History The Responsibility of Emperor Hirohito and Japanese Apologies/Reparations for Crimes Against Humanity

Hitler =/= Hirohito. The level of power Hirohito had in his government was not remotely comparable to Hitler. He was barely more than a figurehead.

Not to mention that, for Imperial Japan, mass murder was a means to an end and not the end goal in of itself. As vicious as they were, I don't think the Imperial Government ever considered a "final solution to the Korean/Chinese question." The driving force in Hitler's life was his maniacal obsession with "world Jewry" and destroying it.
 
Hitler =/= Hirohito. The level of power Hirohito had in his government was not remotely comparable to Hitler. He was barely more than a figurehead.
The Japanese population was willing to fight and die to the last man and woman for Hirohito. Hitler not so much. You underestimate the power of a figurehead. Muhammed has been dead for 1,400 years and some Muslims will rip your face off if you try to draw a picture of him. Figureheads can be very dangerous.
 
The Japanese population was willing to fight and die to the last man and woman for Hirohito. Hitler not so much. You underestimate the power of a figurehead. Muhammed has been dead for 1,400 years and some Muslims will rip your face off if you try to draw a picture of him. Figureheads can be very dangerous.
Yes and obviously very useful too given that MacArthur is pretty damn well liked in Japan for the fact that he spared him and it clearly was extremely useful in keeping Japanese relations up and the reconstruction. Ultimately people liking you a lot doesn’t mean you are responsible for what they do or should be charged as a criminal for what they do. I really don’t get your murder boner here.
 
Yes and obviously very useful too given that MacArthur is pretty damn well liked in Japan for the fact that he spared him and it clearly was extremely useful in keeping Japanese relations up and the reconstruction. Ultimately people liking you a lot doesn’t mean you are responsible for what they do or should be charged as a criminal for what they do. I really don’t get your murder boner here.
Before the end of the War Hirohito had a choice he could have spoken up. But he did not. The people would have literally lynched the Military Brass if he gave the word but he sat on his hands. So he does have blame.
 
Hitler =/= Hirohito. The level of power Hirohito had in his government was not remotely comparable to Hitler. He was barely more than a figurehead.

Hirohito was little more than a figurehead as far as day to day government decisions, but he also had *nearly absolute* authority in principle; that's why he was ultimately able to make the decision to surrender and make it stick.

On the other hand, the Allies' decision to retain Hirohito meant that they intentionally looked the other way regarding war crimes committed by other members of the royal family who were actual senior military officers with decision making power. The Allies decided that retaining the royal family meant that *all* of them had to be *completely* exonerated of all wrongdoing, truth be damned.
 
Before the end of the War Hirohito had a choice he could have spoken up. But he did not. The people would have literally lynched the Military Brass if he gave the word but he sat on his hands. So he does have blame.
When he tried to surrender he was nearly lynched himself man. That was post being nuked. He has importance but surrendering before was not something he actually could have pulled off.


On the other hand, the Allies' decision to retain Hirohito meant that they intentionally looked the other way regarding war crimes committed by other members of the royal family who were actual senior military officers with decision making power. The Allies decided that retaining the royal family meant that *all* of them had to be *completely* exonerated of all wrongdoing, truth be damned.
To be honest I really couldn’t give much of a shit about post war war crime trials. What is and isn’t a war crime is just shit decided by the victors and it largely is just an exercise of power over a defeated enemy. It doesn’t actually matter or mean much. Saying that Hirohito should have been executed or whatever is just overly bloodthirsty and it’s stroking a vengeance boner over something you had literally zero participation in.
 
To be honest I really couldn’t give much of a shit about post war war crime trials. What is and isn’t a war crime is just shit decided by the victors and it largely is just an exercise of power over a defeated enemy. It doesn’t actually matter or mean much.

For "lesser" war crimes like . . . unrestricted submarine warfare, those are clearly . But stuff like the Holocaust and the atrocities the Japanese actually pulled? There's a lot of those that go well into the territory that pretty much everyone can agree is pretty bad shit.

Saying that Hirohito should have been executed or whatever is just overly bloodthirsty and it’s stroking a vengeance boner over something you had literally zero participation in.

Yes, except I made no such argument. The most I said was that the members of the royal house who were *military officers* for which there was actual evidence of involvement in actual non-bullshit war crimes, should not have been covered for by the Allies.
 
I think something to take note of, every invasion by the US after that never had a figure head like the Emperor. Each time, Korea, Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq, and Syria, US forces have been stuck there in a never-ending struggle. The Emperor was able to surrender and make it stick. Going after him for war crimes would just lead to mass rebellion and even more death. Just look at the Taliban, there is no central authority, they are a bunch of tribes each with their own leader who has their own influence. Don't underestimate being able to talk with a single person who can make peace and have it stick.
 
I think something to take note of, every invasion by the US after that never had a figure head like the Emperor. Each time, Korea, Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq, and Syria, US forces have been stuck there in a never-ending struggle. The Emperor was able to surrender and make it stick. Going after him for war crimes would just lead to mass rebellion and even more death. Just look at the Taliban, there is no central authority, they are a bunch of tribes each with their own leader who has their own influence. Don't underestimate being able to talk with a single person who can make peace and have it stick.
... Korea literally had the Kims, which are basically gods. Iraq had Saddam when we invaded over Kuwait, but the second time we deposed him. Syria also has Assad. Then if you include Syria, you are forgetting the Yugoslavia bombing in the 90s as well.
 
