Validity of Left-Right Divide Concerns

To a degree, yes. Still better than all alternatives ever conceived by man.

Oddly enough, I think Monarchy of all things comes in a semi-second best. Because when someone with half a brain sits the throne, Kingdoms can outperform Democracies quite a bit. The trouble is when you get a "Bad King John" or a Commodus.
 
Oddly enough, I think Monarchy of all things comes in a semi-second best. Because when someone with half a brain sits the throne, Kingdoms can outperform Democracies quite a bit. The trouble is when you get a "Bad King John" or a Commodus.

Anyone know what life is like in still existing absolute monarchies? I hear Liechtenstein is really nice.

Edit: Seems Liechtenstein is actually a Constitutional Monarchy, albeit one where the Prince has a lot of political power. So doesn't really count.
 
Oddly enough, I think Monarchy of all things comes in a semi-second best. Because when someone with half a brain sits the throne, Kingdoms can outperform Democracies quite a bit. The trouble is when you get a "Bad King John" or a Commodus.

I don't have a single Monarchist bone in my body, but I get what you're saying. If you need to install a toilet, you want a plumber. If you need to build a table, you want a carpenter. And if you need a nation ruled, you want a King. A professional, who was raised, groomed and taught for this difficult job since birth, rather than some dude chosen by a popularity contest by a group of people with very... mixed intelligence, people who aren't really qualified to understand what it really takes to run a nation (and who sometimes don't understand shit about what's going on around them and just go with their gut or who the media says is the better guy, etc.). I get it. I still disagree with it, since as a "commoner" I demand some say in how to run a country that controls most aspects of my life, even if it's a small say, but I get it.

In any case, the perfect benevolent enlightened monarchy that outperforms a democracy is about as likely as a communist utopia. Power corrupts people, and a royal caste will always view the common folk like shit or like tiny cogs to be used. Whether that royal caste is literally a royal line, or the communist party.
 
To honestly answer the OP,
1: It doesn't matter. It wasn't Caesar crossing the Rubicon that made the fall of the Republic inevitable, it was Sulla's Proscriptions if not the class conflict fomented by the Gracchi. We've been living on borrowed time since the Great Society and our Republic has been doomed since the invention of the Twitter Mob. Maybe since the Bork hearings. The decline has taken time, but the damage has at best been halted by the victories of strong conservatives, never rolled back.
2: It would take a miracle.
3: Someone is going to be dictator. Dictators from the right with the very arguable exception of Hitler (The S in NDSP stands for Socialism) are generally not disastrous for their people in the first generation unless they get into an unwinnable war (which admittedly tends to happen). Dictators from the left with no exception I can think of bring ruin to their people unless their lives have already been thoroughly ruined by previous dictators from the left.

If anyone left leaning wants to push us back from the brink vote "not Democrat" all the way up and down the ticket. That's the highest polling non-Democrat in closely contested races and third party in effectively uncontested races. The only way out short of blatant divine intervention is if the Democrat Party polls third or lower in most races and enough rank and file Democrats coming to the same conclusion that the Democrat Party must be destroyed to do so nonviolently would still be miraculous. The Republicans would then need to follow through and impeach leftist judges and repeal civil service protections so that the establishment can be purged from the bureaucracy, which would take another miracle.

Things have gotten bad enough that there can be no useful discussion of issues until the Democrat Party has been destroyed. When a Green (or some other currently minor party of the left) can get into a presidential debate and a Democrat cannot only then can we begin to consider that the issues might possibly be about the issues not about excuses for the Democrat establishment to impose tyranny. Barring a miracle that will never happen. There will be no more presidential debates. Power will either fall to the chairman of the party central committee, who debates no one, or someone will be hailed Imperator to prevent that.

I think it is partly because most democratic systems are deliberately structured to be two-party affairs. Second is voters' tendency to vote "against" - basically, "I hate these guys and don't want them in power, so I will vote for these guys I hate slightly less just so the first guys don't get into power".
Few democratic systems are deliberately structured as two party affairs. Most use the parliamentary model, which encourages the formation of small king maker parties. Control of parliament is dictated by which of the big tent parties can buy the participation of enough minor parties into a governing majority, giving the minor parties disproportionate influence unless their demands are unthinkable to both of the large parties*. The American system was accidentally structured to discourage minor parties because the framers didn't think stable parties could organize across disparate states anyways. Only nations copying the American system deliberately chose two party rule.

Multiparty democracy is even worse than two party rule because without a majority party a coalition of parties representing less than a third of the MPs can hold control of the parliament hostage. Bidding for minor parties to join a coalition government takes priority over the platform of the would be ruling party. In the worst case there are two stable minority coalitions and one kingmaker party able to join either to create a majority. Preventing tyranny of the majority by enabling tyranny of the minority is not a good exchange.

There's math, but it doesn't quite tell the whole story. Under normal circumstances, the two largest parties can not coalition with each other.

Penrose voting doesn't work for political parties because it can not handle two parties with the same platform. In the US that could take the form of every state having its own formally independent branch of each actual party

* the Bloc Quebecois for example wants the districts they control to not be represented in the Canadian parliament and if they get that they can no longer support the coalition that gives it to them so there's little or no incentive to court their vote.
 
