kick Christians out of public discourse and government offices and use their religion to try to reshape the nation as they see fit. Theocracy is bad, regardless of which religion is running it.

9. The primary reason most people are chronically poor is because of their own bad decisions. Note 'most' and 'chronically.' People can just have a bad year where things fly apart mostly through no fault of their own, but if they are making responsible decisions 99% of the time they will not stay poor and destitute. The second leading cause of poverty is poor parenting. 'The man keeping you down' is not even in the top ten causes, not in the USA at least. I say this as someone who has been poor and homeless myself. I've seen what that looks like, both in me, and in others, and the largest part of it is simply people refusing to be responsible.

10. Nobody bears responsibility for the sins of their parents or ancestors. Everyone should be judged on their own merits, and by the content of their character, not the color of their skin. Blaming white people for what other white people did in the past is racist.


There's a few for you.

Thanks for sharing this.

See, I don't even actually agree with a lot of this list, but he and I can talk about it, and we can then agree to disagree on things, after coming to a understanding with each other. We come out of it understanding one another better.

We have a LOT of problems trying that with most left wingers. It gets us deplatformed, banned, even fired.

These views could cause lordsfire a lot of problems in today's society. They get him labeled a Nazi, misogynist, etc.

I agree with some of them to varying degrees, some of them I think are too far, and many times we have discussed them and had meaningful, productive conversations, but I'm practically a left winger compared to some of his stances, and yet I face just as much hate as him. ESPECIALLY for point #1.

Try that shit in a left wing place, it doesn't work.

 

[Xilizhra]

Well, I'll bite.

1. Trump is not Hitler. He is not a fascist. He is not an authoritarian. He's a somewhat abrasive type-A personality who has a policy of hitting back against whoever attacks him.

Too subjective to be worth arguing over.

2. Unborn babies are people, and have a right to life. This includes unborn female babies. I am not 'trying to control a woman's body,' I'm saying a pregnant woman does not have the right to kill someone because she doesn't want to be pregnant. If you can convince me that an unborn baby is not a person, I will not have any problem with abortion any more.

Personally, I just define personhood as sapience. I also believe that no one has the right to determine what anyone else does with their internal organs, including providing life support.

3. Aside from fringe cases, gender dysphoria is a mental issue, not a physical one. Yes, I understand that there are some extreme outliers who have strange physiologies that can accurately be described as something like 'intersex.' The majority of people who are 'trans' do not actually have these physical irregularities, and are instead suffering from a mental disorder. That said, if they are adults, they can do what they want with their own bodies, but they do not have a right to force their own demands on other people.

If this is the case, it's a condition completely untreatable by any wholly mental means, but which treatment of by physiological ones has been quite successful, so... potato, potato, really. I've also never really seen the profit in not using anyone's preferred pronouns; why is that even an issue worth fighting for?

4. Socialism in all forms is destructive. This includes government-operated 'social safety nets.' Once you make it a 'right' to have someone else pay you not to work, you will massively disincentivize working, as well as a whole host of other things. There's a long, long list of social ills that can be directly linked to the creation and expansion of the welfare state, and if it were phased out (because I recognize that trying to just remove it all at once would cause more harm than good), it would be better for everyone, especially the people caught in intergenerational welfare dependence and poverty.

We could actually come to an accord on this one if employment was guaranteed, living wages were fair, and there were still provisions for disability/children/other such issues.

5. Systemic racism, such that it actually exists, exists in the cultural values and political policies of the Democrat Party. They deliberately used the welfare state to destroy the black family, they aggressively support and push toxic cultural values for the black community, and actively undermine policies like school choice/voucher systems that would help lift them (and other financially hurting groups) out of poverty. Outside of these depraved institutions of the political left, systemic racism is not a national problem.

I find this to be flagrantly untrue, but I can't answer it all in a soundbite.

6. Marriage is, by definition, between one man and one woman. Anything else is unhealthy. To explain this in further detail would require a very long philosophical explanation that I cannot put into a single paragraph and do justice.

Then in all fairness, I'll wait until you post it somewhere.

7. Any form of sex outside of marriage is unethical. This includes cheating, sex before you're married, and all other forms. Normalization of sexual promiscuity has been one of the most destructive forces in western culture since the sixties, and is the other primary cause of the breakdown of the family unit alongside the welfare state.

No, cannot say that I find any agreement here.

8. 'Separation of church and state' as a concept means that the government doesn't get to favor or disfavor any religion, not that atheists get to kick Christians out of public discourse and government offices and use their religion to try to reshape the nation as they see fit. Theocracy is bad, regardless of which religion is running it.

Atheism is not a religion. If it was, Marxist-Leninists and Objectivists would have the same religion. Atheism is simply a lack of any specific beliefs.

