Validity of Left-Right Divide Concerns

[Xilizhra]

Left and leftist always had valid concerns - But:
1.They belive in possibility of building Earthy Paradise - which means revolution,genocide,hell on earth - and finally new oligarhy ruling.Which do not care about any concerns other then their power.

2.Current leftist are funded and used by oligarchs like Soros who do not care about anything other then their power.Which means,that talking to leftist has no sense,we should just talk to Soros.

All in all - they are puppets who have no power,and even if they have real power,they would use it to create hell on Earth.

You realize that plenty of leftists say the exact same things about you, right? Just with the oligarchs having different names. Personally, I doubt that you receive Kochbucks any more than I receive Sorosbucks, and I'm here because I want to foster better dialogue between two riven sides that are full of misunderstandings of each other.

 

[LifeisTiresome]

You realize that plenty of leftists say the exact same things about you, right? Just with the oligarchs having different names. Personally, I doubt that you receive Kochbucks any more than I receive Sorosbucks, and I'm here because I want to foster better dialogue between two riven sides that are full of misunderstandings of each other.

We are well aware that leftists think we are monsters. So what? Its always the same with you guys, please understand the leftists, please prove that you are not this or that, please concede and give into our demands.

Enough is enough.

 

[Xilizhra]

We are well aware that leftists think we are monsters. So what? Its always the same with you guys, please understand the leftists, please prove that you are not this or that, please concede and give into our demands.

Enough is enough.

What I'm trying to get across is that you say very similar things about the other side being monsters (like what ATP said about us building Hell on Earth), and that I don't believe that either of us are monsters.

 

[LifeisTiresome]

What I'm trying to get across is that you say very similar things about the other side being monsters (like what ATP said about us building Hell on Earth), and that I don't believe that either of us are monsters.

And? Your point is a worthless gotcha. We know that Leftists think we are monsters who deserve to die. They can't keep quiet about it and say it openly without issue. But we of course can't do the same usually and what we always get is people like you coming in and chastising non-leftists to care about the feelings of leftists and how we need to compromise aka cower and surrender to the left.

 

[Bacle]

You realize that plenty of leftists say the exact same things about you, right? Just with the oligarchs having different names. Personally, I doubt that you receive Kochbucks any more than I receive Sorosbucks, and I'm here because I want to foster better dialogue between two riven sides that are full of misunderstandings of each other.

If you want to foster dialog, then you need to realize that the Left spouts far more lies about what the Right thinks, and why, than vis versa.

I am a former Dem, of the classical liberal (now South Park Conservative) type, who is here because my blinders came off and realized the Right is far more honest and tolerant than the Left.

I'll be blunt, the only 'Leftist' concerns that serious validity anymore, and isn't just a bunch of misinterpretations of the Right, are as follows:

1) Environmental concerns; the Right has been negligent in addressing environmental issues and shrugged them off as 'only Lefties care about that/climate data is all lies'. Trump has actually been much more environmentally concious than most GOP noms/POTUS's for a long time, and has permamently funded the Nat'l Parks like people have been asking for, for years.

2) Concerns about laws that could open the door to theocratic groups gaining power in government, and harming separation of Church and State. These are mostly overblown, but there are definitely wanna-be theocratic in the GOP's base, and people who think the Enlightenment was a mistake.

3) Racists in the GOP base are a somewhat legit concern, and they do try to hide in plain sight under a veil of respectability sometimes. This is a small, and shrinking, portion of the GOP base; most racism these days is the 'racism of low expectations' the Left engages in.

Other than that, most Lefty concerns are globalist/Marxist BS prettied up to sell to the US public, or outright falsehoods sold to them by the media.

 

[GoldRanger]

What I'm trying to get across is that you say very similar things about the other side being monsters (like what ATP said about us building Hell on Earth), and that I don't believe that either of us are monsters.

Right now the overt, nation-wide violence and instability is coming from the left, not the right. That's one objective, observable truth you can't really argue, other than by lying (it's actually invisible white supremacists instigating and provoking the rioters!) or by trying to minimize or trivialize them ("only" 7% are riots!) or actually rationalizing and justifying them (these completely innocent people's lives and livelihood was ruined for a totally awesome cause!)

 

[Tiamat]

My two cents, for what it's worth. The moment we essentially stop talking to each other and the bullets start flying, is the day the Republic dies. I'm pretty sure nobody wants that. Though granted, there isn't much talking to each other right now, more like at each other. And some bullets have already flown.

