ShadowsOfParadox
Well-known member
I mean... let's be real here, if the Federation encountered the Goa'uld they'd be in full scale war the next week.
What If? Stargate vs Star Trek
- Thread starter ShadowsOfParadox
- Start date
Dude... they would deal with Goa'uld-infected individuals by simply phasering them out of existence.
Or they'd find a way to mass-kill them without harming any of the people. I forget the name of the relevant TOS and TNG episodes.
Conspiracy for TNG, and it was mostly "stun them and then surgical remove the bug", only one guy got phasered to death.
Kirk usually only ran into isolated individuals posing as gods, so his usual solution of just destroying the one God via fisticuffs/destroying their power source/talking them to death/setting thier bald fembot avatar up with his first officer wouldn't apply.
Frankly, the Federation would get curb-stomped.
ShadowsOfParadox
Well-known member
...I am 99% sure you are massively overselling the Goa'uld here.
Nope. They have enough ships to just plain swamp the Federation, and, if there is a tech disparity, it's in favor of the Goa'uld.
And something as technologically advanced and organized as the Federation will be enough to unite ALL of the Goa'uld factions against the Federation. The UFP is a Clear and Present Danger to them.
And something as technologically advanced and organized as the Federation will be enough to unite ALL of the Goa'uld factions against the Federation. The UFP is a Clear and Present Danger to them.
The addition of Naquadah throws that comparison out the window. Power levels are on par with Federation if not higher in potential.
The power level of Stargate is... all over the place regarding calculations... as is Star Trek.
However a few things in the Go'ald's favor:
1. Faster FTL
2. Larger number of ships
Flipside, Trek has a lot going for it too
1. Federation used to dealing with peer/near peer opponents
2. Actually has fought real wars
3. A diplomatic core not made up of idiots
4. Better sensors / more broad understanding of science and application of principles thereof
Yes, the Go'ald are bigger and badder, but they're, well, incompetent in the extreme. They're mustache twirling villains who's technology basically moves ahead in fits because on Go'ald happens to find a subject fascinating... or they conquer a civilization that has new tech they can integrate. Meanwhile, Trek tech is well understood by everyone in Starfleet. The TV show crews were not unusual in being able to Tech tech their way out of things, given lines of dialogue concerning Starfleet (IE Starfleet Corps of Engineers being able to make replicators from rocks) it seems that the Federation Starfleet is well known for its ability to adapt and think outside the box.
This is exceptionally dangerous to the Go'ald. Sure their weapons may be more powerful (but inaccurate in ship to ship combat, especially against the relatively nimble Federation ships), but irregular attacks are going to be their bane. Computer viruses which for the Federation would be a matter of a problem of the week, would devistate the Go'ald, as the vast majority of their forces (being Jaffa) have no idea HOW their technology works, just that it DOES.
So yes, in a pitched battle line everyone up and shoot at each other, the Go'ald hold the advantage. In a more realistic scenario, the Federation would get hammered, but end up turning the Jaffe against the Go'ald via diplomacy, likely manage to divide the system lords against each other also via diplomatic and espionage means, all while in space using irregular attacks against Ha'atak that disable their computer systems leaving them sitting ducks unable to do anything with those massive plasma cannons but look pretty.
However a few things in the Go'ald's favor:
1. Faster FTL
2. Larger number of ships
Flipside, Trek has a lot going for it too
1. Federation used to dealing with peer/near peer opponents
2. Actually has fought real wars
3. A diplomatic core not made up of idiots
4. Better sensors / more broad understanding of science and application of principles thereof
Yes, the Go'ald are bigger and badder, but they're, well, incompetent in the extreme. They're mustache twirling villains who's technology basically moves ahead in fits because on Go'ald happens to find a subject fascinating... or they conquer a civilization that has new tech they can integrate. Meanwhile, Trek tech is well understood by everyone in Starfleet. The TV show crews were not unusual in being able to Tech tech their way out of things, given lines of dialogue concerning Starfleet (IE Starfleet Corps of Engineers being able to make replicators from rocks) it seems that the Federation Starfleet is well known for its ability to adapt and think outside the box.
