What If? Stargate vs Star Trek

[Bear Ribs]

Smaller, lighter torpedoes further suggest starfleet fighters are not effective in a anti-capital ship role, which the show also backs up as it took multiple sqaudrons making repeating attack runs to disable cardassian ships in Operation Return, when a full sized ship with full sized weapons can do so much faster.

It is not apparent to me from the videos that they needed multiple squadrons making repeated attack runs, it looks more like a single squadron of fighters are blowing holes in the hull in a single pass.

 

[The Immortal Watch Dog]

Snip

Ah yes, the legendary capacity of spacebattlers to downplay absolutely everything manifests itself fully in this post.

In a single engagement the UFP loses over a thousand ships, with the war dragging on the way it did and it was mentioned to be a recurring thing with the losses being so commonplace people were being dissensitizied to them. The augments believing that the war would cost nearly a trillion sentients and Sisko just shrugging and going "worth it." Etc

I'll never understand this need to go with low end showings and not consistent high end feats but those numbers are patently absurd. They're not really even supported by what's on screen.

 

[The Original Sixth]

It is not apparent to me from the videos that they needed multiple squadrons making repeated attack runs, it looks more like a single squadron of fighters are blowing holes in the hull in a single pass.

It's actually in the dialogue. Although I'd have to go back and see the episode to see about the level of damage that was done. Still, I don't see any evidence that the Galor had been damaged before. I think we can take the actual hits as if they were on fresh shields.

 

[Bear Ribs]

It's actually in the dialogue. Although I'd have to go back and see the episode to see about the level of damage that was done. Still, I don't see any evidence that the Galor had been damaged before. I think we can take the actual hits as if they were on fresh shields.

Hmm, I mean it's patently clear in the dialogue that Sisko sent in multiple waves, but not that those waves were all directed at a single enemy ship. It looks from the FX more like he sent multiple waves but we see Galors visibly taking damage from a single pass so it seems more reasonable that he was sending the fighter waves against different ships and inflicting damage here and there to aggravate them, not all of them against one single Galor that didn't start taking real damage until the tenth wave.

 

[Battlegrinder]

Ah yes, the legendary capacity of spacebattlers to downplay absolutely everything manifests itself fully in this post.

In a single engagement the UFP loses over a thousand ships, with the war dragging on the way it did and it was mentioned to be a recurring thing with the losses being so commonplace people were being dissensitizied to them. The augments believing that the war would cost nearly a trillion sentients and Sisko just shrugging and going "worth it." Etc

I think you might be misrecalling or conflating various elements. The 7th fleet once lost about a hundred ships, and that that was amoung the most devistating loses of the war, exceeding only by Chintoka once the Breen joined the war. I can't find or recall any mention of greater loses, and if the federation was losing thousands of ships all the time, that should have been mentioned at some point in the show.

Also, people were not desensitized to losses, we see people still struggling and cry as late as "In the Pale Moonlight" when they read causality lists. Which is was a list of personnel causalities, not starships, so they doesn't support a massive rate of destroyed ships.

I'll never understand this need to go with low end showings and not consistent high end feats but those numbers are patently absurd. They're not really even supported by what's on screen.

The only high end number is the 30k dominion ships figure from "When it Rains", a figure derived from the low end consistent figure that the Klingon fleet was only about 1,500 hundred ships strong, and if the Klingon fleet had been whittled down a merely fraction of it's pre-war numbers, that's again something someone should have mentioned at some point. Everything else, from TOS to Wolf 359 to Nemesis to STO, suggests a fleet in the low thousands at most.

And even the 30k "high end" figure is a bit overstated in terms of what those numbers really mean. The dominion relied heavily on jem hadar fighters for a huge chunk of it's fleet, and that was a ~90 meter long ship. Even a smaller federation ship like a Nova or Saber class was twice that size, and most are much larger. It's easily possible the dominion enjoyed a substantial numerical advantage, while the gap in total tonnage was much more favorable.

That isn't really what we see with the Peregrine Fighter. The Peregrine generally has only two weapon locations. One is under the nose of the fighter and is either twin phaser banks or twin torpedo launchers.

Ok, since you apparently own one of the models, can you measure those launchers and see if they're the correct size to fit a full torpedo through?

