The War in Afghanistan

[WolfBear]

Oops meant to say food in there lol.

Yeah, giving Afghanistan food aid directly is actually a great idea.

Story time: In early 2001, the Taliban destroyed the giant Bamiyan Buddha statues because they were upset that the West was offering them money to trade for these statues and to transport these statues abroad while refusing to give any money for hungry Afghan children. However, the Taliban conveniently ignored the fact that Western money from the statues could have subsequently been used to help feed Afghan children.

 

[Husky_Khan]

Yeah, giving Afghanistan food aid directly is actually a great idea.

Story time: In early 2001, the Taliban destroyed the giant Bamiyan Buddha statues because they were upset that the West was offering them money to trade for these statues and to transport these statues abroad while refusing to give any money for hungry Afghan children. However, the Taliban conveniently ignored the fact that Western money from the statues could have subsequently been used to help feed Afghan children.

I'm still needlessly angered by such pointless iconoclasm like how the Taliban ineptly stumbled through actually destroying those 7th century statues that predate Islam way back when.

Think of all the Muslim armies and civilizations that passed through there and it never occurred to any of them to destroy those statues for whatever reason. But it did occur to the Taliban.

 

[WolfBear]

I'm still needlessly angered by such pointless iconoclasm like how the Taliban ineptly stumbled through actually destroying those 7th century statues that predate Islam way back when.

Think of all the Muslim armies and civilizations that passed through there and it never occurred to any of them to destroy those statues for whatever reason. But it did occur to the Taliban.

The interesting thing, though, is that the international community offered the Taliban a way to get rid of these statues without destroying them by moving them to another country, such as India. It even offered to pay the Taliban for this, money which the Taliban could have subsequently used to spend on feeding Afghan children. But the Taliban foolishly said "No!"

 

[Urabrask Revealed]

used to spend on feeding Afghan children

Or buy new guns/gas/ammo. That one sounds more likely.

 

[TheRejectionist]

Afghanistan was unsalvageable the moment it became a excessively progressive "republic". Or maybe the moment the US decided not restore the king.

 

[WolfBear]

Or buy new guns/gas/ammo. That one sounds more likely.

Depends on what the Taliban values more, kids or guns.

Afghanistan was unsalvageable the moment it became a excessively progressive "republic". Or maybe the moment the US decided not restore the king.

Yeah, a monarchical restoration was a better move for Afghanistan in 2001-2002, no doubt.

Anyway:

Biden calls for Taliban to release American hostage before legitimacy recognized

President Biden on Sunday called for the release of American hostage Mark Frerichs ahead of the two-year anniversary of his abduction if the Taliban expects to be recognized as the l…

thehill.com

 

[TheRejectionist]

Depends on what the Taliban values more, kids or guns.



Yeah, a monarchical restoration was a better move for Afghanistan in 2001-2002, no doubt.

Anyway:

Biden calls for Taliban to release American hostage before legitimacy recognized

President Biden on Sunday called for the release of American hostage Mark Frerichs ahead of the two-year anniversary of his abduction if the Taliban expects to be recognized as the l…

thehill.com

2 years hostage don't get the hopes of being STILL alive.

 

[WolfBear]

2 years hostage don't get the hopes of being STILL alive.

Bowe Bergdahl was a hostage for longer and still came out alive.

 

[WolfBear]

The Afghan version of the Vietnamese boat people:

Over a Million Flee as Afghanistan’s Economy Collapses (Published 2022)

Thousands of Afghans are trying to sneak into Iran and Pakistan each day, as incomes have dried up and life-threatening hunger has become widespread.

www.nytimes.com

 

[Terthna]

So, um; how many United States citizens are still stuck in Afghanistan?

 

[Marduk]

So, um; how many United States citizens are still stuck in Afghanistan?

How many want to be there, and how many are dual citizens?

The Afghan version of the Vietnamese boat people:

Over a Million Flee as Afghanistan’s Economy Collapses (Published 2022)

Thousands of Afghans are trying to sneak into Iran and Pakistan each day, as incomes have dried up and life-threatening hunger has become widespread.

www.nytimes.com

Not really, they aren't fleeing Taliban's ideology, the article makes it pretty obvious that they are, above all, fleeing poverty.
What the west should do, if it was competent, would be to remind everyone that apparently US influence is not wanted by the regional powers, especially the 2 regional powers (that kinda sabotaged US efforts there) and aspiring superpower (who is their ally) that border Afghanistan, and now that US forces have withdrawn, they have a perfect opportunity to show off their awesomely competent and effective stewardship of their region. We're waiting...

 

[nemo1986]

How many want to be there, and how many are dual citizens?

Not really, they aren't fleeing Taliban's ideology, the article makes it pretty obvious that they are, above all, fleeing poverty.
What the west should do, if it was competent, would be to remind everyone that apparently US influence is not wanted by the regional powers, especially the 2 regional powers (that kinda sabotaged US efforts there) and aspiring superpower (who is their ally) that border Afghanistan, and now that US forces have withdrawn, they have a perfect opportunity to show off their awesomely competent and effective stewardship of their region. We're waiting...

