Trump Investigations Thread

Carrot of Truth

War is Peace
Left wingers not having as many kids is a global thing that aspect of it will effect him when he gets on in years

I fully expect most western countries to be under Italian style fascist regimes in a century. A regime like that will probably use the current weaponization of the US legal system as a precedent to crush any left wing opposition in the US hilariously.
 

Largo

Well-known member
I honestly think there is a good chance the supreme court will step in at some point because none of them want the kind of can of worms that will be opened by fully weaponizing the legal system by politicians.

And allowing that to stand. And for the leftists who are about to scream and I'm looking at you mega death conservatives have a fertility advantage of 40 percent. That power will end up in the hands of your enemies you want to lose this one because it will protect you when your old and grey.
By this ridiculous logic, liberalism should have never gotten off the ground in the first place. Or what, do you think liberalism prevailed because it outbred other ideologies?
 

Cherico

Well-known member
By this ridiculous logic, liberalism should have never gotten off the ground in the first place. Or what, do you think liberalism prevailed because it outbred other ideologies?
In many ways yes liberalism did out breed other ideologies. Angol sphere country's used to have high birth rates the pilgrims would have ten children who all lived to adulthood who would go into have ten children of their own.
 

Carrot of Truth

War is Peace
In many ways yes liberalism did out breed other ideologies. Angol sphere country's used to have high birth rates the pilgrims would have ten children who all lived to adulthood who would go into have ten children of their own.

The United States is the biggest factor in the spread of liberal republics currently being dominant. I imagine future historians will view this period as a weird outlier from the norm.
 

Cherico

Well-known member
The United States is the biggest factor in the spread of liberal republics currently being dominant. I imagine future historians will view this period as a weird outlier from the norm.

The future is not written and we don't know what it will bring.

Honestly when space travel really gets going I think we might end up with city states making a comback as communities split and split depending on different values and with space being so large you don't have to compromise like you have to do today instead you can just leave and form your own community.
 

Carrot of Truth

War is Peace
The future is not written and we don't know what it will bring.

Honestly when space travel really gets going I think we might end up with city states making a comback as communities split and split depending on different values and with space being so large you don't have to compromise like you have to do today instead you can just leave and form your own community.

Well there is also genetic engineering potentially leading to a legitimate master race that is utterly superior to regular humans.
 

Largo

Well-known member
In many ways yes liberalism did out breed other ideologies. Angol sphere country's used to have high birth rates the pilgrims would have ten children who all lived to adulthood who would go into have ten children of their own.
I don't know where to begin. Should it be the fact that you're using a 400-year example that came before liberalism even existed to represent the entire Anglosphere? Should it be the fact that you're completely ignoring, I dunno, China and India? Should it be the fact that you're acting like nothing has changed in these past 400 years?

I'm also going to point out that this argument that conservatives are going to win because they will outbreed the liberals is not new. At all. I've been hearing it since I became aware of politics in the 2000s, and hell people were probably saying it before that. And I don't see any conservative youth cavalry riding in to save the day.
 

Rocinante

Russian Bot
Founder
I don't know where to begin. Should it be the fact that you're using a 400-year example that came before liberalism even existed to represent the entire Anglosphere? Should it be the fact that you're completely ignoring, I dunno, China and India? Should it be the fact that you're acting like nothing has changed in these past 400 years?

I'm also going to point out that this argument that conservatives are going to win because they will outbreed the liberals is not new. At all. I've been hearing it since I became aware of politics in the 2000s, and hell people were probably saying it before that. And I don't see any conservative youth cavalry riding in to save the day.
Cherico repeats this claim all the time, and if it was even remotely accurate, we would be living in a conservative country where liberals have NO CHANCE at ever winning anything ever again.

It doesn't matter if the parents are conservative. That doesn't mean the children will be. They've got plenty of other influences in their lives, and this completely ignore how many kids will be liberals just to be different than their parents.

In short, it's utter nonsense.
 

DarthOne

☦️
Left wingers not having as many kids is a global thing that aspect of it will effect him when he gets on in years
As others have pointed out before on this site, the Right having more kids won't matter if the left controls the education system and entertainment industry. They can afford to create more of themselves via conversion.

Edit: DAMN NINJAS!
 

Blasterbot

Well-known member
I don't know where to begin. Should it be the fact that you're using a 400-year example that came before liberalism even existed to represent the entire Anglosphere? Should it be the fact that you're completely ignoring, I dunno, China and India? Should it be the fact that you're acting like nothing has changed in these past 400 years?