This is exceptionally dangerous to the Go'ald. Sure their weapons may be more powerful (but inaccurate in ship to ship combat, especially against the relatively nimble Federation ships), but irregular attacks are going to be their bane. Computer viruses which for the Federation would be a matter of a problem of the week, would devistate the Go'ald, as the vast majority of their forces (being Jaffa) have no idea HOW their technology works, just that it DOES.
So yes, in a pitched battle line everyone up and shoot at each other, the Go'ald hold the advantage. In a more realistic scenario, the Federation would get hammered, but end up turning the Jaffe against the Go'ald via diplomacy, likely manage to divide the system lords against each other also via diplomatic and espionage means, all while in space using irregular attacks against Ha'atak that disable their computer systems leaving them sitting ducks unable to do anything with those massive plasma cannons but look pretty.
The only way the Go'uald stand a chance long term is if Anubis or Baal are at the helm.
Anubis's supersoldiers would waste the ground forces of most Alpha and Beta quadrant powers.
The real wild card would be who the Dominion side with; the Gouald are not a threat to Changlings the same way they are to humans, at least in terms of having their body taken over.
If Anubis decided to try to hit and or capture the homeworlds of the Alpha/Beta quadrant powers, he could hold the hostage to take over and provide hosts.
However, transporters should be able to filter out a Gouald symbiote, if someone 'coughO'Obrien/Bashircough' puts 2+2 together.
Anubis's supersoldiers would waste the ground forces of most Alpha and Beta quadrant powers.
The real wild card would be who the Dominion side with; the Gouald are not a threat to Changlings the same way they are to humans, at least in terms of having their body taken over.
If Anubis decided to try to hit and or capture the homeworlds of the Alpha/Beta quadrant powers, he could hold the hostage to take over and provide hosts.
However, transporters should be able to filter out a Gouald symbiote, if someone 'coughO'Obrien/Bashircough' puts 2+2 together.
I don't actually know if that's the case. System lord fleets top out at a few hundred, and that was late in the series when power had consolidated under a handful of system lords (or occasionally even just one), early on a fleet of dozens of ships was a huge formation by system lord standards. The system lord fleet might be heavier on average, being almost entire composed of cruiser equivalent ships like the Ha'tak*, but I don't think it's got anywhere near the numbers starfleet does.
*and the Al'kesh, but I don't think the Al'kesh is suited to ship to ship combat. Certainly the system lords don't seem to.
I doubt that. Kull warrior armor is bulletproof and immune to energy weapons, but not blades or blunt trama, so at the very least the Klingons will be fine. And it's DEW protection is intended to stop stargate weapons like staff weapons, which doesn't mean they'll work equally well on any energy weapon, like a phaser and it's disintegration effect.
The Founders consider anyone not under their thumb to be a threat them. Their man concern would likely be the free jaffa and thier rebellion, as that's an idea they really don't want spreading. They're not pulling the same sort of god ruse as the gou'ald (Jem'Hadar and Vorta know how thier technology works and even that the Founders genetically engineered them, unlike Jaffa who are largely ignorantly), but it's a similar enough system to worry them, particularly because thier system is arguably even more brutal. Jaffa have a society, families, culture, entertainment, etc. Jem'Hadar are just grown as weapons and usually die before they see 30.
Last edited:
Not how it looks to me.
Goa'uld transporters are strictly pad-to-pad, and also seem to be quite short-range. Only the Asgard have transporter tech comparable to what is normal in Star Trek - and use it in a weaponized way that the Federation could do as well, if it were not for their moral inhibitions.
Personal force-fields are nice, but the Borg have better ones. Every time we've seen a Goa'uld use them, he had to stand still while powering it. And they don't share those nice toys with their mooks.
Goa'uld weapons seem to be purely thermal - bolts of plasma. Nothing exotic like phasers or disruptors.
Who has FTL drive that goes faster?
Well, Warp Drive can literally get you to your destination before you left, if you're willing to take insane risks like the Slingshot Maneuver.
Been a while since we had a good old-fashioned "vs" debate.