Folks, we are on a slippery slope, and going by history if we all keep sliding down this it won't end well for anyone involved. It won't be some "glorious" battle like Gettysburg, it will be more like goddamn Somalia and the former Yugoslavia. Maybe not this year or the next, but soon if everyone gives up on any form of civility. If we've gotten to the point both sides are utterly convinced the other side is evil and unrepentant monsters, if we don't step back from this...we know how it ends.

I may not agree with Xilizhra on some issues, I don't know for sure what exactly as I don't know her personally, but she's at least trying to spark some sort of dialogue, which says a lot more about her than some others right now.

 

[Rocinante]

The "right" has been responsible for a few protests and incidents that got violent.

The left is responsible for over 100 days in a row of violent riots.

The media has been covering for them.

The right is silenced, shamed, and lied about constantly. The media covers for the left, as soon as one right wing person steps out of line, the media is all over it.

I used to be a left winger. I'm not anymore, especially not after witnessing all the blatant lies, and the fact that they VAST majority of political violence is coming from the left, and that they have almost the ENTIRE mainstream media behind them, with the major tech industry also working to silence the right.

I'm for dialogue. It was dialogue that turned me away from the left.

We. Are. Not. The. Same.

 

[LifeisTiresome]

My two cents, for what it's worth. The moment we essentially stop talking to each other and the bullets start flying, is the day the Republic dies. I'm pretty sure nobody wants that. Though granted, there isn't much talking to each other right now, more like at each other. And some bullets have already flown.

Folks, we are on a slippery slope, and going by history if we all keep sliding down this it won't end well for anyone involved. It won't be some "glorious" battle like Gettysburg, it will be more like goddamn Somalia and the former Yugoslavia. Maybe not this year or the next, but soon if everyone gives up on any form of civility. If we've gotten to the point both sides are utterly convinced the other side is evil and unrepentant monsters, if we don't step back from this...we know how it ends.

I may not agree with Xilizhra on some issues, I don't know for sure what exactly as I don't know her personally, but she's at least trying to spark some sort of dialogue, which says a lot more about her than some others right now.

The issue with discussion is that it boils down to just giving the left everything they want upon which they will come up with new demands and rage at you until you give it to them. hence why I say that enough is enough.

 

[Duke Nukem]

The "right" has been responsible for a few protests and incidents that got violent.

The left is responsible for over 100 days in a row of violent riots.

The media has been covering for them.

The right is silenced, shamed, and lied about constantly. The media covers for the left, as soon as one right wing person steps out of line, the media is all over it.

I used to be a left winger. I'm not anymore, especially not after witnessing all the blatant lies, and the fact that they VAST majority of political violence is coming from the left.

We. Are. Not. The. Same.

Indeed. I dont see right wingers burning down neighborhoods or shooting biden supporters in the head like the left does to us.

 

[Xilizhra]

And? Your point is a worthless gotcha. We know that Leftists think we are monsters who deserve to die. They can't keep quiet about it and say it openly without issue. But we of course can't do the same usually and what we always get is people like you coming in and chastising non-leftists to care about the feelings of leftists and how we need to compromise aka cower and surrender to the left.

I'm rather good friends with a self-declared fascist. This isn't about chastising non-leftists; I'm willing to deal in good faith with anyone who's willing to do the same. It's just that faith is a two-way street.

If you want to foster dialog, then you need to realize that the Left spouts far more lies about what the Right thinks, and why, than vis versa.

Do you understand why this isn't a particularly good opener? "You're wrong and liars" isn't going to help things much if your goal is to foster any sort of dialogue.

Right now the overt, nation-wide violence and instability is coming from the left, not the right. That's one objective, observable truth you can't really argue, other than by lying (it's actually invisible white supremacists instigating and provoking the rioters!) or by trying to minimize or trivialize them ("only" 7% are riots!) or actually rationalizing and justifying them (these completely innocent people's lives and livelihood was ruined for a totally awesome cause!)

I am not for victimizing anyone innocent. There are things I could dispute here, but that's not the point at the moment.

My two cents, for what it's worth. The moment we essentially stop talking to each other and the bullets start flying, is the day the Republic dies. I'm pretty sure nobody wants that. Though granted, there isn't much talking to each other right now, more like at each other. And some bullets have already flown.

