Picard returns to Starfleet and is on Active Duty as of 2402. So he is back in commission as an Admrial
What If? Stargate vs Star Trek
- Thread starter ShadowsOfParadox
- Start date
mrttao
Well-known member
how does he manage to do this 3 years after his death from old age?
wait, is this from that trash "star trek picard" show? yea that shit is not canon.
Ignoring intervention by Q or similar entities (basically, a Goa'uld vs. Federation/Fed level players fight), the Goa'uld win.
The UFT (and other Trek powers) are advanced enough that the Goa'uld will take them seriously. It won't be the Goa'uld playing games, messing around with slaves, or deploying Jaffa armies to conquer. Goa'uld will jump hosts into captured Trek personnel to gain knowledge; instantly gaining a complete Trek technical education, political information, societal information, etc.
More importantly in many respects, the Goa'ulds initial plan will be genocide and planetary destruction. The goa'uld both have and use, as a standard weapons system against non-Goa'uld enemies, bio weapons that will depopulate worlds and bombs that will glass planets.
The goa'uld opening move (at least once they captured a single individual and gained the relevant information) would be an entire fleet of Ha'Taks appearing out of hyperspace in Earth orbit and wiping the entire planet in about five seconds, before proceeding to go down the list of federation worlds doing the same thing.
And if the Goa'uld are seriously pushed? Then they do what they did in the golden age of the goa'uld (when they were conquering the Milky Way in the first place) and start mass implantation. All of those symbiotes are pulled out of the Jaffa and implanted en masse into the human slave population. Everyone of those humans instantly becomes a superhuman physical specimen (not quite augment level, but fairly close) who is a master of basically every skill you can think of.
Trek use of tech-of-the-day / superweapons / godly intervention would give them the win, but absent that the goa'uld would win simply because the Trek powers are all utterly unprepared for how the goa'uld view war and how they act.
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People make the mistake with the goa'uld of viewing them through the lens of the SGC while ignoring the actual realities of that conflict. Nirrti implanted nano-tech in Cassandra that would self assemble into a bomb that would trigger the explosion of the Stargate and in the process wipe out a good chunk of North America. Apophis implanted Ryac with a planet killing bioweapon. Anubis threw an extinction level asteroid at Earth, one boody trapped to nova the Sol system if Earth reacted as expected. Ba'al once blew up a planet just because he was a sore loser and didn't want it to go to another goa'uld.
When Earth became a minor annoyance to the Goa'uld, they were prepared (as a collective) to send a few hundred Ha'taks to sterilize the planet. The only thing that prevented that was the Asgard buying them off.
And up until the Replicators decided to genocide the Goa'uld? They were sill the galaxies dominate power.
Anubis lost two of his super mother ships and the goa'uld as a whole lost Ha'Taks by the hundreds in their succession war over the ~10 years of the show between Ra's death and the Replicators wiping out the goa'uld. And despite those losses, the goa'uld were still going strong, still the unquestioned dominate power in the galaxy, and still saw Earth as basically a minor annoyance to be crushed whenever it became convenient/useful.
The Jaffa were never the base of Goa'uld power. They were bully boys who kept the human slaves in line, incubators for future goa'uld, and the pieces used in the Goa'ulds real life RTS game that they played to stave off boredom.
The UFT (and other Trek powers) are advanced enough that the Goa'uld will take them seriously. It won't be the Goa'uld playing games, messing around with slaves, or deploying Jaffa armies to conquer. Goa'uld will jump hosts into captured Trek personnel to gain knowledge; instantly gaining a complete Trek technical education, political information, societal information, etc.
More importantly in many respects, the Goa'ulds initial plan will be genocide and planetary destruction. The goa'uld both have and use, as a standard weapons system against non-Goa'uld enemies, bio weapons that will depopulate worlds and bombs that will glass planets.
The goa'uld opening move (at least once they captured a single individual and gained the relevant information) would be an entire fleet of Ha'Taks appearing out of hyperspace in Earth orbit and wiping the entire planet in about five seconds, before proceeding to go down the list of federation worlds doing the same thing.
And if the Goa'uld are seriously pushed? Then they do what they did in the golden age of the goa'uld (when they were conquering the Milky Way in the first place) and start mass implantation. All of those symbiotes are pulled out of the Jaffa and implanted en masse into the human slave population. Everyone of those humans instantly becomes a superhuman physical specimen (not quite augment level, but fairly close) who is a master of basically every skill you can think of.