Granted, but we also have weird numbers for the Federation. Wolf 359 was considered to be a devastating defeat for the Federation that gutted much of the Starfleet, and only involved, from what we saw, dozens of ships.
But then we get to the Dominion War and see fleets larger than what fought at 359 throw casually around.
I'm willing to give the raw ship numbers to the System Lords, they actually have a pretty large empire, it's just they're really spread out.
I think one thing we can all agree on is that Deathgliders are just a joke to Starfleet though.
Pretty sure the average Starfleet SHUTTLE is better than a Deathglider.Stargate's hyperdrives are reliably faster than Trek's Warp drive. And while you CAN argue for the Slingshot maneuver, that's not something that can be used for fleet actions or regularly at all. I'm all for reminding folks the Starfleet ain't above using Time Travel cheats, but that has ALWAYS been reserved for last ditch hail marry situations, not a conflict that while nasty, they have a lot of potential avenues to exploit without falling back on that.
This doesn't mean those would be ineffective against Starfleet. The single most powerful ship to ship weapon seen in the TOS days was just a thermal plasma torpedo as deployed by the Romulans (TOS: Balance of Terror), and the Romulans, a definite technological peer power of the Federation, continued to use Plasma Torpedoes as a weapon up through the Dominion War (DS9: Shadows and Symbols). As such we cannot assume that just because they are using "simple" plasma weapons those weapons would be ineffective.
I think one thing we can all agree on is that Deathgliders are just a joke to Starfleet though.
I'm actually not 100% sure about that. Shuttles are certainly tougher, but I think the glider might be more agile and more effective as a combat craft then shuttles. Though I agree it's not particularly relevant since starfleet ships should be able to casually eliminate a sqaudron of gliders.
Really? How good is starfleet's resurrection technology? Or their personal cloaking devices?
1. The discussion thus far has been starfleet, not anyone in star trek. And starfleet doesn't have personal forcefields outside of the STO era (and even then they're not standard issue).
2. Gou'ald shields don't require you to stand still to use them, and they're arguably better than borg shields because they block everything outside of low velocity objects and cannot be blasted down by small arms, while borg shields only block a specific frequency of a specific energy weapon after repeated exposure and might be vulnerable to brute force.
From what I understand by the end of the Dominion war the UFP had something like 45,000 ships left and the Dominion at one point maintained 120k strong fleet with only three shipyards in the AQ.
The only thing the snakes have going for them is FTL. Even their firepower advantage is something I dispute because I dislike the lingering Wongite influence in how trek firepower is analyzed.
They very clearly have gigaton tier firepower. Trouble is so do the Snakes and they seem to have slightly higher firepower.
Not that it matters in the long run.
Damn the SG writers needed to handle the cosmology of the setting better though.
The only thing the snakes have going for them is FTL. Even their firepower advantage is something I dispute because I dislike the lingering Wongite influence in how trek firepower is analyzed.
They very clearly have gigaton tier firepower. Trouble is so do the Snakes and they seem to have slightly higher firepower.
Not that it matters in the long run.
Damn the SG writers needed to handle the cosmology of the setting better though.
I actually don't think that's the case. In fact, I think it is very much NOT the case.
Their wikipedia sources that the RPG suggests that a System Lord will control anywhere between 2 and 24 Ha'taks. Obviously that isn't the complete military resources that the System Lords have at their disposal, but the Ha'taks are clearly the bulk of their military space assets. This is supported by such episodes where System Lords have had a fleet of 16 Ha'taks, 10 Ha'taks, 30 Ha'taks, and 40 Ha'taks. With the last being the battle that broke the System Lords. The 30 comes from Anubis's invasion of the Earth and after its loss, had dramatically altered the power within the System Lords.
If the RPG is anything to go by and if the other numbers are reasonable, a loss of 30 ships would in fact, be catastrophic and works with what was implied by a sudden shift in power among the System Lords with Anubis's defeat.
Given this and assuming there are roughly 40 System Lords, their Ha'taks would number no more than 960. However, that would only be taking the upper end. In reality, lower ranked and capable System Lords probably are as low as about 2 or somewhat more and we should therefore adjust the number to somewhere around 480 Ha'taks.