Folks, we are on a slippery slope, and going by history if we all keep sliding down this it won't end well for anyone involved. It won't be some "glorious" battle like Gettysburg, it will be more like goddamn Somalia and the former Yugoslavia. Maybe not this year or the next, but soon if everyone gives up on any form of civility. If we've gotten to the point both sides are utterly convinced the other side is evil and unrepentant monsters, if we don't step back from this...we know how it ends.

I may not agree with Xilizhra on some issues, I don't know for sure what exactly as I don't know her personally, but she's at least trying to spark some sort of dialogue, which says a lot more about her than some others right now.

Thank you. I worry that we're half dead as it is, to be frank.

 

[Rocinante]

I'm rather good friends with a self-declared fascist. This isn't about chastising non-leftists; I'm willing to deal in good faith with anyone who's willing to do the same. It's just that faith is a two-way street.


Do you understand why this isn't a particularly good opener? "You're wrong and liars" isn't going to help things much if your goal is to foster any sort of dialogue.


I am not for victimizing anyone innocent. There are things I could dispute here, but that's not the point at the moment.


Thank you. I worry that we're half dead as it is, to be frank.

It's hard to have dialogue with people who think we are evil Nazis just for disagreeing with them.

Perhaps we could work on that, and you deserve to be treated as if you're in good faith until you prove otherwise.

I'm not accusing you of this, but you can't understand what it's like unless you live it. You have a giant media alliance on your side. You have celebrities and hollywood on your side. Most of the new TV shows that come out are full of propaganda that's on your side.. You're safe to share your opinions in public. We could lose our jobs and our livelihood, even our lives, and property.

I was doxed, for nothing more than leaning right wing. My phone number, address, parents names and address and uncle and grandmother's names and address all leaked to the internet. Because I disagreed with some left wingers. Because I DARED to walk away.

Most of us come from a site where we were forced into hiding, and then ousted by a hack, and the site's owner and staff sided with the hackers who hacked their fucking website. That's how deep this goes. A website was hacked and the owners and staff literally sided with the hackers, just because we were right wing. I'm dead serious here.

We have been burned, over and over and over again. So when someone comes around and tries to "both sides" us, it comes off as crass, and it pisses some people off.

You deserve the benefit of the doubt, but you have to understand where these people are coming from and if you wish to have a rational discussion with them you're going to have to deal with the fact that a lot of people just aren't going to trust you, because that trust has been thoroughly destroyed, time and time again.

 

[Bacle]

Do you understand why this isn't a particularly good opener? "You're wrong and liars" isn't going to help things much if your goal is to foster any sort of dialogue.

I stand by what I said.

I and other ex-Dems have seen what the other sides thinks, seen how they act, seen what they demand, and we walked away from it.

If you want dialogue to happen, it's going to have to be the Left that takes a step back from the precipice and stops lying consistantly about the Right. Us ex-Dems know it is not the Right that has pushed things to this point.

 

[Xilizhra]

It's hard to have dialogue with people who think we are evil Nazis just for disagreeing with them.

Perhaps we could work on that, and you deserve to be treated as if you're in good faith until you prove otherwise.

I'm not accusing you of this, but you can't understand what it's like unless you live it. You have a giant media alliance on your side. You have celebrities and hollywood on your side. Most of the new TV shows that come out are full of propaganda that's on your side.. You're safe to share your opinions in public. We could lose our jobs and our livelihood, even our lives, and property.

I was doxed, for nothing more than leaning right wing. My phone number, address, parents names and address and uncle and grandmother's names and address all leaked to the internet. Because I disagreed with some left wingers.

Most of us come from a site where we were forced into hiding, and then ousted by a hack, and the site's owner and staff sided with the hackers who hacked their fucking website.

We have been burned, over and over and over again. So when someone comes around and tries to "both sides" us, it comes off as crass, and it pisses some people off.

You deserve the benefit of the doubt, but you have to understand where these people are coming from and if you wish to have a rational discussion with them you're going to have to deal with the fact that a lot of people just aren't going to trust you, becUS that trust has been thoroughly destroyed, time and time again.

If you think that I would be safe sharing all of my opinions in public, you clearly don't know me very well. They would have gotten me banned entirely from Spacebattles had I gone into detail.

But we're starting to get somewhere, so: what beliefs in particular are you afraid of voicing?

 

[Rocinante]

If you think that I would be safe sharing all of my opinions in public, you clearly don't know me very well. They would have gotten me banned entirely from Spacebattles had I gone into detail.