And we know from the script that these were quantum torpedoes they were firing. That really leaves us with a couple of options of how to interpret this scene.

1) The FVX crew got it wrong. This is not unusual for Star Trek. They have yet to actually fire a disruptor from an actual disruptor cannon of a Romulan Warbird. Instead choosing to fire it out of a painted insignia, the deflector dish, and the chin. In which case, we can probably assume that the torpedoes were probably fired from twin launchers at the nose of the fighter. That matches fairly well with what we see on the model.

2) We take what we saw as gospel. That means that either the chin weapon system is not a twin launcher or cannot fire full-sized torpedoes. In either case, those larger weapons may be fired from hardpoints from the fighter itself, rather than from an internal feed and launcher system.

It seems highly questionable to go "well, according to the non-canon script, the ship has quantum torpedoes, so let's contort the canon visuals around that conclusion, even to the point we assume that what we saw onscreen that is canon is not accurate in favor of the non-canonical script".

And as I said before, they can't be fired from external hardpoints, and you should know that, because aside from the canonical events of "Year of Hell" that I cited, in section 11.3 of the TM, the same TM you're relying on for the "most torpedoes are proximity detonations" bit that the actual show doesn't back up in the slightest (instead going for direct impacts virtually without expectation), it explicitly states that the torpedoes engines require initialization from the launcher's field induction coils, and so that without that system, photon torpedoes cannot be fired.

then the yield is probably between several hundred tons to a handful of gigatons

So it's somewhere between a decent sized bomb from WW2, or several dozen times larger that the biggest nuclear weapon ever made. How helpful.

This is why I assume ton for ton equivalence, because you get a fairly clear figure for firepower, vs the absurd results that occur with your method.

 

[The Original Sixth]

Ok, since you apparently own one of the models, can you measure those launchers and see if they're the correct size to fit a full torpedo through?

Not my model or pictures.

A quick and dirty measuring with my computer though suggests that the length is about 1.366 meters and the barrel for the launcher is maybe .26 meters. That's a little too small to be a photon torpedo launcher, but it's also far too large to be a microtorpedo launcher.

It may be something more akin to the photonic missile that the Delta Flyer (at 21 meters) is armed with. That would make more sense than either a full-scale photon torpedo or a microtorpedo.

It seems highly questionable to go "well, according to the non-canon script, the ship has quantum torpedoes, so let's contort the canon visuals around that conclusion, even to the point we assume that what we saw onscreen that is canon is not accurate in favor of the non-canonical script".

And as I said before, they can't be fired from external hardpoints, and you should know that, because aside from the canonical events of "Year of Hell" that I cited, in section 11.3 of the TM, the same TM you're relying on for the "most torpedoes are proximity detonations" bit that the actual show doesn't back up in the slightest (instead going for direct impacts virtually without expectation), it explicitly states that the torpedoes engines require initialization from the launcher's field induction coils, and so that without that system, photon torpedoes cannot be fired.

Take a chill pill? They're stated to be quantum torpedoes. I didn't pull it out of my ass or anything.

Now, as to your concern in regards to the Peregrine's torpedoes. I cited the possibility of them being launched from hardpoints as a possibility, I did not suggest that it was the case. ST weapons consistently portray weapons as being held within internal bays and fired via some sort of launcher. Second, we don't know every type and model of photon torpedo. It is certain that the one we saw in Year of Hell can't be fired without a launcher, but that is not necessarily the case in all instances.

Now, in regards to the issue of proximity detonations.

First off, this is necessary to be consistent with multi-megaton photon torpedo detonations and the shield and phaser outputs of ST ships. The TNG TM clearly indicates a shield output in the GW range (and only for short bursts) and the weapons are in the high MW to low GW range, depending upon the ship in question. These sort of figures are roughly consistent throughout the show and the TM, where MW and GW and occasionally TW figures are mentioned. You are already familiar with these figures, so I will not waste time going over them with you.

It is also consistent with engagements that may (though not always) occur at long ranges, from hundreds to thousands to tens or even hundreds of thousands of kilometers. Expecting a ship to get a direct hit with a photon torpedo at those ranges is fairly unrealistic. More likely than not, the torpedo is actually going to be closer to a few to several hundred meters off the target. This explains how a ship can take damage from a low GW disruptor cannon, but also be expected to contain with multi-megaton warheads. In the event where a direct hit is mentioned or indicated--it is not without reason to assume that the torpedo in question is carrying a lower yield, most probably in the tons to kiloton range.