Trek use of tech-of-the-day / superweapons / godly intervention would give them the win, but absent that the goa'uld would win simply because the Trek powers are all utterly unprepared for how the goa'uld view war and how they act.
---
People make the mistake with the goa'uld of viewing them through the lens of the SGC while ignoring the actual realities of that conflict. Nirrti implanted nano-tech in Cassandra that would self assemble into a bomb that would trigger the explosion of the Stargate and in the process wipe out a good chunk of North America. Apophis implanted Ryac with a planet killing bioweapon. Anubis threw an extinction level asteroid at Earth, one boody trapped to nova the Sol system if Earth reacted as expected. Ba'al once blew up a planet just because he was a sore loser and didn't want it to go to another goa'uld.
When Earth became a minor annoyance to the Goa'uld, they were prepared (as a collective) to send a few hundred Ha'taks to sterilize the planet. The only thing that prevented that was the Asgard buying them off.
And up until the Replicators decided to genocide the Goa'uld? They were sill the galaxies dominate power.
Anubis lost two of his super mother ships and the goa'uld as a whole lost Ha'Taks by the hundreds in their succession war over the ~10 years of the show between Ra's death and the Replicators wiping out the goa'uld. And despite those losses, the goa'uld were still going strong, still the unquestioned dominate power in the galaxy, and still saw Earth as basically a minor annoyance to be crushed whenever it became convenient/useful.
The Jaffa were never the base of Goa'uld power. They were bully boys who kept the human slaves in line, incubators for future goa'uld, and the pieces used in the Goa'ulds real life RTS game that they played to stave off boredom.
Any Goa'uld attack post Dominion War will go very badly for the Goa'uld.
1: You now have a Starfleet and Klingon Empire that has fought a war against beings that can pretend to be your Personnel. They will be hyper focused on making sure no infiltrators cause trouble in the Alpha and Beta Quadrant.
2: All the Tech that Voyager brought back from the Delta Quadrant. Tech that was retrofitted to existing Federation Ships and Tech that was intergrated into ships like the Titan, the Vestas and the Behemoth that is the Odyssey Class. In which the USS Verity was one of the first. This post Dominion War Starships are an order of magnitude more deadly than want came before the Dominion War. We are talking weapons that can wreck Borg Cubes in a few hits. Add in the trial by fire many Captains got during the Dominion War and you have a Starfleet and KDF that think more like the TOS era of Star Trek than the TNG era of Starfleet. They are way quicker to pull their phasers than talk.
3: Time Travel is very much on the Table with Starfleet and they will use it to undo any action the Goa'uld take.
4: The Goa'uld will run afoul of godlike beings. More than just the Q are roaming around the Alpha and Beta Quadrant. The Organians, the Doud, the Prophets, Tralane's race. and Unlike the Q they have no issue with laying a pimp smack down if push comes to shove.
mrttao
Well-known member
These don't actually address any of the points tippy raised
Eh. maybe. Intentional controlled time travel was only in the hands of the federation in that one failed series that was wildly unpopular and died almost immediately.
You are explicitly replying to an analysis of "what would happen without higher power intervention". And that explicitly noted that godly intervention would give federation the win if it happened
This is Star Trek we are talking about. You literally can't leave out any of the things I brought up because they are intergral to the way the Star Trek Universe is. The Federation overcomes and adapts to all threats they come across. And even when a threat seeming wins. It is literally undone by Archer, Kirk, Picard, Sisko, Janeway, Random Captain on some Starship we never heard of. And saying that no Godlike entities in Star Trek is like saying no Stargates in the Stargate Universe. Not gonna happen. They are all over the place and it is impossible for the Goa'uld to not blunder into them.
So no any situation where you try and make it just this faction with all the other things that make the universe work absent. It is no longer a true representation of what will really happen.
Basically utterly irrelevant. Anyone captured, from random civilians on backwater colonies to Starfleet personnel, will be implanted and thus all of their knowledge instantly becomes known to the goa'uld. The goa'uld don't need, or really desire, to infiltrate.
Assuming for the sake of argument that Trek weapons are effective against goa'uld ships (and no, that isn't a given), its irrelevant. Those ships will drop out of hyperspace literally in orbit around targeted planets and be hitting them with weapons that will level the planet within seconds. And that ignores little things like cloaked vessels with strategic weapons on board simply landing on the planet and deploying their weapons.
When the goa'uld war against outsiders who have the potential to be a threat (or are too advanced), they don't mess around. It's genocide via WMD's without even the pretense of playing nice or obeying anything like rules of war.