But we're starting to get somewhere, so: what beliefs in particular are you afraid of voicing?

I am literally afraid to admit that I am a right leaner, AT ALL in public.

I've just watched, over the summer, a 100+ days of businesses being burned down, people being murdered, jobs being lost and property being destroyed by radical leftists. I've watched people lose their jobs, and I HAVE BEEN DOXED, and it was a real fucking hassle to get that information removed. I had someone call my work and try to have me fired. I am lucky my HR Dept didn't cave in.

 

[Xilizhra]

I am literally afraid to admit that I am a right leaner, AT ALL in public.

I've just watched, over the summer, a 100+ days of businesses being burned down, people being murdered, jobs being lost and property being destroyed by radical leftists. I HAVE BEEN DOXED, and it was a real fucking hassle to get that information removed.

What I'm trying to figure out is what they are specifically, if I may ask.

 

[Rocinante]

What I'm trying to figure out is what they are specifically, if I may ask.

What I am trying to tell you, is that from the perspective of people who have been consistently burned from the left, the specifics don't matter.

I disagree with the posters here all the time. We discuss it. We have been since 2015. We get heated from time to time, but I feel safe with them.

I disagree with the left, and I end up with my personal information posted online, and people calling my work trying to have me fired.

These two sides are not the same.

I respect your beliefs and your opinions. It's time for you to respect what we go through on a regular basis when dealing with leftists who "just want to talk." And claim both sides are the same. They aren't.

When you can admit that, then we can talk.

 

[Xilizhra]

What I am trying to tell you, is that from the perspective of people who have been consistently burned from the left, the specifics don't matter.

I disagree with the posters here all the time. We discuss it. We have been since 2015. We get heated from time to time, but I feel safe with them.

I disagree with the left, and I end up with my personal information posted online, and people calling my work trying to have me fired.

These two sides are not the same.

I respect your beliefs and your opinions. It's time for you to respect what we go through on a regular basis when dealing with leftists who "just want to talk." And claim both sides are the same. They aren't.

When you can admit that, then we can talk.

Well, I've been harassed and had attempts made to force me out of my job because I'm trans, so your experiences aren't entirely foreign to me. What we've lived has each been skewed in one direction or another, and I have plenty of personal reasons to detest the right. It's just that focusing on those is not going to do a damn thing to keep my girlfriend out of the line of fire, or several other people I care about.

Whatever we are or aren't the same in, what I hope is that, here and now, we both want to deescalate.

 

[LifeisTiresome]

I'm rather good friends with a self-declared fascist. This isn't about chastising non-leftists; I'm willing to deal in good faith with anyone who's willing to do the same. It's just that faith is a two-way street.

So you have a friend who says he is a fascist. Why should I care? I'm not a fascist not that I care if you call me one btw but just for debate sake. I mean, your own side discredits the "I have a black friend" and all. So why should we not hold you to your own side's standard?

Whatever we are or aren't the same in, what I hope is that, here and now, we both want to deescalate.

Your side demands utter and complete submission and capitulation. De-escalation I believe means we surrender. Also, hilarious you talk of de-escalation when its your side doing riots and speak of coups and other stuff like that. But of course we are the problem and have to make a move and yet you say you are not here to chastise. I don't believe you.

 

[Rocinante]

Well, I've been harassed and had attempts made to force me out of my job because I'm trans, so your experiences aren't entirely foreign to me. What we've lived has each been skewed in one direction or another, and I have plenty of personal reasons to detest the right. It's just that focusing on those is not going to do a damn thing to keep my girlfriend out of the line of fire, or several other people I care about.

Whatever we are or aren't the same in, what I hope is that, here and now, we both want to deescalate.

Well you don't deserve that just for being trans.

Our site owner is trans, by the way. Most of our site is right wingers and she gets treated fairly, and we respect her. There of course exceptions, but that is always the case with generalizations.

There are going to be shitty people on either side, and using generalizations will always leave room for exceptions. The right wingers, in general, have been FAR more open to discussion And kind, from my personal experience.

You've illustrated one of the differences without realizing it. You pointed out that you are afraid to share all your beliefs at SB. We are afraid of sharing ANY of our beliefs. Higher ups on their staff have literally, repeatedly, called us Nazis. They sided with the hackers who hacked their own damn site, ffs.

I'm sorry about the discrimination you've faced. You don't deserve that.