You may also wish to check with Q Who and the Nth Degree, which explores situations where torpedoes detonating even indirectly, at maximum yield, is a direct threat to the Enterprise.

So it's somewhere between a decent sized bomb from WW2, or several dozen times larger that the biggest nuclear weapon ever made. How helpful.

Sorry, I'd gotten distracted when I'd written that. What I had meant to say was that it was between several hundred megajoules of energy to several gigajoules.

 

[The Original Sixth]

I think you might be misrecalling or conflating various elements. The 7th fleet once lost about a hundred ships, and that that was amoung the most devistating loses of the war, exceeding only by Chintoka once the Breen joined the war. I can't find or recall any mention of greater loses, and if the federation was losing thousands of ships all the time, that should have been mentioned at some point in the show.

Starfleet was certainly not losing thousands of ships all the time. That would indeed have been really, really bad. As for the 7th fleet, they had actually lost 98 ships. 14 out of 112 had returned. At the Battle of Chin'toka, they had lost 311 out of 312 ships.

The only high end number is the 30k dominion ships figure from "When it Rains", a figure derived from the low end consistent figure that the Klingon fleet was only about 1,500 hundred ships strong, and if the Klingon fleet had been whittled down a merely fraction of it's pre-war numbers, that's again something someone should have mentioned at some point. Everything else, from TOS to Wolf 359 to Nemesis to STO, suggests a fleet in the low thousands at most.

You're mistaken, I'm afraid. Sloan from S31 told Bashir that the after the Dominion War, the Klingons would need 10 years to rebuild from their losses. This is not surprising, as the Klingons had gone through a bad time. They invaded Cardassia with almost a full third of their military assets. For a full year of the Klingon's invasion and occupation of Cardassian space, the guy in charge of the invasion was...General Martok. As in, his Changeling imposter. Who had every incentive and opportunity to make sure he inflicted as much damage on the Klingons as he did the Cardassians and Federation forces. By the time the Dominion forces "liberated" the Cardassians, the remnants of Gowron's forces had regrouped at DS9.

Keep in mind the cultural background of the Klingons. They don't shy away from death and so their casualty tolerance is probably rather high compared to what most armies would accept in their position. They also have a strong reluctance to give ground once they take it. I can't imagine Gowron would retreat unless he had suffered catastrophic losses. There was little more than a hundred ships that must have made it to DS9, by the looks of it.

Finally, we should look to Operation: Return. The Federation forces there were outnumbered 2 to 1. And it was more or less a nail-biter until the Klingons arrived with a few hundred ships to tip the balance. We might therefore argue that Starfleet can be expected to win, on average, fights with Dominion ships on a 2 to 1 ratio. The idea that the Klingon's full military might is around 1,500 ships doesn't work with the numbers of being outnumbered 20 to 1. Because that would mean that the full alliance gathered would be outnumbered over 6 to 1. There is simply no way that math works out looking at their previous engagements. Romulans don't change the math either; their Tal Shiar fleet got clobbered when faced with 3 to 1 odds.

What this tells me is that the combined forces of the entire alliance must be 15,000 ships or close to it, otherwise the math just doesn't work. You need at least ~10,000 ships for the allied forces even with 3 to 1 odds. The only way to make this work is for the allied powers to each have roughly 6,000 ships in their fleet. The KDF lost ~2,000 of their forces to the Cardassian War and later Dominion liberation.

The Federation dedicated 4,000 of its ships to the war effort, with another 2,000 ships from the KDF sent from the Empire to bolster their strength. In the early stages of the war, the Dominion was slowly grinding the UFP and KDF fleets into dust. Assuming they needed about 2 to 1 odds, they probably had 12,000 ships, with maybe 2,000 of them being Cardassian warships. The 2,800 ships that Dukat eagerly needed to help bolster his fleet probably would have sealed the deal in their favor for 14,800 ships.

