Validity of Left-Right Divide Concerns

[ShadowArxxy]

Well, try not putting words in my mouth. I never asserted that Portland is the only place, nor that the video footage you talked about doesn't exist.

I'm talking about firsthand experience because I'm trying to acknowledge nuance based on direct, personal observation, as opposed to arguing from ideology that certain groups are "good" or "bad" or whatever. I'm doing this because I'm trying to ground at least a *piece* of this very, very heated discussion into, "I, the person you are actually talking to, am right here, right now. I'm not arguing with you based on *wanting to believe* certain groups are behaving well or badly or whatever; this is me telling you in good faith what I have been witnessing, and being proactively forthright about *not* generalizing it beyond exactly what it is."

If you want to only discuss this on a level of broad generalities, then to be quite honest, I'm not there for that discussion because it's going nowhere good. I condemn violent and criminal behavior, only you've already asserted that this doesn't count or matter, because I'm only one person versus the vaguely defined masses of "the left".

 

[Rocinante]

Well, try not putting words in my mouth. I never asserted that Portland is the only place, nor that the video footage you talked about doesn't exist.

I'm talking about firsthand experience because I'm trying to acknowledge nuance based on direct, personal observation, as opposed to arguing from ideology that certain groups are "good" or "bad" or whatever. I'm doing this because I'm trying to ground at least a *piece* of this very, very heated discussion into, "I, the person you are actually talking to, am right here, right now. I'm not arguing with you based on *wanting to believe* certain groups are behaving well or badly or whatever; this is me telling you in good faith what I have been witnessing, and being proactively forthright about *not* generalizing it beyond exactly what it is."

If you want to only discuss this on a level of broad generalities, then to be quite honest, I'm not there for that discussion because it's going nowhere good. I condemn violent and criminal behavior, only you've already asserted that this doesn't count or matter, because I'm only one person versus the vaguely defined masses of "the left".

You're sitting here telling us not to believe our own eyes because your experience in Portland is different than what we are claiming happened across the country.

You're putting words in our mouths and claiming we are saying this only happened in Portland or that our only focus on Portland. That's a lie.

We are telling you that we are talking about more than just Portland, and we watched the shit happen daily. Across the country. Live. With our own eyes.

Then you pull this "out of context" bullshit. I was watching live streams. I've got the god damn context.

Now stop insinuating that we are lying or fooled by propaganda. Stop trying to gaslight us. We watched it happen, live. Stop being a disingenuous liar.

 

[Xilizhra]

Floyd arguments to the Floyd thread, please?

 

[GoldRanger]

Video evidence doesn't always give the full and proper context, nor does it show the entire scope of an event. Neither does mine or anyone else's firsthand observations, true, but that criticism applies to all comers.

All right. What is an acceptable potential context for looting out a store (whether a private business or a chain), for a big man to beat down an elderly woman that is begging him not to loot the store on video, or for a group of people to beat down a person (looks like a teenager) so badly that he's lying bloodied and unconscious on the pavement with at least one clearly broken limb, or for "protesters" to break the windows of passing cars that had zero interaction with them? I've seen the videos of these incidents and more with my own eyes. None of the victims on the videos were shown to have a weapons, or to be a threat to the protesters.

Furthermore, "minority of protesters" or no, how is it OK to let them completely off the hook for this, and not condemn any of these incidents?

I can trust that I'm not lying about what I'm seeing firsthand. And given that I'm a security officer who actually has to deal with the protests professionally, I have a pretty good idea what's going on, and I have in fact personally observed a solid majority of the protests -- five nights a week for every week since they started.

Yet you seem to have missed many of the most egregious incidents recorded on video. You're just one man that can only be in one place at one time, with eyes in one direction, even if you are present in some of this events often/regularly, whereas we can view select videos of incidents because many people are filming in almost every event.