I'm also going to point out that this argument that conservatives are going to win because they will outbreed the liberals is not new. At all. I've been hearing it since I became aware of politics in the 2000s, and hell people were probably saying it before that. And I don't see any conservative youth cavalry riding in to save the day.
and if you look at that it actually does track to a degree. in the 2000s liberals aborted enough of their progeny to fall below replacement value. the generation where that was affected by that? the zoomers. what generation is the first generation to not be more liberal than the previous? the zoomers. now we are seeing it start to swing not merely from the percentage of liberals is stagnant over the generations to actively falling.

While you may not be paying much attention to them there are younger people out there trying to spread a conservative message.
As others have pointed out before on this site, the Right having more kids won't matter if the left controls the education system and entertainment industry. They can afford to create more of themselves via conversion.
Parasitism only goes so far and requires that the parents aren't involved in the raising of their kids. being involved in your kids life and schooling is something that is important. it was always important and outsourcing it to public schools and T.V. was a mistake.
 
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The Whispering Monk

Well-known member
Osaul
And I don't see any conservative youth cavalry riding in to save the day.
More and more youth are moving towards and into Conservatism b/c of the shit-show they see happening. It's not reported on b/c it's one of those things that the LEFT is trying to ignore into extinction.
As others have pointed out before on this site, the Right having more kids won't matter if the left controls the education system and entertainment industry. They can afford to create more of themselves via conversion.
The education system is also something that is starting to swing away from LEFTist indoctrination. Massive increase in Home-schooling along with a big increase in parental involvement in the Public Ed system.
This is something that the LEFT has been building up for more than a century. It's gonna take a while for us to grab it back.
 

LordsFire

Internet Wizard
The left will always tear some people away. They offer easy gratification, lesser or no responsibility, and blaming other people for all your problems. That's always tempting.

The question is how many will they tear away, and how many will come to their senses after a time?
 

Carrot of Truth

War is Peace
The actual left isn't really popular with anyone outside their core of freaks and basement dwellers. Most people who actually vote for Democrats are dumbass boomer types who still think its the 90's. As for the lefts control of the education and entertainment industry well we are already witnessing both of those things fall apart. The left is good at taking over things but they always run it into the ground relatively fast.
 
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Megadeath

Well-known member
In terms of legal culpability for January 6th and the “fraud” scheme…no, I don’t think it would ultimately stand. A DC jury might well convict him, but I think any conviction would get tossed on appeal because for someone to defraud the government, it has to involve something of tangible value under the commonly understood definition (e.g., money, property, etc). Not to mention that Trump could well argue that he genuinely believed what he was saying, and that may well be the truth! And if so, well, there goes the case, because you can’t convict him for fraud if he genuinely believed what he was saying.
Actually, the tangible value thing is a commonly held misunderstanding. That applies to wire fraud, or similar fraud. Under 18 U.S.C. § 371 defraud has a more expansive meaning, that can include material loss but can also "include any conspiracy for the purpose of impairing, obstructing or defeating the lawful function of any department of government..." See Hass v. Henkel, 216 U.S. 462 (1910), and Hammerschmidt v. United States, 265 U.S. 182 (1924) for the relevant jurisprudence.

As for arguing genuine belief, that's probably a tack they will take but they'll have a hell of a time with it. Have you read the indictment? There are some pretty damning quotes from trump himself and even worse from the co-conspirators that would certainly seem to strongly refute that belief. When the mountains of evidence presented to trump from every relevant government agency, plus the results of the 50+ cases bought to court are considered, it's going to be even harder to claim. But that is obviously an aspect for the jury to ultimately decide.
 

Airedale260

Well-known member
Actually, the tangible value thing is a commonly held misunderstanding. That applies to wire fraud, or similar fraud. Under 18 U.S.C. § 371 defraud has a more expansive meaning, that can include material loss but can also "include any conspiracy for the purpose of impairing, obstructing or defeating the lawful function of any department of government..." See Hass v. Henkel, 216 U.S. 462 (1910), and Hammerschmidt v. United States, 265 U.S. 182 (1924) for the relevant jurisprudence.