When the Romulans joined the war, they might have dedicated anywhere between 2,000 and 4,000 ships. That would have drawn the number up to 7,000 and 9,000 ships. That was a turning point in the war, as the Dominion began to suffer reversals after that. That would make sense, as the Dominion no longer had the 2 to 1 advantage it needed to maintain its edge. It would have gone down to around 1.3 to 1, which isn't enough.

Honestly, the figures work better if the Romulan General had said 10 to 1. But I suppose it's possible that the Dominion had shifted from building large warships to small Dominion fighters towards the end of the war. That would have greatly bolstered their ship count, while staying within the means of reality. Since the Dominion would then need a 3 or 4 to 1 number count to win, it would explain why they were still losing despite the lopsided numbers. The Breen was their ace in the hole, but after their EMP-esque weapon stopped working, the UFP and its allies seemed to roll right over them.

If Starfleet and its allies had 9,000 ships to the Dominion's 30,000 and the Dominion needed a 4 to 1 win ratio at that point, then it makes sense that they were losing so badly. And of course, we can't forget about Damar's betrayal and taking a good chunk of the Cardassian military with him.

 

[Spartan303]

My take on this is very nuanced and will be very general. But while I'm a huge Stargate fan I don't think the Goa'uld can pull this off. Hurt the Federation badly, sure. Win and conquer? Not a chance.

Assuming the Federation as of just before the Dominion War then I think this will be a very interesting fight.

In space the Goa'uld have a firepower edge, stronger shields, sensors equal too or greater than Federation ships. In a straight up fight one on one, a Ha'tak is going to win. The Goa'uld also have a superior FTL speeds and can dictate any engagement based on that.

The issue is that the Federation are no slouches in battling peer enemies. And for all the power individual Goa'uld ships have, their ability to coordinate that power is severely lacking. There is also the Federations industrial base. Quite simply its MASSIVE in comparison to the Goa'uld and more than capable of competing if not stomping the Goa'uld on an industrial scale.

So despite all their advantages I think the Federation will win.

 

[Rhyse]

My take on this is very nuanced and will be very general. But while I'm a huge Stargate fan I don't think the Goa'uld can pull this off. Hurt the Federation badly, sure. Win and conquer? Not a chance.

Assuming the Federation as of just before the Dominion War then I think this will be a very interesting fight.

In space the Goa'uld have a firepower edge, stronger shields, sensors equal too or greater than Federation ships. In a straight up fight one on one, a Ha'tak is going to win. The Goa'uld also have a superior FTL speeds and can dictate any engagement based on that.

The issue is that the Federation are no slouches in battling peer enemies. And for all the power individual Goa'uld ships have, their ability to coordinate that power is severely lacking. There is also the Federations industrial base. Quite simply its MASSIVE in comparison to the Goa'uld and more than capable of competing if not stomping the Goa'uld on an industrial scale.

So despite all their advantages I think the Federation will win.

I do wonder if the Federation would even end up killing that many Goa'uld. The average Goa'uld is mentally ill, as in, they aren't meant to be that dammed evil. The overuse of the ancient healing technology has driven the entire species completely, bugfuck insane. The only reason they're even functional anymore seems to be the generational memory granting them enough understanding of science/subterfuge/statecraft to counterbalance the absurd sadism/paranoia/neurosis.

If the Federation is contacted by the Tok'ra, and getting detailed medical scans of what Goa'uld neurophysiology is supposed to resemble rather than the - undoubtedly - ruined tangle of psychosis of the average Goa'uld, they may switch from 'war on the slavers!' to 'Jesus fuck, humanitarian aid!' The Goa'uld have never actually faced a peer opponent before. Not just in terms of firepower, but in terms of territory and width of understanding. The Tau'ri had the boom boom and the opportunity to take them down, the Replicators were just a swarm, the Asgard had no real interesting in dealing with the Goa'uld, the Tok'ra were essentially space Vietcong; the Tollan were too small and uninterested.

The Federation has the depth of scientific understanding, and the depth of medical knowledge dealing with random alien species that they might not even have to fight the entire Goa'uld Empire, so much as they need to repeatedly disable lone ships, extract the symbiote; and then fix them. The Federation aren't morons either; a new 'empire' of recently made sane Goa'uld is better than a balkanised mess of sane/insane Goa'uld ripping into each other, which is better than a desolate patch of space that the Federation has had to tear out of the hands of genocidal lunatics system by system.