 

[ShadowArxxy]

All right. What is an acceptable potential context for looting out a store (whether a private business or a chain), for a big man to beat down an elderly woman that is begging him not to loot the store on video, or for a group of people to beat down a person (looks like a teenager) so badly that he's lying bloodied and unconscious on the pavement with at least one clearly broken limb, or for "protesters" to break the windows of passing cars that had zero interaction with them? I've seen the videos of these incidents and more with my own eyes. None of the victims on the videos were shown to have a weapons, or to be a threat to the protesters.

Since you're talking about specific incidents, I'm going to ask you to show me the video footage you're actually talking about.

That said, I'm not talking about context that makes these violent, criminal actions justified, because there is no such context, and I'm not asserting that there is. The context I'm talking about goes to the assertion that such incidents are typical of the behavior of protesters/rioters, and thus become something that the protest as a whole is collectively responsible for, as opposed to the individuals perpetrating them.

While I will admit that it's by necessity a vague standard, this is the same general thematic that I applied in judging conservative protests here -- that I wasn't going to condemn them based on isolated, individual actions, but on the overall behavior of the protest at large. I think that's a reasonable standard as long as one applies it consistently and not, "I'm going to cut my side slack this way, but not the other side."

Furthermore, "minority of protesters" or no, how is it OK to let them completely off the hook for this, and not condemn any of these incidents?

I literally just said I *am* condemning violent, criminal actions.

Yet you seem to have missed many of the most egregious incidents recorded on video. You're just one man that can only be in one place at one time, with eyes in one direction, even if you are present in some of this events often/regularly, whereas we can view select videos of incidents because many people are filming in almost every event.

1. As you yourself were just arguing, many of those incidents were not in Portland.

2. I am perfectly willing to acknowledge that I'm not omniscient, but I do ask that you concede that I am in fact seeing what I see.

3. I'm a girl, thanks.

4. My objection to video footage is exactly the same as your own objection to media coverage: it's by definition selective cuts. While yes, I can't see everything, I would argue that firsthand witness gives me a better gauge of the general attitude and "feel" of the crowd. Which, I will again say, for the night crowd is angry and aggressive, it's just not as violent as your take on it is.

 

[Rocinante]

Since you're talking about specific incidents, I'm going to ask you to show me the video footage you're actually talking about.

That said, I'm not talking about context that makes these violent, criminal actions justified, because there is no such context, and I'm not asserting that there is. The context I'm talking about goes to the assertion that such incidents are typical of the behavior of protesters/rioters, and thus become something that the protest as a whole is collectively responsible for, as opposed to the individuals perpetrating them.



I literally just said I *am* condemning violent, criminal actions.



1. As you yourself were just arguing, many of those incidents were not in Portland.

2. I am perfectly willing to acknowledge that I'm not omniscient, but I do ask that you concede that I am in fact seeing what I see.

3. I'm a girl, thanks.

4. My objection to video footage is exactly the same as your own objection to media coverage: it's by definition selective cuts. While yes, I can't see everything, I would argue that firsthand witness gives me a better gauge of the general attitude and "feel" of the crowd. Which, I will again say, for the night crowd is angry and aggressive, it's just not as violent as your take on it is.

You're doing it again.

You're using your first hand footage in Portland to pretend you're right. And we are telling you over and over again that we are talking about the entire country not just Portland.

You can go look up the videos yourself, but it's kinda hard to post live streams from two months ago, because you know, it's not live anymore. There is NO SHORTAGE of videos. You just have to do a quick search for it. If it was some small incident that was hard to find, I could see you asking for sources. You can just go search for it and find tons of footage.

You're asking us to accept that you're correct, based on your one person perspective of one city, and we are talking about multiple cities across the country. This shit happened. We watched it.

Stop trying to fucking gaslight us.

 

[ShadowArxxy]

I'm asking for the videos because I want to see the same evidence you're talking about without misunderstanding, not because I'm claiming you made it up. If I search for videos, I'm not necessarily going to see the same ones you two have been talking about.

No, I am not asking you to accept that I'm correct about the protests at large. I'm asking you to accept that I am accurately describing what I've seen, as I in return am accepting that you saw the video footage you're talking about, because without at least accepting that the people we are talking to are not fabricating everything they say, we can't actually discuss any of this in good faith.

