Star Wars Star Wars Discussion Thread - LET THE PAST D-! Oh, wait, nevermind
- Thread starter Urabrask Revealed
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All interesting points... which doesn't address my main concern which is why Knights of the Republic 3: Neverwinter Knights didn't have the midgame climax where the Jedi Exile kick open the Sith Prison Vault door, a single wall of light illuminating the imprisoned Revan and Revan can be like "Your arrival was foretold."
And Meetra can be like "So that's why you've been sitting on your ass this past decade? If I wanted the Jedi Council, I could've stayed in the KNOWN regions."
Revan starts to squint, the light blinding him. "Blinded by the light Revan? Me too." Meetra smirked. "Here, these will help..." The Exile tosses Revan a pair of sunglasses which he promptly puts on, triggering the in game event where you now get to control Revan, but only after autoleveling him up thirty times.
"What's the plan General?" Revan asks.
"Ten years of emotional torture wreck your brain Revan? I was hoping you'd of precognitioned a good one by now," the Exile says, frowning as she fixes his disheveled hair. "This Zakuulan Boomer has a millenia of preptime on us."
"Valkorian? That's not his true name. It's not even his true form. He sold out to the ancient true Sith centuries ago," Revan said still auto leveling up whilst maxing out his healing skill like a total chud.
"What did it cost him?" Meetra asked, raising a curious eyebrow.
"Four billion Whills," Revan replied grimly when Meetra, stepping over like a hundred dead Sith Warrior bodies, gestures towards a neatly parked obsidian Black Sith Swoop Bike.
"No training wheels on this. You think you can handle it?" Meetra asks mockingly, clearly having gone renegade option.
"I'm a flyer. I'm a driver. And I waited a long time for a shot like this," Revan replies, sitting up front in the drivers seat where he belongs. Meetra, groaning at the cringe dialogue, sits behind him. "By the way, where is the Jedi Council?" Revan then asks.
"Jedi Council is dead Revan. I rescued them and Kreia killed them.They were on Dantooine. Dantooine!" Meetra commented, clearly having come over the loss.
"And where's Kreia?" Revan asked curiously.
"Kreia's dead babe. Kreia's dead," Meetra replies rolling her eyes. "But don't worry, her acolytes made like... a thousand lore crystals documenting her teachings."
"Well, I guess there's no reason to go back. Let's give this another try," Revan said. "Third times the charm."
"Three times?" the Exile asks incredulously.
"Yeah, After the Mandalorian Wars. My apprentice and I confronted the Sith Emperor. It went poorly," Revan says, a shadow of doubtful regret crossing his face as Meetra frowns. But he glances over his shoulder a moment later, seeing Meetra grinning. "That's funny to you?"
"No offense, but your first Apprentice was a pussy. He was more jaw jaw and less war war," Meetra said, causing Revan to chuckle at the inadvertant pun she unknowingly disclosed.
"Says the General who ditched me after Malachor IV..." Revan says, kicking the swoop bike into gear.
"Sithspit. Don't start with me. I will assume direct control of this party. Now lets get moving, this prolonged dialogue is killing the streaming potential of this game," Meetra said, slapping him on his head before the Swoop Bike kicks off into the distance. "So do you have a plan?"
Knowing the Game Devs are creatively bankrupt beyond nostalgia, Revan nods knowingly. "I think I'm bringing the band back together. Here I updated the Ebon Hawk's map."
Wow this went on way too long as a gag post.
Bear Ribs
Well-known member
I think it's worth noting, most of the fandom had the exact same opinion at the time. There was a lot of widespread rejoicing (without regard to politics) at the thought that not only were we going to get more Star Wars movies, they'd be made with the same care and attention as the early MCU movies. Disney's decline wasn't nearly as apparent. Rogue One came out and there was even more rejoicing because it was good, had a female lead that wasn't woke, and generally everything looked rosy as we prepared for the main event.
Then we got the sequel trilogy and places like SB had to lock every thread about them for a couple of years straight to make sure there wasn't any wrongthink going on and people weren't generating reports.
Skallagrim
Well-known member
That's true, although there were worries from the start and throughout. My recollection of events (which I try not to distort with my own opinions, to be clear):
1. Sale of LucasFilm to Disney is announced in late 2012. Fans generally overjoyed, as you say. The prospect of new sequels is seen as a big positive. The most recent MCU film at this point is The Avengers, and people hope that Disney will do with LucasFilm what they did with Marvel. Even most hard-core EU fans are readily willing to accept that this means the end of the post-Endor EU. The Denningverse is pretty controversial ayway. Some fans hold out hope that some of the post-Endor EU (like, through Vision of the Future) will remain canonical. Most people are realistic enough to know that's not happening.