As for arguing genuine belief, that's probably a tack they will take but they'll have a hell of a time with it. Have you read the indictment? There are some pretty damning quotes from trump himself and even worse from the co-conspirators that would certainly seem to strongly refute that belief. When the mountains of evidence presented to trump from every relevant government agency, plus the results of the 50+ cases bought to court are considered, it's going to be even harder to claim. But that is obviously an aspect for the jury to ultimately decide.
The wire fraud statute is one I’m very familiar with, actually, from my professional life. But the approach to this has been litigated many times, and in McNally v. United States (1987) the Supreme Court ruled that, to be actionable under the law, “fraud” is defined a deceptive scheme designed to obtain money or tangible property (McNally involved Kentucky state employees who were getting kickbacks over an insurance contract). The Court ruled 7-2 that, because Congress hadn’t criminalized the “honest services” concept at the time, the conviction couldn’t stand (the logic being that if Congress intended for it to apply, it would have said so). The interpretation you apply does have some root in Haas and Hammerschmidt…but the Court explicit *rejected* those interpretations in McNally, ruling that the definition of “fraud” doesn’t change simply because the United States is a party to a case.

Now, Congress did address this loophole in 1988, but when they did so, the language of the statute regarding “honest services” was quite vague. But it did NOT include language addressing the definition of ‘fraud’ to include “interference with government functions” (which it could have since this exact issue was brought up in the dissent in McNally).

So, fast forward to 2010 and the case of Skilling v. United States (involving, of all people, Jeffrey Skilling of Enron fame). The Court ruled that because the statutory language of “honest services fraud” was so vague that it violated the Constitution (in this case, that the criminal conduct must be clearly spelled out; and that ordinary people are able to understand what conduct is prohibited).

Now, in situations like this, there are generally two remedies: Either the statute gets tossed in its entirety and Congress has to make up a new one, or else the Court narrows the definition based on other parts of the law as well as case law and commonly understood definitions of words. In this instance, the court did the latter, and ruled that to fit the definition of “honest services”, the conduct involved is limited to kickbacks and bribery. Neither of which is alleged to have occurred here.

Now, if Smith can persuade the jury otherwise, sure he can get a conviction…that will be quickly tossed out as unconstitutional, and rightly so.

I’m not saying this because I think Trump bears no moral or political responsibility for what happened, but from a legal standpoint, well, he doesn’t. The proper remedy would have been to build a case for impeachment within Congress, but again, the majority at the time just made up a one-line charge and didn’t bother to make the case to the public like it’s supposed to.

Anyway, like you said, we will see. But be aware that even if he’s convicted, that won’t be it, and the case will almost certainly get tossed on appeal.
 

Megadeath

Well-known member
The wire fraud statute is one I’m very familiar with, actually, from my professional life. But the approach to this has been litigated many times, and in McNally v. United States (1987) the Supreme Court ruled that, to be actionable under the law, “fraud” is defined a deceptive scheme designed to obtain money or tangible property (McNally involved Kentucky state employees who were getting kickbacks over an insurance contract). The Court ruled 7-2 that, because Congress hadn’t criminalized the “honest services” concept at the time, the conviction couldn’t stand (the logic being that if Congress intended for it to apply, it would have said so). The interpretation you apply does have some root in Haas and Hammerschmidt…but the Court explicit *rejected* those interpretations in McNally, ruling that the definition of “fraud” doesn’t change simply because the United States is a party to a case.

Now, Congress did address this loophole in 1988, but when they did so, the language of the statute regarding “honest services” was quite vague. But it did NOT include language addressing the definition of ‘fraud’ to include “interference with government functions” (which it could have since this exact issue was brought up in the dissent in McNally).

So, fast forward to 2010 and the case of Skilling v. United States (involving, of all people, Jeffrey Skilling of Enron fame). The Court ruled that because the statutory language of “honest services fraud” was so vague that it violated the Constitution (in this case, that the criminal conduct must be clearly spelled out; and that ordinary people are able to understand what conduct is prohibited).

Now, in situations like this, there are generally two remedies: Either the statute gets tossed in its entirety and Congress has to make up a new one, or else the Court narrows the definition based on other parts of the law as well as case law and commonly understood definitions of words. In this instance, the court did the latter, and ruled that to fit the definition of “honest services”, the conduct involved is limited to kickbacks and bribery. Neither of which is alleged to have occurred here.

Now, if Smith can persuade the jury otherwise, sure he can get a conviction…that will be quickly tossed out as unconstitutional, and rightly so.