The Federation have the technology to clone mindless husks of people, which would be an 'ethical' way for the Goa'uld to exist - assuming they don't just trad the technology for robots, or something similar to act as a substitute - which could be used as a way to keep 'reformed' Goa'uld in line. Though, the Jaffa would forever be dependent to some degree on some larger power, be it a reformed Goa'uld, or an actual Goa'uld, or the Federation medical 'industry'. A replacement for Tretonin would be easily with the UFP's biochemistry prowess, but the modification of a human offshoot by the UFP is flat out not going to happen. There would need to be a benevolent Goa'uld, a section 31 op - and they don't seem the type to pull shit like this - or action by the Tok'ra to let the Jaffa have children that aren't bound to the symbiotie forever.


In terms of actual war, the Federation definitely has the advantage in terms of 'defence in depth'. The Goa'uld hyperconcentrate their powerbases, and most leave the holdings underdeveloped; the Federation builds up pretty much every world they operate on, they run large numbers of absurdly huge starbases, waystations, science platforms and general space based infrastructure. Plus, there's a very real chance that the Goa'uld 'Grand Alliance' - which would form - might collapse fairly quickly at the start of their war. Most of the Goa'uld are very much creatures of habit, seeing their rival smash his fleets into Federation space, goring the border and getting deeper and deeper into it before their losses force them to pull back or halt; would present an enticing chance to pounce and take them out easily enough. The Goa'uld aren't dumb, but they are chronic in their bastardry and backstabbing.

 

[Blasterbot]

I guess my main question here would be where in the time line of star trek would we be? ST is much less stagnant than the goa'uld. how do people think the OG federation would stack up? early next gen? after borg encounter? after the dominion? the feddies adapt and learn from their opposition not always perfectly but they are advancing.

 

[Battlegrinder]

I guess my main question here would be where in the time line of star trek would we be? ST is much less stagnant than the goa'uld. how do people think the OG federation would stack up? early next gen? after borg encounter? after the dominion? the feddies adapt and learn from their opposition not always perfectly but they are advancing.

I'm not sure how much advancement there really was in the TNG era, we're still talking about a fleet that's still using Excelsior and Miranda class ships as the bulk of thier fleet well into the Dominion War. Sure, the cutting edge ships are improving, but most ships are far older.

It's also not clear how much those cutting edge shops feature improved technology vs the same/equivalent technology used better. A Sovereign class is probably a more capable combatant than a GCS, sure. But is it more capable because it's phasers are better, or because it just has a few more of them?

 

[Blasterbot]

I'm not sure how much advancement there really was in the TNG era, we're still talking about a fleet that's still using Excelsior and Miranda class ships as the bulk of thier fleet well into the Dominion War. Sure, the cutting edge ships are improving, but most ships are far older.

It's also not clear how much those cutting edge shops feature improved technology vs the same/equivalent technology used better. A Sovereign class is probably a more capable combatant than a GCS, sure. But is it more capable because it's phasers are better, or because it just has a few more of them?

Asking if we going with the OG trek or the early TNG or after borg or after dominion war is very relevant. Feds massively changed culturally and economically between those points.

 

[Battlegrinder]

Asking if we going with the OG trek or the early TNG or after borg or after dominion war is very relevant. Feds massively changed culturally and economically between those points.

Between TOS and TNG, sure. But what are thinking changed massively between earily TNG and Nemesis?

 

[Val the Moofia Boss]

Between TOS and TNG, sure. But what are thinking changed massively between earily TNG and Nemesis?

TOS and TNG Trek depicted the Federation as an utopia. Its citizens are never poor and everyone acts idealistically. Evil people are the exceptions to the rule.

