History The Responsibility of Emperor Hirohito and Japanese Apologies/Reparations for Crimes Against Humanity

But they did not have the one behind all that mess handed over for trial. The Emperor himself. That could have settled everything.
Imagine if the Allies had captured Hitler and he was not made to stand trial. Do you not think Poland and Isreal would not have legitimate beef.
Actually, the Emperor was damn near totally uninvolved in Imperial Japan's horror show. The generals and admirals did everything in their power to keep him in the dark and out of the public eye, to the point where they tried to assassinate him to prevent him calling a surrender. The war hawk bullshit came out of the military, not the royalty, as opposed to Nazi Germany's case where all the bullshit came directly from the politicians and the military surprisingly often did not like the shit they were being used for.

Heck, the generals and admirals were often at cross odds with eachother, both between individuals and between the two services. There were piles of assassinations and a lot of fucking with the supply chain between the two services and within each of them, due to spectacular rivalries. Imperial Japan was basically undergoing a low-level civil war under the hood.
 
Actually, the Emperor was damn near totally uninvolved in Imperial Japan's horror show. The generals and admirals did everything in their power to keep him in the dark and out of the public eye, to the point where they tried to assassinate him to prevent him calling a surrender. The war hawk bullshit came out of the military, not the royalty, as opposed to Nazi Germany's case where all the bullshit came directly from the politicians and the military surprisingly often did not like the shit they were being used for.

Heck, the generals and admirals were often at cross odds with eachother, both between individuals and between the two services. There were piles of assassinations and a lot of fucking with the supply chain between the two services and within each of them, due to spectacular rivalries. Imperial Japan was basically undergoing a low-level civil war under the hood.
Not true. The Emperor was well informed by his generals and was a definite participant in giving out 8rders such as the "Three Alls" Policy.

The idea that Hirohito was a puppet was invented up to shield him of crimes he helped commit.
 
Not true. The Emperor was well informed by his generals and was a definite participant in giving out 8rders such as the "Three Alls" Policy.

The idea that Hirohito was a puppet was invented up to shield him of crimes he helped commit.
Well, the fact that they did try to assassinate the Emperor before he could surrender, tells me he didn't have total control over the actions of his forces.
 
They weren't going to assassinate him, just kidnap him and destroy the surrender speeches.
Regardless, those are not the actions of officers who respect the authority of their leader. If they were willing to do that, what makes you think they wouldn't be willing to commit atrocities of their own accord? Not that I'm saying the Emperor was entirely uninvolved; I'm just playing devil's advocate here.
 
Regardless, those are not the actions of officers who respect the authority of their leader. If they were willing to do that, what makes you think they wouldn't be willing to commit atrocities of their own accord? Not that I'm saying the Emperor was entirely uninvolved; I'm just playing devil's advocate here.
My impression was that Hirohito was more of a figurehead for much of the 30's and that Tojo/IJA heads were the real power in Japan.

The way the army heads reacted when Hirohito went to surrender is rather indicative of them seeing themselves as the real power in Japan.
 
Hirohito wasn't a figurehead. He was constrained by court protocol but he had genuine power and was often part of war council meetings asking and demanding tasks be done.
If he hadn't surrendered against army wishes, and violated court protocol to end the war using his power, things would have gotten much worse.

Remember the IJA dragged Hirohito and Japan into war to justify their own budget.
 
If he hadn't surrendered against army wishes, and violated court protocol to end the war using his power, things would have gotten much worse.

Remember the IJA dragged Hirohito and Japan into war to justify their own budget.

you know how japan has a nigh pacifist constitution?

That isn't something the united states really imposed on Japan or even wanted. That was the Japanese people just being real sick of the military being out of control.
 
Ok let me put it like this. Lets say a very evil person brutally rapes and kills someone you love. He then leaves and goes back to his home province. You demand that Government hand him over to be tried for his crime. The Government say we are sorry for what he did and hand you $1,000 bucks. But also says we will not be handing him over and he will spend no time at all in jail. Would you yourself have a lifelong beef against that Province or not?