I have seen what I have seen. That is a factual statement, not "gaslighting".

 

[ShadowArxxy]

You know what? I don't think this is going anywhere constructive, and it's something of a divergence from the original point of the thread -- although it can also be taken as an example of the original point of the thread.

I am going to offer to, figuratively, shake your hands in good faith and let it be.

 

[Rocinante]

You know what? I don't think this is going anywhere constructive, and it's something of a divergence from the original point of the thread -- although it can also be taken as an example of the original point of the thread.

I am going to offer to, figuratively, shake your hands in good faith and let it be.

I think you've done a good job illustrating EXACTLY the problem we have coexisting and conversing with the left in this thread, so in that regard, it fits here.

You keep bringing up your personal experience in Portland to try to prove your point. And we keep telling you that we are talking about more than Portland. That we watched it every day. Yet you keep saying "well my experience in Portland-" We. Are. Not. Talking. About. Just. Portland. For the billionth time.

That said, I accept your hand shake and desire to walk away and I will stop pressing you over the issue. I had to point out though, that up until your offer to hand shake, you've been a perfect example of the exact problem this thread is highlighting.

 

[GoldRanger]

Since you're talking about specific incidents, I'm going to ask you to show me the video footage you're actually talking about.

I'll see if I can find some, but I don't promise anything. Facebook and Youtube really love deleting these things, and most I've seen have been circulated in unmoderated apps like Telegram. Which supports our (according to you baseless and ideological) assertion that most companies, or "the left", or "the establishment" or "the mainstream media", or "the democrats" or whatever you want to call these largely overlapping groups are trying to mislead and deceive the public, by covering these events in an extremely selective manner.

That said, I'm not talking about context that makes these violent, criminal actions justified, because there is no such context, and I'm not asserting that there is. The context I'm talking about goes to the assertion that such incidents are typical of the behavior of protesters/rioters, and thus become something that the protest as a whole is collectively responsible for, as opposed to the individuals perpetrating them.

I'm going to be blunt, I don't give half a damn whether this behavior is typical or not. The movement did not condemn its own when they've been misbehaving, ergo the movement is colluding with them until proven otherwise. Exactly the same goes for law enforcement organs. And I'm not even talking about their suspicious as all fuck organizational skills.

One possible explanation that fits most known facts, just for the sake of an example (not asserting that that's the actual reality) would be an organization that has two arms, on one hand a moderate crowd of mostly hangers-on which can be used for PR-related purposes, and on the other hand a hardened core of ideologues, organized in terrorist-like cells and sent to inflict terror on the population for political intimidation purposes (brown shirts, essentially, or a political private army/militia).

IF that was the case - and I'll empathically repeat that I don't know that it really is the case, just an honest hypothetical, although one that's ringing suspiciously true and fitting many facts. In all likelihood in the real world it's not as bad as I depict, but maybe getting there - you'd probably agree with me that the fact most of the protests have been peaceful does absolutely nothing to get the organization that's responsible for them off the hook.

While I will admit that it's by necessity a vague standard, this is the same general thematic that I applied in judging conservative protests here -- that I wasn't going to condemn them based on isolated, individual actions, but on the overall behavior of the protest at large.

I agree. And the overall behavior of the protest at large is to cover for its violent elements, with full collaboration from the media and law enforcement. I have yet to hear a satisfactory argument for why I should ignore this fact.

I literally just said I *am* condemning violent, criminal actions.

You are just one person, one who represents nobody.

2. I am perfectly willing to acknowledge that I'm not omniscient, but I do ask that you concede that I am in fact seeing what I see.

Never claimed otherwise. In fact, nobody here even made the claim that 100% of the protests are always violent, everywhere and all the time. If that were the case, there would be much more than a few dozen dead in these past few months. But let's put this strawman aside.

3. I'm a girl, thanks.

My apologies, I default to male since females (or trans, for that matter) are underrepresented on the Sietch. I wish there were more of both here, frankly.