To a degree, yes. Still better than all alternatives ever conceived by man.

Yes.Althought i would add King - but electional one,just like in old Poland.To be honest,he had less power then president of USA now,but thanks to ruling for life we had no problem with elections and change of politics,like in modern USA
 
Yes.Althought i would add King - but electional one,just like in old Poland.To be honest,he had less power then president of USA now,but thanks to ruling for life we had no problem with elections and change of politics,like in modern USA
It's an issue if he changes his policies or even his character during his reign, however. People don't stay the same forever, especially people with power.
 
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@ShadowArxxy Do not try to pull that gaslighting shit about Leftist violence being 'taken out of context' or 'most riots were peaceful' crap.

We just watched a Trump supporter get murdered by an unlicenced 'security guard' in Denver over the weekend, one hired by the same media who's narrative you are playing up.

This is what I meant up-thread about the lies the Left continues to spout about the Right and about what they themselves do.

You know, I was giving @ShadowArxxy the benefit of the doubt....

But reading back, I have a hell of a suspicious feeling about her, and her gaslighting style of "debate."

Hmmm...

I think I may know who she really is, and if so, then giving the benefit of the doubt was a mistake, because if it's who I am thinking, they have certainly proved to me time and time again that they are not ever arguing in good faith.

Being a female security guard in Portland really stands out, doesn't it?

If this is who I think it is, they were continuing a Trend of gaslighting and lying that I have been familiar with for a fucking decade.
 
Forum Wide Temp Ban - Have a week off, Doxxing (even of other online identities) is not acceptable.
You know, I was giving @ShadowArxxy the benefit of the doubt....

But reading back, I have a hell of a suspicious feeling about her, and her gaslighting style of "debate."

Hmmm...

I think I may know who she really is, and if so, then giving the benefit of the doubt was a mistake, because if it's who I am thinking, they have certainly proved to me time and time again that they are not ever arguing in good faith.

Being a female security guard in Portland really stands out, doesn't it?

If this is who I think it is, they were continuing a Trend of gaslighting and lying that I have been familiar with for a fucking decade.
That's because @ShadowArxxy Redacted
 
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That's following the recognized medical protocol, which again, is very different than is claimed. The claims are exaggerated fearmongering for the specific purpose of soliciting outrage and getting conservatives to adopt anti-trans positions without any consideration of the actual facts.

Look up and read the actual law that the article mentions.

1. It specifically applies to minors and nonminors in state sponsored foster care.

2. It states that they have the right to be "involved in the development of case plan elements elements related to placement and gender affirming health care", as a specific clarification of existing law stating that all fosters have the right to be involved in their own case plans and placement plans. In both the existing law and the new law, it says that they get a say in the process, not that they have the only say or even the final say.

3. The article cites the "American College of Pediatricians", which is a fringe group with only a few hundred members. The actual professional group for American pediatricians is the American Academy of Pediatrics, which in fact endorses access to medical transition treatment.



The point is that even adults, much less children, cannot just "up and decide to get a sex change" as claimed.
1)The fact that it's state sponsored fostercare is even more horrifying and nitpicking that it's technically only this group of kids doesn't change that it's still kids being harmed by this.
2)I'm so glad the kid can agree with what the adults decide they should do. Kids at 12 don't know what they want much better than a nine year old.
3) Is there anything besides their size that's particularly bad? A few hundred doctors still sounds like they might have a clue about things.

You didn't make that last part very clear with the talk about detransition rates kind of coming out of left field tbh.
 
As a point of fact, I was specifically invited to join this site by the staff, in the name of free speech. I registered here using the exact same e-mail. I made no attempt to conceal my identity, simply using a different nickname because I don't really use the old one on anything other than old accounts.

Apparently, sharing *factual observations* in good faith, while being *proactively forthright* about the circumstances and context of those observations, is "gaslighting" because it disagrees with your interpretation of other evidence, and now you're going to double down on it with conspiracy bullshit and personal attacks.

This is fucking ridiculous.
 
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In any case, the perfect benevolent enlightened monarchy that outperforms a democracy is about as likely as a communist utopia. Power corrupts people, and a royal caste will always view the common folk like shit or like tiny cogs to be used. Whether that royal caste is literally a royal line, or the communist party.

Don't even need a perfect Monarch for that. Henry VII and Elizabeth I were deeply flawed people, but they patched up the fuck ups of their predecessors and then some. A good King can reverse a hundred years of error quite handily, which I think is a major boon to the system. Can a Democratic government undo its predecessors's errors as easily?

Besides, at the very least, whatever you think of it, Monarchy works better than socialism. That is not a high bar to clear, mind you...
 
Don't even need a perfect Monarch for that. Henry VII and Elizabeth I were deeply flawed people, but they patched up the fuck ups of their predecessors and then some. A good King can reverse a hundred years of error quite handily, which I think is a major boon to the system. Can a Democratic government undo its predecessors's errors as easily?