Starting with later TNG and DS9, the Federation starts being depicted as the USA in space. "People on Earth live in luxury while people on the frontier don't!" (I think it was Edison or Sisko who said that, can't remember). People start acting more self-centered such as seeking to climb up the ranks. The Federation government starts being depicted as corrupt and morally bankrupt like modern governments, abandoning their people along the Cardassia border and then labelling those people fighting for their homesteads as terrorists, breaking treaties with their secret cloaking projects. Admiral Ross. Also, if you believe that Sloan isn't just some lone crazy man and that there is actually a Section 31 organization, then the Federation government would almost certainly be aware of and tacitly in league with an organization that blatantly violates the Federation's supposed principles with the spying and the bioweapons and such. You also had Insurrection where they were going to wipe out a populated planet trying to harvest the awesome medical tech (whether those people were morally obligated to move for the greater good aside, mass murder is still mass murder).

Before, when there was a crazy admiral of the week, he came off as an exception and not representative of the Federation as a whole, but later on it definitely starts feeling like the Federation is corrupt.

 

[Battlegrinder]

TOS and TNG Trek depicted the Federation as an utopia. Its citizens are never poor and everyone acts idealistically. Evil people are the exceptions to the rule.

Eh, not really. Even way back in TOS the federation could be shady, "The Enterprise Incident" comes to mind, along with the entire plot of ST6, plus TNG and it's insane Admiral of the week.

Starting with later TNG and DS9, the Federation starts being depicted as the USA in space. "People on Earth live in luxury while people on the frontier don't!" (I think it was Edison or Sisko who said that, can't remember).

The idea that's it's tough out on the frontier has always existed, even back in TOS. The idealism of ST was in how they defined "rough". Bashir joined DS9 for the thrill of "frontier medicine" working on the edge of federation space. His idea of "roughing it" is "working in a fairly well equipped medical facility with a staff of capable but non-federation assistants, on an entirely functional 2nd rate space station".

Life on the federation frontier is tough, as compared to life on earth.

People start acting more self-centered such as seeking to climb up the ranks.

....not really?

The Federation government starts being depicted as corrupt and morally bankrupt like modern governments, abandoning their people along the Cardassia border and then labelling those people fighting for their homesteads as terrorists, breaking treaties with their secret cloaking projects.

That's an extremely overly simplified version of the maquis situation. For one, the federation didn't call them terrorists until they started committing acts of terrorism.

You also had Insurrection where they were going to wipe out a populated planet trying to harvest the awesome medical tech (whether those people were morally obligated to move for the greater good aside, mass murder is still mass murder).

Uh, no. That was not the plan in Insurrection. The plan was to relocate the people, not murder them.

 

[Bear Ribs]

Part of the idealism slide between TNG and DS9 was simply the Zeitgeist of the era they were made in. TNG came out right as the Soviet Union fell, everybody was proclaiming peace in our time, and the future was bright and rosy, it was the end of history!

DS9 came out years later when terrorism was on a massive increase (with bonus milspec equipment thanks to the former Soviet Union selling it to all comers no questions asked), bushfire wars were popping up faster than the US could respond to them, and we'd just finished off the first war in Iraq proving that peace wasn't going to be so "in our time" and the future wasn't so rosy.

 

[Sailor.X]

The power level of Stargate is... all over the place regarding calculations... as is Star Trek.

However a few things in the Go'ald's favor:
1. Faster FTL
2. Larger number of ships

Flipside, Trek has a lot going for it too
1. Federation used to dealing with peer/near peer opponents
2. Actually has fought real wars
3. A diplomatic core not made up of idiots
4. Better sensors / more broad understanding of science and application of principles thereof

Yes, the Go'ald are bigger and badder, but they're, well, incompetent in the extreme. They're mustache twirling villains who's technology basically moves ahead in fits because on Go'ald happens to find a subject fascinating... or they conquer a civilization that has new tech they can integrate. Meanwhile, Trek tech is well understood by everyone in Starfleet. The TV show crews were not unusual in being able to Tech tech their way out of things, given lines of dialogue concerning Starfleet (IE Starfleet Corps of Engineers being able to make replicators from rocks) it seems that the Federation Starfleet is well known for its ability to adapt and think outside the box.

This is exceptionally dangerous to the Go'ald. Sure their weapons may be more powerful (but inaccurate in ship to ship combat, especially against the relatively nimble Federation ships), but irregular attacks are going to be their bane. Computer viruses which for the Federation would be a matter of a problem of the week, would devistate the Go'ald, as the vast majority of their forces (being Jaffa) have no idea HOW their technology works, just that it DOES.