I’m not saying this because I think Trump bears no moral or political responsibility for what happened, but from a legal standpoint, well, he doesn’t. The proper remedy would have been to build a case for impeachment within Congress, but again, the majority at the time just made up a one-line charge and didn’t bother to make the case to the public like it’s supposed to.

Anyway, like you said, we will see. But be aware that even if he’s convicted, that won’t be it, and the case will almost certainly get tossed on appeal.
You seem to be missing or ignoring that he's not being charged with wire fraud or mail fraud or similar, where you would be right about the tangible value aspect. That would be under 18 U.S.C. § 1343, or § 1341. (Or, as you alluded to §1346) The way things apply to § 371 is different. As I showed before, in two cases before the Supreme Court it was specifically determined not to be a required in such a case.

Now I've no doubt as well that you're right and trump will attempt to appeal any and all verdicts against him, but he hasn't shown himself to be a genius of legal strategy thus far. Rather he's relied on outspending and intimidating people through the courts, which simply doesn't work when you're up against the government.
 

The Immortal Watch Dog

Well-known member
Hetman
As others have pointed out before on this site, the Right having more kids won't matter if the left controls the education system and entertainment industry. They can afford to create more of themselves via conversion.

Edit: DAMN NINJAS!

Which is why you remove your kids from the educational system now and continue to have more of them and homeschool them while focusing on tearing the leftists out of that system via legal and cultural battles.
 

Airedale260

Well-known member
You seem to be missing or ignoring that he's not being charged with wire fraud or mail fraud or similar, where you would be right about the tangible value aspect. That would be under 18 U.S.C. § 1343, or § 1341. (Or, as you alluded to §1346) The way things apply to § 371 is different. As I showed before, in two cases before the Supreme Court it was specifically determined not to be a required in such a case.

Now I've no doubt as well that you're right and trump will attempt to appeal any and all verdicts against him, but he hasn't shown himself to be a genius of legal strategy thus far. Rather he's relied on outspending and intimidating people through the courts, which simply doesn't work when you're up against the government.
Respectfully, I understand exactly what you’re arguing. What you apparently missed was my pointing out that the definition of the word “fraud” in U.S. law *as a whole* is limited to money or tangible property/something of tangible worth.

So, some background on this, just so you’re clear:

In the decades after Haas and Hammerschmidt, prosecutors kept trying to stretch the definition of “fraud” to cover all sorts of deception. This meant that there was, theoretically, no limiting principle on what was vs what wasn’t fraud. In the world of criminal law, this is a problem because people could be charged arbitrarily for fraud despite there being no such intent.

So, enter the McNally case in 1987. The background was that the former chairman of the Kentucky Democratic Party conspired with a state official to have a contract for unemployment insurance awarded to a company secretly controlled by the chairman, with McNally as the front man. McNally argued (successfully) that the language of the statute itself did not say anything about “honest services” and when the Court reviewed the statute, agreed. The reasoning was that if Congress had intended for it to be covered, they needed to make it explicit and clearly defined (which is required of any criminal law).

Now, in the 2-person dissent, John Paul Stevens argued for the stance you take, namely that “fraud” should be interpreted far more broadly than just money or tangible property.The other seven justices disagreed, and so McNally stood while the more expansive interpretations from Haas and Hammerschmidt were rendered invalid.

So, we go to 1988 when Congress amends the statute in question to include “honest services.” However, once again, they failed to actually spell out what that meant and who it covered (public officials or private officers of companies) and what specific kind of conduct it prohibited (again, a no-no in constitutional law). More importantly, though, Congress did NOT explicitly make the kind of conduct Trump allegedly engaged in a crime under the fraud statute, and under the long-standing principle of “if it isn’t explicitly banned, it’s legal” in law, any interpretation by the courts would have to invalidate this interpretation…which is exactly what happened.

Now we come to 2010, and in Skilling, the Supreme Court ruled explicitly that “honest services fraud” only applies to schemes involving kickbacks or bribery.

The bottom line is that it doesn’t matter what Haas or Hammerschmidt say…they were rendered invalid by McNally and Skilling. Smith is trying to play games hoping the courts will rule differently this time around, but from a legal perspective it’s incredibly doubtful he will succeed here, and unless the composition of the Supreme Court changes before it gets to them (if it gets to them), any conviction would be struck down.

I say “if” because the D.C. Circuit would likely wind up on SCOTUS’ shit list if they tried to play games on this front. But seriously, when the best example a lawyer can cite is a case that’s 99 years old AND has been rendered invalid…they have a problem.
 

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