Yeah, but wouldn't it suck to be alive in that 100 bad years interval? The prospect of some future ruler maybe fixing things for my grandchildren (if they survive) is not a huge comfort in that scenario.

Besides, at the very least, whatever you think of it, Monarchy works better than socialism. That is not a high bar to clear, mind you...

Not going to dispute that.
 
Besides, at the very least, whatever you think of it, Monarchy works better than socialism. That is not a high bar to clear, mind you...

I cannot think of any other system of government that has managed to starve its people en masse like socialism has. 'Your people are dying by the million' is the most terminal kind of failure I can think of, and on those grounds, I cannot think of any form of government worse than socialism.
 
1)The fact that it's state sponsored fostercare is even more horrifying and nitpicking that it's technically only this group of kids doesn't change that it's still kids being harmed by this.
2)I'm so glad the kid can agree with what the adults decide they should do. Kids at 12 don't know what they want much better than a nine year old.

Minors in foster care are subject to procedural rules set by the state, because by definition the state has assumed a substantial degree of responsibility for them. This is not the state going against parental wishes; this is the state defining its wishes as the acting parent. For that matter, it's not just kids, because there are non-minors in foster care. As the actual text of the law clearly states.

Again, *letting the child have input in the process* does not equal giving the child a decision making role, which means the claim that the California law "lets minor children decide to transition without parental consent" is absolutely not true. There is absolutely nothing in that law that enables transition against parental consent; it literally only says that the child gets to have a say in the process.

3) Is there anything besides their size that's particularly bad? A few hundred doctors still sounds like they might have a clue about things.

They're an anti-LGBT fringe group that split off from the mainstream medical association when it adopted an evidence-based position in support of transition care.

What's particularly bad is not that they have a divergent opinion, but that they are the *only* medical group cited by the article you quoted, and they were cited without context in that article as if they were non-controversial experts. While you may agree or disagree with them as you see fit, they are stating their own group's ideological position, which specifically goes against the professional consensus of the medical community at large.

As I've said before, I don't believe in silencing conflicting opinions. What I am objecting to here is presenting the opinion of a very small advocacy group that is *part of the argument* as if it was a neutral expert opinion and as if it was the professional consensus, because it is neither of those things.

You didn't make that last part very clear with the talk about detransition rates kind of coming out of left field tbh.

How is it "coming out of left field"? It was a direct response to someone posting a detransition case as an argument.
 
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Yeah, but wouldn't it suck to be alive in that 100 bad years interval? The prospect of some future ruler maybe fixing things for my grandchildren (if they survive) is not a huge comfort in that scenario.

Therein is the downside. Not at all saying Monarchy is a "superior" system, but it's rather comical how Medieval Kings tended to rule better than any Communist dictator or modern technocrat. Indeed, I think Edward I did more good for this country in the long run than any Labour Prime Minister. Although on that note I must ask, what do you make of Constitutional Monarchy?
 
Civility Warning
The Boot has noticed this thread, and the Boot would like to remind everybody that while it's nice to see discussion of the divide, that doesn't mean a relaxation of the forum rules. The Boot is watching, which is distracting the Boot from anticipating the next season of The Mandalorian as the Boot would much rather be doing. Behave thyselves, or the Boot will get its laces in a knot.
 
Therein is the downside. Not at all saying Monarchy is a "superior" system, but it's rather comical how Medieval Kings tended to rule better than any Communist dictator or modern technocrat. Indeed, I think Edward I did more good for this country in the long run than any Labour Prime Minister. Although on that note I must ask, what do you make of Constitutional Monarchy?
Personally? I don't see a point in having a king just to wave his hand around, suck up taxpayer money and look pretty for the cameras. Sounds like Hollywood celebrities with extra steps.
 
*sigh* Apparently, the actual answer to, "Okay, this argument is getting heated and non-constructive. Can we shake hands and walk away at least for now?" is, "No, fuck you!"

If I was "gaslighting", I'd be claiming that you're wrong about your own observations. I am explicitly NOT doing that. I am saying that my take on the situation, based on firsthand observation in person, and not based on trusting the mainstream media's presentation of matters, is this.

Since that conflicts with your interpretation of what you've seen, I am willing to discuss that discrepancy, without assuming that you're lying about what you saw, or that you're part of some crazy conservative conspiracy against liberals, or really anything other than people sitting down as individuals in good faith, and discussing their differences of opinion.
 
*sigh* Apparently, the actual answer to, "Okay, this argument is getting heated and non-constructive. Can we shake hands and walk away at least for now?" is, "No, fuck you!"

If I was "gaslighting", I'd be claiming that you're wrong about your own observations. I am explicitly NOT doing that. I am saying that my take on the situation, based on firsthand observation in person, and not based on trusting the mainstream media's presentation of matters, is this.

Since that conflicts with your interpretation of what you've seen, I am willing to discuss that discrepancy, without assuming that you're lying about what you saw, or that you're part of some crazy conservative conspiracy against liberals, or really anything other than people sitting down as individuals in good faith, and discussing their differences of opinion.

If you'd like to set aside other people's arguments with you for a moment then, what would your response to the links I posted a couple pages back be?
 

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