4. My objection to video footage is exactly the same as your own objection to media coverage: it's by definition selective cuts. While yes, I can't see everything, I would argue that firsthand witness gives me a better gauge of the general attitude and "feel" of the crowd. Which, I will again say, for the night crowd is angry and aggressive, it's just not as violent as your take on it is.

That's exactly why I've asked you for a hypothetical context that would make these videos less damning, since I'm struggling to come up with one, they're pretty clear-cut to me. But it's unfair to ask this of you, since you didn't see the actual videos, so I'm willing to drop this argument.

Maybe someone can come up with a few of the videos here. I admit that I'm even a bit afraid to search for them, honestly.

EDIT: I think Roci is talking about the more milquetoast videos that simply depict looting stores or breaking car's windows. The more rarer ones are the truly violent ones, that include blood and very savage and brutal beatings of helpless victims. I've heard that there are some videos of literal rape on the streets circulating (mostly related to good old CHAZ) but luckily I never saw those personally, and don't want to.

 

[Rocinante]

I'll see if I can find some, but I don't promise anything. Facebook and Youtube really love deleting these things, and most I've seen have been circulated in unmoderated apps like Telegram. Which supports our (according to you baseless and ideological) assertion that most companies, or "the left", or "the establishment" or "the mainstream media", or "the democrats" or whatever you want to call these largely overlapping groups are trying to mislead and deceive the public, by covering these events in an extremely selective manner.



I'm going to be blunt, I don't give half a damn whether this behavior is typical or not. The movement did not condemn its own when they've been misbehaving, ergo the movement is colluding with them until proven otherwise. Exactly the same goes for law enforcement organs. And I'm not even talking about their suspicious as all fuck organization.

One possible explanation that fits most known facts, just for the sake of an example (not asserting that that's the actual reality) would be an organization that has two arms, on one hand a moderate crowd of mostly hangers-on which can be used for PR-related purposes, and on the other hand a hardened core of ideologues, organized in terrorist-like cells and sent to inflict terror on the population for political intimidation purposes (brown shirts, essentially, or a political private army/militia).

IF that was the case - and I'll empathically repeat that I don't know that it really is the case, just an honest hypothetical, although one that's ringing suspiciously true and fitting many facts. In all likelihood in the real world it's not as bad as I depict, but maybe getting there - you'd probably agree with me that the fact most of the protests have been peaceful does absolutely nothing to get the organization that's responsible for them off the hook.



I agree. And the overall behavior of the protest at large is to cover for its violent elements, with full collaboration from the media and law enforcement. I have yet to hear a satisfactory argument for why I should ignore this fact.



You are just one person, one who represents nobody.



Never claimed otherwise. In fact, nobody here even made the claim that 100% of the protests are always violent, everywhere and all the time. If that were the case, there would be much more than a few dozen dead in these past few months. But let's put this strawman aside.



My apologies, I default to male since females (or trans, for that matter) are underrepresented on the Sietch. I wish there were more of both here, frankly.



That's exactly why I've asked you for a hypothetical context that would make these videos less damning, since I'm struggling to come up with one, they're pretty clear-cut to me. But it's unfair to ask this of you, since you didn't see the actual videos, so I'm willing to drop this argument.

Maybe someone can come up with a few of the videos here. I admit that I'm even a bit afraid to search for them, honestly.

EDIT: I think Roci is talking about the more milquetoast videos that simply depict looting stores or breaking car's windows. The more rarer ones are the truly violent ones, that include blood and very savage and brutal beatings of helpless victims. I've heard that there are some videos of literal rape on the streets circulating (mostly related to good old CHAZ) but luckily I never saw those personally, and don't want to.

Oh. Yeah, I'm not even going to go looking for some of the more brutal ones I have seen.

I was indeed just referring to the looting, burning, etc.

And as I've said, I watched some of this stuff live. 95% of what I saw live were indeed peaceful protests. That does not excuse the FACT that lots of violence did happen, and the fact that the media and the politicians refused to acknowledge or condemn that violence. It's "just an idea."