And while there is a tech disparity in favor of the Goa'uld, it's not a consistent disparity. For example, the vast majority of the working population of the Goa'uld empire lives in poverty and in many cases, at the medieval (or lower) technological level. In short, the Goa'uld lack the infrastructure and workforce to ramp up their military production. That is not to say that they can't replace a lost ship quickly or produce new ones--merely that this is not sustained output for the Goa'uld.
I don't even think that the Goa'uld have the cultural capacity or bandwidth to wage total war. Their culture is one in which they hold all the best cards. They act and think as gods. Their only equal were the Asgardians, who were untouchable and held little interest in doing anything but containing the Goa'uld Empire. There is very little innovation or creativity within their society and what little there is often comes from the upper echelons of their society. Most of their population is left untapped.
That's not necessarily true? The Goa'uld, despite their luxurious existence, are political creatures. More than one of them are going to recognize that the UFP--while too difficult to swallow on its own, is not going to be intent on eradicating them. There is going to be some conflict and reluctance in how to deal with them. And that can range from simple refusal to engage the UFP or even as little as not fully committing their forces to an offensive.
In regards to firepower, the Ha'taks do have a firepower and defensive advantage. Their shields seem to be able to tank 1 gigaton nukes without any real problems and their staff cannons seem to top out at around 200 megatons. That said, this is not something that can't be overcome. At Wolf 359, the UFP was able to quickly mobilize 40 ships against the Borg Cube on relatively short notice (although while on alert) and of course, when on war footing, the UFP could mobilize several hundred ships to a few thousands for large scale battles.
In any case, an alpha-strike from 40 UFP ships, even if every ship only fired 4 photon torpedoes, would amount to about 7,200 megatons. Of course, we know that ships are generally able to fire up to around 12 torpedoes for some of their larger ships, so this figure is probably going to climb to more around 8 torpedoes (effectively) per ship, with the overall figure being around 14,400 megatons. Given that Ha'tak capital ships have about 60 of these (though rarely all of them are firing at once at a single target--more likely just a handful of guns are focused at a time--I estimated no more than 1-2 dozen) and are able to penetrate enemy shields of other Ha'taks within seconds, this is not going to be something that the Ha'tak is just going to be able to shrug off.
It also doesn't take into account the possibility of the UFP simply upgrading their photon torpedoes by adding more antimatter and we know in fact that torpedoes can be set to higher yields that rival that of the Ha'tak staff cannons. There's certainly a cost to that (specifically the antimatter reserves of the ships firing the torpedoes and probably a drop in torpedo effectiveness), but it's not an egregious one.
Overall, a Ha'tak will outmatch any Federation ship by its sheer size and firepower, but the UFP can make up for it with greater numbers in ships and of course, orbital defenses. The UFP also incorporating fighters, which can carry full torpedo yields, against these Ha'taks will also make up for the difference in firepower. It'll lack the staying power of the larger ships, but they'll be able to hand out some hard hits with fighter waves.
In any war, I expect that the System Lords will have a strong initiative. They'll take a handful of planets with ease and will only manage to be dislodged by high numbers of Federation ships or orbital defenses. Losses will probably be few to begin with for the System Lords in the beginning. However, I think that momentum will begin to grind to a halt not long into the war. Each planet will have to be pacified. And while the System Lords can nuke a planet without any trouble--it defeats the purpose of taking said planet.
Which means an occupation. And I don't think the System Lords have the numbers in Jaffa to dominate the hundred or so planets of the Federation. They're going to get resistance fighters who are not only determined and idealistic, but also highly educated and sophisticated. Their only option is either a long and painful occupation that lasts years and ties up their resources--or bombing the planet into rubble until the population is both small enough and timid enough to accept their occupation with the Jaffa that they can spare for such a thing.
And doing such a thing essentially reduces the value of capturing the target in the first place. Even if we assume that the System Lords think that this is a reasonable price to pay, its a delayed benefit to themselves and would galvanize the Federation into fighting harder, because the general population will believe (rightly) that their way of life is about to be wiped out. And even then, the System Lords are going to have to contend with the Federation starting rebellions within their controlled areas. And the Jaffa--like it or not, are simply not able to handle a resistance that is armed with sophisticated technology.