They will just put the blame on the US for stirring the pot.

 

[Terthna]

How many want to be there, and how many are dual citizens?

If I knew that, I wouldn't be asking. I just want to know if anybody was still stuck there that we should have gotten out in the evacuation; because I haven't heard anything about that in months, and the last thing I heard was that there were still American citizens stranded in Afghanistan.

 

[Marduk]

If I knew that, I wouldn't be asking. I just want to know if anybody was still stuck there that we should have gotten out in the evacuation; because I haven't heard anything about that in months, and the last thing I heard was that there were still American citizens stranded in Afghanistan.

But if they aren't going out of their way to get out or contact the government, how would anyone know? They don't have sat locator implants after all.

Fate of California students in Afghanistan uncertain as U.S. airlift ends

Six Afghan refugee families who had resettled in California only to end up stranded in their homeland during a summer visit that coincided with the U.S. troop withdrawal have made it safely out, San Diego-area school officials said on Monday.

www.reuters.com

One notable case i remember is this, and there are news of them, though they aren't exactly American citizens, just migrant/visa holders Afghans who are absolute morons and thought its a bright idea to not only go to vacation in Afghanistan at all, but do it when the government was folding.

American University of Afghanistan's students are scattered all over the world, but their education continues

Established in 2006, the school's physical campus closed when Kabul fell to the Taliban.

www.cbsnews.com

 

[Terthna]

But if they aren't going out of their way to get out or contact the government, how would anyone know? They don't have sat locator implants after all.

I imagine we could at least find out if any of them never came home; because by this point they're probably not trying to get out or contact our government because they're dead.

 

[WolfBear]

Not really, they aren't fleeing Taliban's ideology, the article makes it pretty obvious that they are, above all, fleeing poverty.
What the west should do, if it was competent, would be to remind everyone that apparently US influence is not wanted by the regional powers, especially the 2 regional powers (that kinda sabotaged US efforts there) and aspiring superpower (who is their ally) that border Afghanistan, and now that US forces have withdrawn, they have a perfect opportunity to show off their awesomely competent and effective stewardship of their region. We're waiting...

TBF, a lot of the Vietnamese boat people were likewise fleeing poverty.

 

[Marduk]

TBF, a lot of the Vietnamese boat people were likewise fleeing poverty.

And in case of the Vietnamese it was pretty clear that western countries who were taking them, were doing that voluntarily rather than by legal obligation, to make a propaganda point in context of the Cold War, especially with some groups being genuinely oppressed by an outright commie government.

With the Afghans, there is no such point to make, and the arguments being made to take them tend to be based on legal obligation through generous interpretation of international law regarding refugees and human rights.

 

[WolfBear]

And in case of the Vietnamese it was pretty clear that western countries who were taking them, were doing that voluntarily rather than by legal obligation, to make a propaganda point in context of the Cold War, especially with some groups being genuinely oppressed by an outright commie government.

With the Afghans, there is no such point to make, and the arguments being made to take them tend to be based on legal obligation through generous interpretation of international law regarding refugees and human rights.

Actually, I think that the moral argument for taking in Afghans is that people should be capable of living under a free or at least decent government rather than under Taliban tyranny. But of course I think that any Afghans whom the West will accept actually need to be capable of properly assimilating in the West, similar to the Persians who already live here in southern California. We didn't accept these Persians out of international legal necessity but rather due to a moral obligation to help them out.

Any Afghan who wants to flee Taliban rule but who isn't capable of assimilating in the West (based on whichever assimilation metrics you can choose, whether being a net financial burden, wanting to murder people over Muhammad cartoons, et cetera) should be resettled in other Muslim countries.

 

[WolfBear]

This Afghan woman is an inspiration for feminism:

Afghanistan’s top porn star slams Taliban after dad’s alleged plot to have her killed

The former muslim opened up about the risks she’s taken to pursue sex work after leaving behind her religion and family.

nypost.com

It's just too bad that her family is so close-minded that some of them have literally tried to hire a hitman to murder her for both starring in porn and leaving Islam (apostasy).

 

[Marduk]

Actually, I think that the moral argument for taking in Afghans is that people should be capable of living under a free or at least decent government rather than under Taliban tyranny.

Then let them fight the Taliban to do so in their country...
Oh wait, America already paid and equipped them to do that once and what did they do?
Should people unwilling and/or unable to create a free or at least decent government have an entitlement to share other's country that has one, provided by overly charitable westerners, at the cost of the latter?

But of course I think that any Afghans whom the West will accept actually need to be capable of properly assimilating in the West, similar to the Persians who already live here in southern California. We didn't accept these Persians out of international legal necessity but rather due to a moral obligation to help them out.

The big problem is that the vast majority of people who recognize such obligation consider it more or less unconditional when it comes to cultural assimilation of the people involved.

Any Afghan who wants to flee Taliban rule but who isn't capable of assimilating in the West (based on whichever assimilation metrics you can choose, whether being a net financial burden, wanting to murder people over Muhammad cartoons, et cetera) should be resettled in other Muslim countries.

They are not stupid enough to want them.