Also: This post is being directed to a wider audience now, I have chosen to stop responding directly to shawdowarxxy as she has offered a handshake and wishes to step out of the discussion. I will no longer directly respond to her unless she jumps back in.

 

[GoldRanger]

The issue is that the protesters and the organizations behind them are not calling out, condemning en masse, and prosecuting these violent elements. The fact that they're a minority ends up mattering very little, when it's very obvious that the organizations in question are satisfied with their behavior. Remember in the beginning, when the media tried to claim it's "white supremacist provocateurs" causing these riots, and then switching to "they actually have a right to be violent"? It's not like the majority of the left is hiding its support and satisfaction with this violence committed by the minority very well. So why should we let them off the hook?

In that sense, the argument that the violence is only committed by a minority is a red herring.

Also, I think it's unfortunate that she decided to withdraw. We did pressure her and dogpiled her a bit too much, but I feel like we had a genuine chance of getting through, unlike with many of the left-wing persuasion.

 

[Xilizhra]

For the record, I will unequivocally condemn any violence carried out towards innocent people.

 

[GoldRanger]

For the record, I will unequivocally condemn any violence carried out towards innocent people.

Your and ShadowArxxy's condemnations are greatly encouraging. But where's the media? Where are BLM's leaders? Where are the politicians on the Democrat's side? Where's the law enforcement? Maybe I'm wrong, but the general gist is that you both are in the minority when it comes to your side of the political divide, either that or you're a silent majority. We need a strong, bold condemnation by public figures, and a highly visible move to curb said violence.

 

[Xilizhra]

Your and ShadowArxxy's condemnations are greatly encouraging. But where's the media? Where are BLM's leaders? Where are the politicians on the Democrat's side? Where's the law enforcement? Maybe I'm wrong, but the general gist is that you both are in the minority when it comes to your side of the political divide, either that or you're a silent majority. We need a strong, bold condemnation by public figures, and a highly visible move to curb said violence.

While I've been deliberately staying out of political news for a while, one thing I am certain of is that Biden's been unequivocal in being opposed to any sort of violence.

 

[GoldRanger]

While I've been deliberately staying out of political news for a while, one thing I am certain of is that Biden's been unequivocal in being opposed to any sort of violence.

I dimly recall him saying so, but his message is not anywhere close to getting through. Especially given the actions his campaign took in bailing out rioters.

 

[Rocinante]

While I've been deliberately staying out of political news for a while, one thing I am certain of is that Biden's been unequivocal in being opposed to any sort of violence.

Biden is mixed, because at the same time he calls antifa "just an idea," and won't condemn them by name.

This is so he can pretend a large part of the violence is from the right wing, and not offend his leftist base. While there has been some violence from the right, it's a false equivalency.

 

[LifeisTiresome]

@Rocinante

What matters to the lefty is the lived in experience. Facts and videos are lies. Their lived in experience and feelings are superior above all else. But only their lived in experience and feelings. Everyone else not on their side, lived in experience and feelings don't matter. These are the same people who say that the fight for the common man .

Too subjective to be worth arguing over.

Aka Trump is hitler. Thats what you really mean.

 

[GoldRanger]

@Rocinante

What matters to the lefty is the lived in experience. Facts and videos are lies. Their lived in experience and feelings are superior above all else. But only their lived in experience and feelings. Everyone else not on their side, lived in experience and feelings don't matter. These are the same people who say that the fight for the common man .

Aka Trump is hitler. Thats what you really mean.

You're being too harsh on them. As long as they have not personally displayed that they aren't acting in good faith, even if their political comrades often do. Let's give them a chance to engage with us before we run them out of the site with pitchforks and torches, the way the left did to many of us.

 

[LifeisTiresome]

You're being too harsh on them. As long as they have not personally displayed that they aren't acting in good faith, even if their political comrades often do. Let's give them a chance to engage with us before we run them out of the site with pitchforks and torches, the way the left did to many of us.

Sure. I'm not telling them to leave the site or demanding that they be banned. I'm just telling them whats on my mind about what they say.

But I get your point. I will be less vitriolic.