... Korea literally had the Kims, which are basically gods. Iraq had Saddam when we invaded over Kuwait, but the second time we deposed him. Syria also has Assad. Then if you include Syria, you are forgetting the Yugoslavia bombing in the 90s as well.
The Kims did not surrender, but arguably the latest Kim is the main person who can make peace. Iraq 'had' Saddam and the war ended. When we killed him the second time it has gone on and on on. Hard to say about the bombings/mini-invasions. Still Syria had revolutionaries. I remember seeing a chart of all the groups and who was fighting who at the height of the conflict and just noped on that.
 
I think something to take note of, every invasion by the US after that never had a figure head like the Emperor. Each time, Korea, Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq, and Syria, US forces have been stuck there in a never-ending struggle.

Vietnam didn't have an Emperor? That would be news to my several-times-great-grandfather. And no, the United States was at no point "stuck" in Vietnam. The United States was there by choice and could leave at any moment it pleased.
 
Vietnam didn't have an Emperor? That would be news to my several-times-great-grandfather. And no, the United States was at no point "stuck" in Vietnam. The United States was there by choice and could leave at any moment it pleased.
Well sure, the US could not have invaded Japan and just let them win WW2 as well. They could have let the Kims have all of South Korea. Stuck means they cannot achieve an end of hostilities on favorable terms.
 
Well sure, the US could not have invaded Japan and just let them win WW2 as well. They could have let the Kims have all of South Korea. Stuck means they cannot achieve an end of hostilities on favorable terms.
We did that in Vietnam then the NVA invaded 2 years after the fact. That's usually left out context though.
 
Well sure, the US could not have invaded Japan and just let them win WW2 as well. They could have let the Kims have all of South Korea.

The difference is that South Vietnam was an inherently artificial puppet regime which had little to no legitimacy in the eyes of the Vietnamese people and was only ever maintained by external force.

Stuck means they cannot achieve an end of hostilities on favorable terms.

How do you even define "favorable terms" in this context? The United States could have achieved favorable terms in Vietnam all the way back at the end of WWII.

We did that in Vietnam then the NVA invaded 2 years after the fact. That's usually left out context though.

South Vietnam would have collapsed regardless, especially after the United States decided that Diem had outlived his usefulness and allowed Ky and Theiu's military junta to proceed with a coup against him. Diem was a ruthless murderer and a traitorous quisling three times over, but he was at least effective at staying in power; without Diem, there was literally no South Vietnamese leader who had any chance of maintaining a stable regime.
 
The difference is that South Vietnam was an inherently artificial puppet regime which had little to no legitimacy in the eyes of the Vietnamese people and was only ever maintained by external force.



How do you even define "favorable terms" in this context? The United States could have achieved favorable terms in Vietnam all the way back at the end of WWII.



South Vietnam would have collapsed regardless, especially after the United States decided that Diem had outlived his usefulness and allowed Ky and Theiu's military junta to proceed with a coup against him. Diem was a ruthless murderer and a traitorous quisling three times over, but he was at least effective at staying in power; without Diem, there was literally no South Vietnamese leader who had any chance of maintaining a stable regime.
Sure but none of that changes what happened. Fact is we did leave on favorable terms. Then two years later the NVA invaded again. Diem's being a shit person and leader has no bearing on that. That being said we really didn't need to try and clean up French incompetence. We didn't learn anything either since we just knocked lybia down for them.
 
Sure but none of that changes what happened. Fact is we did leave on favorable terms. Then two years later the NVA invaded again. Diem's being a shit person and leader has no bearing on that. That being said we really didn't need to try and clean up French incompetence. We didn't learn anything either since we just knocked lybia down for them.

I've argued before that America should have simply done the smart *and* practical thing by telling France to piss off and count itself lucky that it wasn't being made to pay punitive damages for being an Axis power.
 
I've argued before that America should have simply done the smart *and* practical thing by telling France to piss off and count itself lucky that it wasn't being made to pay punitive damages for being an Axis power.
Yep we really should've told the French to pound sand.
 
Yep we really should've told the French to pound sand.
Sadly, the Post-War French Government was just not communist enough to be left to hang. And thus it was more important to prop them up in order to weaken the PCF and secure Western Europe, than to support an ostensibly communist (remember, Ho was actually a member of the PCF before the war, taught at the Lenin University and remained in good standing with the Soviets throughout the great purge) resistance movement in Vietnam of all places
 
Sadly, the Post-War French Government was just not communist enough to be left to hang. And thus it was more important to prop them up in order to weaken the PCF and secure Western Europe, than to support an ostensibly communist (remember, Ho was actually a member of the PCF before the war, taught at the Lenin University and remained in good standing with the Soviets throughout the great purge) resistance movement in Vietnam of all places

1. The French don't need to be Communist to be "left to hang". It was not even remotely in the best interest of the United States to support France; therefore we should not have.

2. The Viet Minh resistance as a whole was not a Communist movement; many of its notable figures were Communist to a degree, but for the most part, the spirit of the movement was that internal political disagreements could be settled after the country was liberated from foreign oppression.

3. Ho Chi Minh was ruthlessly pragmatic over being ideologically Communist; the provisional government which was formed by the Viet Minh after defeating the Japanese was explicitly a Western-style democracy. He recognized that remaining a functionally independent nation while aligning with the Communist bloc while would require a tricky balancing act between Soviet and Chinese influence; aligning with the Western bloc would be safer, if only because the Western nations were much further away.
 

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