A country having a policy of "no, we don't hand over our citizens to be tried in foreign courts" is something I can understand. But there consequence of that in such a case should be: if your guy ever comes back here, you will not be getting him back.

Blaming an entire nation for the actions of one man, or of government officials who refuse to extradite him (and they may just be following their nation's rules) is illogical.

On the other hand - if the murderer and rapist's home country took a stance of "We are fine with what he did. In fact if you'd caught him and put in him jail we'd be demanding his release!" then we have a more serious problem.
 
As far as I understand it, Hirohito was largely a ceremonial figure.
But there seems to a need among many people in the West to blame all bad actions by government on "dictators". An oligarchy is in reality quite capable of much evil, without one guy giving all the orders. But some people just have to have one human face to impute all of it to.
 
A country having a policy of "no, we don't hand over our citizens to be tried in foreign courts" is something I can understand. But there consequence of that in such a case should be: if your guy ever comes back here, you will not be getting him back.

Blaming an entire nation for the actions of one man, or of government officials who refuse to extradite him (and they may just be following their nation's rules) is illogical.

On the other hand - if the murderer and rapist's home country took a stance of "We are fine with what he did. In fact if you'd caught him and put in him jail we'd be demanding his release!" then we have a more serious problem.
So Communist China. Because that is there policy. Just look at what their officials have done in Africa.
 
As far as I understand it, Hirohito was largely a ceremonial figure.
It's more complicated than that; as far as I can tell, the Emperor had formal power, enough that he can be cast as a willing participant - the Meiji Constitution had been inspired in the German Imperial one, and they gave not inconsequential powers to the Emperor. The thing is, like in Germany, people were(informally) subverting the power of the monarch for some time. Add that to the fact that Hirohito was not(and was raised not to be) the man his grandfather was, and you muddle the picture enough that you can argue either way.

Personally, I don't think he was a willing participant the way he's sometimes painted out to be - there's a Dutch author, I forget his name, which wrote a book defending that line of thought; I think I saw some of the arguments he put forward being mentioned here - because he doesn't seem to have been forceful enough to take the power he was formally invested with, and that, in an era where people weren't shy about overturning their superiors by force, meant he was largely parroting out the lines the group in power were already saying.
 
you know how japan has a nigh pacifist constitution?

That isn't something the united states really imposed on Japan or even wanted. That was the Japanese people just being real sick of the military being out of control.
More like a pissed-off US imposed it, then said "uh, take back?" when the Korean War began, and the Japanese said "lol no."

Now as for the actual argument: that Hirohito was an ignorant puppet is nonsense. He knew what was going on, he gave his full acquiesence to the broader ideas if not some of the gorier details, and he himself realized that there was a good chance he was going to be killed at worst or forced to abdicate in favor of one of his younger brothers at best. I generally think the Tokyo and Nuremberg trials are bullshit and that the ringleaders of both countries should have been straight shot. And if any one person in Japan deserved to be shot, it probably was Hirohito (and Yamashita should have been allowed to live because that was straight bullshit what happened to him.)

The Japanese people would have preferred keeping the throne as an institution compared to ending it altogether, but if the US had really insisted on it, they could have destroyed the throne. MacArthur was the one who was extremely gung-ho about the idea of keeping the Emperor, and it did have major implications in the way in which the Japanese saw the question of war guilt. If the Emperor wasn't guilty, how could any of them be? MacArthur and the throne ended up arguing that the war was committed by a small clique of militarists, of which Tojo was the most famous. But from the Japanese perspective, that meant that they had atoned. The Japanese nation wasn't guilty, a small clique of militarists was. And with the militarists gone, well, what was there to worry about?

Now, could Japan do more to atone for the sins of past, especially as its historiography of the war places a greater emphasis on the suffering they endured as opposed to the suffering they inflicted? Sure. But at the same time, it is also true that there isn't anything they can actually do which will cause China to stop waving the war as a nationalistic symbol.