9. The primary reason most people are chronically poor is because of their own bad decisions. Note 'most' and 'chronically.' People can just have a bad year where things fly apart mostly through no fault of their own, but if they are making responsible decisions 99% of the time they will not stay poor and destitute. The second leading cause of poverty is poor parenting. 'The man keeping you down' is not even in the top ten causes, not in the USA at least. I say this as someone who has been poor and homeless myself. I've seen what that looks like, both in me, and in others, and the largest part of it is simply people refusing to be responsible.

Experiences clearly vary here, but it would be anecdote vs. anecdote. That said, I do agree with you to a degree on the parenting issue, though targeted education might be able to help with that.

10. Nobody bears responsibility for the sins of their parents or ancestors. Everyone should be judged on their own merits, and by the content of their character, not the color of their skin. Blaming white people for what other white people did in the past is racist.

For their ancestors, no. But the question is often one of currently living systems. The past is never dead, and it's very frequently not even really past.

 

[LordsFire]

You have demonstrated yourself capable of responding to disagreeing positions with calm 'I disagree' statements. Congratulations, you aren't part of the problem with today's political discourse. Honestly, in my experience, most leftists are like you.

Leftists in power though, have shown a much, much more sadistic and authoritarian bent.

 

[Terthna]

Thanks for sharing this.

See, I don't even actually agree with a lot of this list, but he and I can talk about it, and we can then agree to disagree on things, after coming to a understanding with each other. We come out of it understanding one another better.

We have a LOT of problems trying that with most left wingers. It gets us deplatformed, banned, even fired.

These views could cause lordsfire a lot of problems in today's society. They get him labeled a Nazi, misogynist, etc.

I agree with some of them to varying degrees, some of them I think are too far, and many times we have discussed them and had meaningful, productive conversations, but I'm practically a left winger compared to some of his stances, and yet I face just as much hate as him. ESPECIALLY for point #1.

Try that shit in a left wing place, it doesn't work.

I'll admit to being way more frustrated, even angry, about many of the positions he's argued. But, at the end of the day, I understand that the point isn't to beat him; to prove that I'm right, and he's wrong. Rather, it's for both of us to express our views, facilitate understanding and find areas where we can compromise, while developing a tolerance where we cannot so that we can coexist peacefully.

And on those few issues where even tolerance is too much to ask? That's what the government is for; both sides present their case, and the government (ideally) makes a decision based on what's best for society as a whole. A decision that both abides by, even though one side or the other may still complain about the result, in the interest of the mutual benefits of cooperation.

 

[GoldRanger]

I'll admit to being way more frustrated, even angry, about many of the positions he's argued.
But, at the end of the day, I understand that the point isn't to beat him; to prove that I'm right, and he's wrong. Rather, it's for both of us to express our views, facilitate understanding and find areas where we can compromise, while developing a tolerance where we cannot so that we can coexist peacefully.

Definitely this. I find his views on abortion, marriage and sex before marriage, to name a few, no less than abhorrent. Yet I'm not hitting the "report" button in panic, like a leftist would. That's currently the difference between rhe two sides. The right wing follows Enlightenment values (with a certain portion also following religious values that I strongly disagree with), which allows us to discuss our views in a free and safe environment, while today's left wing seems to be following purely Marxist authoritarian values that emphasize endless struggle between identities, with no tolerance for any sort of dissent.

It's not a matter of leftist views being all bad (which some of them are and some aren't, just like with the right), but the overall culture they chose to embrace as a collective.

I don't even consider myself right wing, more of a centrist, but while in the 90's it might have been different, today I can't bring myself to side with the left, with its herd mentality and willingness to destroy democracy and most freedoms to get their way, no matter how much I agree with them on some issues.

 

[Aldarion]

Personally, I just define personhood as sapience. I also believe that no one has the right to determine what anyone else does with their internal organs, including providing life support.

Baby is not an internal organ. It is an organism which is developing within another. Organ is defined by genetic compatibility and belonging to an organism - but baby has to be fed through placenta because otherwise mother's immune system would attack the baby. If that isn't enough of proof that baby is, in fact, a separate living being from the very beginning - and thus should be treated as such - I don't know what will be.

 

[GoldRanger]

Baby is not an internal organ. It is an organism which is developing within another. Organ is defined by genetic compatibility and belonging to an organism - but baby has to be fed through placenta because otherwise mother's immune system would attack the baby. If that isn't enough of proof that baby is, in fact, a separate living being from the very beginning - and thus should be treated as such - I don't know what will be.

Please don't derail the thread. I happen to agree with Xilizhra on abortion, but if we turn this into a multi-post debate on abortion it's not going to end any time soon, and the mods will just move everything to a separate thread. And we've already debated this to death in other threads as is.