So yes, in a pitched battle line everyone up and shoot at each other, the Go'ald hold the advantage. In a more realistic scenario, the Federation would get hammered, but end up turning the Jaffe against the Go'ald via diplomacy, likely manage to divide the system lords against each other also via diplomatic and espionage means, all while in space using irregular attacks against Ha'atak that disable their computer systems leaving them sitting ducks unable to do anything with those massive plasma cannons but look pretty.

The Readers Digest Summary.

Don't Push the Pink Skins Through the Thin Ice!!!!

 

[mrttao]

One thing to consider is that the Goauld mass produce parasites. Most are intentionally not implanted, instead being put in special Jaffa pouches. Or just left unused for later instasis.
But they can very easily do mass implantation on captured star trek individuals.

Imagine the Goauld capturing a frontier federation world with "only" 10 million people... all of which are fully educated in federation tech.
And converting every single one of them into a Goauld.

Now you got 10 million Goauld with the knowledge of federation tech (thanks to plundering their host's memories) and knowledge of Goauld tech base thanks to acestral memory.

A big question is whether the federation will realize what is happening. And if the Goauld are going to have the time to actually use this to ramp up and build enough star ships to compete. It is entirely plausible they will just get overrun.

Also, while many mentioned the the Goauld uniting against the federation, the federation could ally with various other powers (cardassians, klingons, romulans, etc) against the Goauld. since the Goauld present a clear and present danger to all of those polities, not just the federation.

Incidentally. With their advanced tech knowledge, and the fact that Goauld tech is all stolen anyways (they found ancient Alteran tech which they reverse engineered), and the Goauld susceptibility to computer viruses... it shouldn't be too hard for the federation to reverse engineer the Goauld tech either.

Also something to remember is that due to the legacy of the Eugenics war the average IQ of a human in star trek is 160 not 100.

 

[Sailor.X]

One thing to consider is that the Goauld mass produce parasites. Most are intentionally not implanted, instead being put in special Jaffa pouches. Or just left unused for later instasis.
But they can very easily do mass implantation on captured star trek individuals.

Imagine the Goauld capturing a frontier federation world with "only" 10 million people... all of which are fully educated in federation tech.
And converting every single one of them into a Goauld.

Now you got 10 million Goauld with the knowledge of federation tech (thanks to plundering their host's memories) and knowledge of Goauld tech base thanks to acestral memory.

A big question is whether the federation will realize what is happening. And if the Goauld are going to have the time to actually use this to ramp up and build enough star ships to compete. It is entirely plausible they will just get overrun.

Also, while many mentioned the the Goauld uniting against the federation, the federation could ally with various other powers (cardassians, klingons, romulans, etc) against the Goauld. since the Goauld present a clear and present danger to all of those polities, not just the federation.

Incidentally. With their advanced tech knowledge, and the fact that Goauld tech is all stolen anyways (they found ancient Alteran tech which they reverse engineered), and the Goauld susceptibility to computer viruses... it shouldn't be too hard for the federation to reverse engineer the Goauld tech either.

Also something to remember is that due to the legacy of the Eugenics war the average IQ of a human in star trek is 160 not 100.

Just one problem in the mix. The Goa'uld doing that to the Federation would mean causing something to happen to Picard. And we all know a certain powerful being that likes to give Picard clues that something is a miss. Q may not directly attack the Goa'uld but he will give Picard a hint that something is rotten in Denmark. And then Hero shananganns begin.

 

[mrttao]

Just one problem in the mix. The Goa'uld doing that to the Federation would mean causing something to happen to Picard. And we all know a certain powerful being that likes to give Picard clues that something is a miss. Q may not directly attack the Goa'uld but he will give Picard a hint that something is rotten in Denmark. And then Hero shananganns begin.

That is a good point.
Although... would the Ascended from stargate get into a fight with the Q over their interference? The Ascended in stargate do not particularly like the Goauld, but are draconian in their enforcement of "thou shalt not interfere with the lesser races" rules.

However, that is only enforcement on their own people whom they can easily bully. They probably would not go to war with the entire Q collective over this.

Also... Picard lives from 2305 to 2399 in canon. So... would the setting collision happen to coincide with him being an active starfleet captain? what if it happens during the Kirk days when Q is not yet interfering?