One thing I find interesting is that I do find the talk about Japan very similar to the talk around the Confederacy. The American South never displayed the slightest in going for Round Two after Reconstruction, nor does Japan have the slightest interest in reviving the Empire again. And in both cases, you have people ignoring that real accomplishment in favor of arguing that the American authorities should have been harsher and broke the country it was occupying to fit more into 20th-century liberal ideals. And in both cases, those people miss the fact that ultimately, you can't actually wipe out existing power structures entirely.

It's not like the US had a mountain of fluent Japanese speakers who were just willing to go live in Japan for the next several years to serve as administrators. In fact, most of the people who had knowledge of Japan before the War were less willing to go as far as MacArthur and his cohorts did. These people were generally more exposed to Japanese upper-class society as opposed to the common people, and thus absorbed the Japanese upper class's argument that you couldn't democratize Japan at all because something something Asians are subservient peasants. By and large, the Americans who administrated Japan after the war didn't know shit about Japan.

This had some advantages in that they were willing to go farther. But the catch was that in order to actually implement anything, they relied a great deal on the pre-war bureaucracy. And while the bureaucracy itself was reformed to some degree, it did mean that turning Japan into a full-blown Western government would have been incredibly difficult at best. And that's before we get into economics: while the US was perfectly willing to funnel gobs of money to Western Europe to rebuild, they looked at Japan and declared, "tough shit. You get nothing." That is, until Korea.
 
Imagine if the Allies had captured Hitler and he was not made to stand trial. Do you not think Poland and Isreal would not have legitimate beef.

Hitler was never going to stand trial, he was always going to suicide or "die resisting capture". There is no way to try him without it being the trial of the century (at least) and without him being allowed to offer a full throated defense; which means it becomes a public spectacle with Hitler having the eyes of the world on him and with nothing to lose (he is dead anyways, there is no other possible outcome of his "trial"). For all that he was an evil SOB, he also had the charisma of the devil.

Put Hitler on the platform that any trial of him would require he has and Germany becomes a nightmare to hold as he will die a martyr after inspiring a massive insurgency.

His committing "suicide" on the other hand when Allied forces raid his holdout bunker? Well that makes him a coward unwilling to stand for his beliefs and makes it easy for his entire movement to be discredited and Germany to be rebuilt in a more acceptable form.

As for Japan and Hirohito, there was no way to hold Japan and remove Hirohito from his throne. Being blunt about it, Japan was always going to be a firmer and better ally for the US than China ever could be as well.

The US did not fight WW2 because of anything as droll as genocide, nor should it have. It fought WW2 because the US was attacked by one of the war's belligerents and US policy (much like British policy) has always been opposed to a unified European power. Once the Japanese lost, their value became their ability to allow the US to control pretty much all of Asia and ensure absolute US dominance of the entire Pacific. That the Japanese raped and pillaged their way across much of Asia was irrelevant to the US - they didn't rape and pillage their way through US citizens. Frankly, it just made them better US allies as the Japanese were fully aware (and still are to this day) that everyone in Asia absolutely hates their guts and will fight to the knife to prevent any resurgence of Imperial Japan. Without the ability to seize territory and resources in Asia, Japan is utterly reliant on natural resource imports that the US can provide or block with ease at any time.

At the end of the day, Japan's war crimes simply make them a more reliable US ally and so the US had (and has) zero interest in trying to punish them for said crimes. Lipservice was paid, appearances were maintained, and life goes on.

It also doesn't hurt that any realistic look at history would show that the Japanese warcrimes were pretty much par for the course for every foreign military adventure of most of human history. Genocide only became a dirty word post WW2, before that it was practically the standard response to conquest.

I mean historically that is how you build nations. You defeat the military, you put every military age male to the sword or work them to death as free labor, your soldiers take the conquered women as basically sex slaves, you put any competing governmental, religious, or civil power structure that you can't securely co-opt to the sword, and you keep the place locked down for three generations.
 
Just pondering the hypothetical probabilities...

You can't really have a Nazi Germany rise up to do Nazi things across Europe without Adolf Hitler leading the party.

You probably could have an Imperialist and Expansionist Japan doing evil things in Asia with a different Emperor then Hirohito.
 

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