Photon grenades, phaser rifles, hold-out phasers, tricorders, and small transporter stations--these are all things that could seriously complicate any Jaffa force, who are typically entrusted bullying unarmed medieval serfs. That's not to say that the Jaffa won't be able to put down these rebellions or sniff out the UFP's forces, but it's going to tie up the Jaffa and it's going to inflict cost on the System Lords. Especially if a System Lord ends up losing a ship or a planet over it. And this has happened against the far less sophisticated (though more battle hardened) Earth forces.
There is also the issue of technology transfer. In their struggle against the Earth, a lot of Goa'uld secrets fell into their hands of Earth and the American military. The UFP is going to be working from a far more sophisticated position than what SG1 worked from. It has the entire resource of hundreds of member worlds and thousands of colonies to work from. It has hundreds, if not thousands of intelligence officers to put on the task of obtaining Goa'uld technology. Section 31 will be in play.
So while the System Lords are facing a grinding halt to their invasion as they try to dominate planets and maintain offensive capabilities, they're also going to be facing a Starfleet that is increasingly closing the technological gap between them. It makes the matter worse if Starfleet is able to obtain a gate or two, from which they can launch their own SG-lite incursions into the Goa'uld Empire.
From a cultural, economic, and military perspective--I don't think the Goa'uld can win this war. They have a technological and military advantage, but I don't think that's going to be enough to win this.
That's definitely not correct, the highest number we have for starfleet is 30k, and that was just Ronald Moore on AOL going "yeah, sure they could have that many ships", so it's both speculative and not canon.
The combination Dominion, Cardassian, and Breen fleet numbered around 30k late in the Dominion War, vs a klingon fleet of 1,500 ships and Romulan and Federation fleets of undetermined size but combined with the Klingons of generally equivalent power to the Dominion force. Everyone had taken a beating by this point, but it wasn't ever suggested that the allies had been whittled down to a fraction of thier prewar strength. And the 30k Dominion number was likely inaccurate or hyperbolic, even if we assume the feds and Romulans had twice the number of ships the Klingons did, that still leaves the combined allied fleet fighting at almost 3 to one odds, which doesn't match the numbers we see elsewhere.
The most definitive number comes from STO, which established that Starfleet lost about a thousand ships during the war, and that the early days of the war saw almost a third of the fleet wiped out, which puts starfleet's total fleet size in the range of 3000 or so ships. This also lines up with DS9, where the Dominion was very concerned about the movement of a few hundred ships (which would be irrelevant in a fleet of tens of thousands but not so in a fleet of thousands) and further the Dominion expected to win the war entirely with just 2800 additional ships.
Federation fighters almost certainly do not carry full sized or full yield torpedoes, given that a 14 meter long craft obviously does not have space to carry a bunch of meter long missiles or a launcher for them, and they can't carry them as external ordinance as torpedoes cannot propel themselves without a launcher (as shown by Year of Hell). Most sources, such as the DS9 TM and STO, clarify this by giving fighters smaller mirco-torpedoes that they could actually fire, which also deals with dialogue from the shoe suggesting they are armed with torpedoes. Smaller, lighter torpedoes further suggest starfleet fighters are not effective in a anti-capital ship role, which the show also backs up as it took multiple sqaudrons making repeating attack runs to disable cardassian ships in Operation Return, when a full sized ship with full sized weapons can do so much faster.
Some things people are forgetting with the Goauld:
1) Not shy about bioweapons usage to pacify/punish planets. This could be a real nightmare for the UFP if someone like Nirrti is given free reign to...play with conquered/unpacified planets. UFP medical tech is good, but some of Nirrti's shit was rather hardcore, and if she gets any Fed tech to play with, oh boy...
2) Baal isn't stupid and has not drank the 'I AM A GOD' kool aid, innovates faster than most snakes, and is not above negoatiation if it will save him ships/hassles/Jaffa. Once Baal gets his hands on a replacator, the Goauld are likely to see a decent, if slow, tech boom.