And, theoretically at least, the goa'uld could do the same thing. Ba'al did it to take over in that movie after all.
Which makes any debate or discussion utterly pointless.
mrttao
Well-known member
I genuinely forgot star gate had time travel too.
So both sides have time travel and both sides have literal gods.
what a hot mess.
Yea, any discussion would have to omit those.
Also, again reminded of that failed trek show where federation time travel agents are fighting against time travel agents of other powers, vying the future by altering the past. That show was a disaster... anyone remember what it was called?
Blasterbot
Well-known member
star trek the something or other about the patriarchy? something like that. I think they made that failed dem governor lady the president of the united earth. pretty cringe.
Val the Moofia Boss
Well-known member
The Federation was unsuccessful in defending against Changeling infiltration. In the two parter where martial law was declared on Earth and Starfleet was scanning people trying to find Changelings, a Changeling that was imitating O'Brian casually walked up to Sisko and bragged about how useless his measures where and how many Changelings were walking around. Obviously he could be lying trying to demoralize Sisko, but the fact that a Changeling walked up to one of Starfleet's most important military staff on the Federation's capital world and walked away scott free says a lot. Also bear in mind that just a few years prior, Starfleet command was almost taken over by bugs right under everyone's noses.
While Starfleet ships might be powerful, they're still abysmally slow compared to the Goa'uld. Awesome firepower is useless if your targets can outrun you. There are two ways the Federation can move their forces faster, but it depends on reverse engineering alien tech. In TNG, the Enterprise came across an Iconian gateway world that had portals that allowed for instantaneous teleportation across the galaxy. Said world was destroyed, but if the Federation could find another of those gateway stations and figure out how to reverse engineer the technology and allow the instantaneous transportation of fleets, then perhaps the Federation could defend against the Goa'uld ships. Or the Federation could try reverse engineering those Borg transwarp conduits we saw at the end of Voyager.
mrttao
Well-known member
They could probably capture and reverse engineer a hatek too. probably the easiest path
The question is, how many fed worlds would be glassed by the time they manage to refit their fleet with the faster transportation.
The Federation has Quantum Slipstream tech after 2380 so no the Goa'uld no longer have a speed advantage. As to the Changlings and the Bugs. Starfleet protocols for such being was updated post Dominion War.
The Goauld wouldn't do that. Remember, part of that genetic memory they all share is the memory of "being a power hoarding back stabbing egomaniac" and very little of it is "how to play well with other". Creating ten million goauld with knowledge of federation tech means creating ten million new rivals with knowledge you don't have that they can now use against you. Federation technology will proliferate very slowly amoung the system lords, and it will be reverse engineered even slower.
I don't think it was. If you're referencing STO (which I assume you are given the 2380s reference), then starfleet was canonical lousy with undine spies, and had limited problems with bluegills (Commander Vanzyle getting infested, for example).
Well the Undine are one of the very few species in Star Trek that are truly Alien. As in they are not even from the Star Trek Universe but a strange parallel one. Not surprised their shapeshifting would be extremely hard to detect. As to Lt Commander Vanzyle if I am not misremembering. She technically didn't use a transporter on our ship. She left her ship in a shuttlecraft. Got picked up by Sela on her Frieghter and only got discovered on the ground at the other Iconian Gate. At no time did she pass through our transporters.
mrttao
Well-known member
The Goauld have done it before.
If they consider the federation a big enough threat they will stomach the 10 million new rivals for the sake of taking out the true threat.
It won't be done lightly, but they would do it.
Also the Goauld can jump hosts to steal all the knowledge of the new host. The system lords will probably keep the most knowledgeable scientists for themselves. Giving them the biggest amount of federation knowledge amongst the new crop.
There is no need to reverse engineer when you can just steal all the knowledge directly by infesting someone's body.
"Our"?
Can you point to a particular episode or incident to demonstrate that? I can't think of anything.
I meant Starfleet. I was tired when I posted that.
Carrot of Truth
War is Peace
The real question is could the Federation defeat a Milky Way style Replicator infestation before it became overwhelming.
. . . Yes?
Stargate Replicators are well within the "tech of the week" type problems Trek has faced in the past. And due to them lacking the human component that the Borg had, the Federation won't have qualms about deploying a computer virus that completely destroys the replicator network like they considered doing in "I, Borg".
Carrot of Truth
War is Peace
Is the Federation remotely as advanced as the Asgard?