3) Anubis has some knowledge of the Alterans, and thier tech. Unless they follow him into this ST universe, Anubis may no longer be forced to limit his tech usage to things he could only have knowledge of before he ascended. If Anubis no longer fears the Alterans limiting him, he may come up with some real nasty shit, fairly fast. Like say creating ZPMs to help boosted System Lord firepower.
1) Not shy about bioweapons usage to pacify/punish planets. This could be a real nightmare for the UFP if someone like Nirrti is given free reign to...play with conquered/unpacified planets. UFP medical tech is good, but some of Nirrti's shit was rather hardcore, and if she gets any Fed tech to play with, oh boy...
2) Baal isn't stupid and has not drank the 'I AM A GOD' kool aid, innovates faster than most snakes, and is not above negoatiation if it will save him ships/hassles/Jaffa. Once Baal gets his hands on a replacator, the Goauld are likely to see a decent, if slow, tech boom.
3) Anubis has some knowledge of the Alterans, and thier tech. Unless they follow him into this ST universe, Anubis may no longer be forced to limit his tech usage to things he could only have knowledge of before he ascended. If Anubis no longer fears the Alterans limiting him, he may come up with some real nasty shit, fairly fast. Like say creating ZPMs to help boosted System Lord firepower.
I'm not sure the Gou'ald are going to be able match up to UFP doctors, and I'm very sure you're overestimating how often the system lords use biowarfare. That was more of an Ori thing, the Gou'ald typically enforced thier rule through brute force.
Both Ba'al and Anubis have the same limit as the other system lords, regardless of thier personal traits. They have a very small number of people they can work with to advance their technology because of how Gou'ald society works. Ba'al has a tech guy that he can lean on to do R&D, whereas the federation can put together a massive team. They have the SCE, an entire organization of tech guys they can call on. The system lords cannot out R&D the federation.
Last edited:
Actually, they may carry full-sized or near full sized torpedoes (not all torpedoes are the same). The Peregrin is actually 24-25 meters in length, not 14. This is more than enough for a fighter to carry a number of torpedoes or missiles.
Second, the microlauncher that you're referring to is as far as I can tell, specific to the Danube class runabouts (although, it may be in wider circulation with other platforms). The microtorpedo in question is about 12 cm long and is placed into the launcher by an access hatch in the floor of the Runabout's cabin. It is then loaded into those little wing nubs on the side of the cockpit of the Danube.
That isn't really what we see with the Peregrine Fighter. The Peregrine generally has only two weapon locations. One is under the nose of the fighter and is either twin phaser banks or twin torpedo launchers.
We are also aware of small nubs on each side of the Peregrine's wings. These were confirmed to have fired phasers in at least one episode.
In Operation: Return, we saw torpedoes being fired from what may have been from the nubs.
The problem with it being from the nubs is that they're too large and look to come from under the wings, though this is difficult to ascertain given the angle. It is also at odds with what we see in the other episode when the phaser banks did fire. And we know from the script that these were quantum torpedoes they were firing. That really leaves us with a couple of options of how to interpret this scene.
1) The FVX crew got it wrong. This is not unusual for Star Trek. They have yet to actually fire a disruptor from an actual disruptor cannon of a Romulan Warbird. Instead choosing to fire it out of a painted insignia, the deflector dish, and the chin. In which case, we can probably assume that the torpedoes were probably fired from twin launchers at the nose of the fighter. That matches fairly well with what we see on the model.
2) We take what we saw as gospel. That means that either the chin weapon system is not a twin launcher or cannot fire full-sized torpedoes. In either case, those larger weapons may be fired from hardpoints from the fighter itself, rather than from an internal feed and launcher system.
As to the weapon yield. Perhaps I might have been hasty, as I had forgotten how close the fighters actually where when they fought and smaller craft seem to use ammunitions that detonate upon impact, where as most ST torpedoes are supposed to use a proximity detonation. If it was a proximity detonation, there should be no problem. The fighters would be able to carry firepower roughly on par with the capital ships. If they're impact-detonators, similar to the standard Klingon torpedo used primarily by the BoPs, then the yield is probably between several hundred tons to a handful of gigatons, in order to penetrate the shields of a Galor class vessel (not to mention its armor).