2. Disney announces the entire EU is scrapped. Even everything pre-Endor. That wasn't so universally expected, and there's some real grumbling about this. Casual fans of course don't give a fuck, but to hard-core fans, this seems like a pretty big shock.
3. The notion of Abrams as director (but not writer!) is received very well, as is the idea that they're using an outline provided by Lucas. This, after all, fits with the general understanding that Lucas is a great "ideas guy" but bad at writing it out in detail (and particularly bad at dialogue/charactisation).
4. Abrams takes over as writer. Lucas's notes are, apparently, not being used. That's again of no concerne o casual fans, but to peple who are really into SW, I recall this being viewed as pretty worrisome. ("Ah shit, this better not be another Into Darkness...")
5. Trailer for TFA comes out. Looks really good. Additionally, they've really stressed in the previous year that Kasdan (whose reputation, rightly or wrongly, is at this point that he had a big role in "fixing" the writing for Lucas) is the co-writer. Overall enthousiasm is enormous.
6. TFA comes out. Overall reception is positive, with the big complaint being that it's a re-hash of ANH and basically a soft-reboot. But there is a minority of fans who point out that it has all the typical Abrams-isms (which usually don't cause problems initially, but further down the line). But overall, the opinion is: "It was spectacular but un-original, and it left a lot of questions. If we can get a good follow-up addressing that, everything's golden!"
7. Rogue One comes out. Generally received very positively. Things still looking good.
8. In the run-up to TLJ, its writer-director shows himself to be an utter ass, actively trying to crap all over the fans. The mood begins to shift.
9. TLJ comes out. Most of the older fans (meaning "those who were SW fans before Disney") hate it. It's heavily pushed by the critics (because Johnson is part of their clique, and Disney is pushing for positive reviews) and defended by a cadre of new fans (meaning people who only got into SW with the sequels). In actual fact, the wider public, while not caring so much, doesn't like the film very well.
10. Which is demonstrated when Solo comes out, and audiences stay away in droves. This has little to do with Solo, which is okay-ish on its own terms, but with the fact that TLJ has killed audience enthousiasm. By this point, the people who were worried from the start have been vindicated. Abrams was a hack, and Johnson is a jerk.
11. TRoS comes out, and it is crap. From this moment on, Disney is forever fighting an up-hill battle. Which could be fixed by moving to the small screen and delivering great content there, but...
12. ...That doesn't pan out, either. Rebels is okay but not the "new TCW" they were hoping for. Rebellion is crap and nobody watches it. Releasing a final season TCW is a good move, but it's a one-off by default, and they put in some really annoying new characters, which confirms that "Disney additions" are just detrimental. The Mandalorian starts off promising, but loses speed too quickly. Book of Boba Fett is a mess, Obi-Wan Kenobi is even worse. Andor is actually good, but you're left wondering: will it stay good, or will it deteriorate like everything else...?
All of this has been a long way of saying that I agree with you. Things really went off the rails after Rogue One, namely with TLJ. But of course the rot was already there. If they wanted things done right, they shouldn't have rushed it. They should've given Arndt the extra year he knew he needed to write a good script for VII, they should've kept Abrams from being involved in the writing, they should've kept Johnson out altogether, and they should've assembled a behind-the-scenes writing/continuity team to map out the overall plan for SW (and that team should've consisted of actual writers, with someone experienced in charge -- the way Luceno ran things for the NJO series).
Speaking of shitting on Disney SW:
This just reinforces the idea that I'd of liked to of seen more of GunGun culture beyond the lens we got in The Phantom Menace and Jar Jar Binks yukking it up everytime they were on screen. An aquatic warrior culture and all that jazz is a neat concept and I liked the tech they briefly showed of them with their underwater cities and the energy Boomahs etc.
Lord Sovereign
The resident Britbong
Lucas fowled up the portrayal of the Gungans from the word go. They should not have been comic relief, but the savage native warrior race of the planet Naboo. These guys would have been an absolute menace to the human colonists for thousands of years, and by the point of Phantom Menace the Naboo see the Gungans as bestial, terrifying creatures (whilst on the other hand the Gungans would see the Naboo as alien invaders who stole their land). You'd have even seen enmity between JarJar and the Queen's retinue.
In some respects I think that would have made the two peoples's decision to fight, and die, against the Trade Federation a rather profound thing.
Skallagrim
Well-known member
I seem to recall that some elements in this direction were present in the earlier draft(s) for TPM. There were overt instances of anti-Gungan racism, and the humans learning to respect the Gungans after the latter save them despite having been mistreated was a key point of the finale.
Of course, a lot of the earlier plans for TPM provoke a sense of "why didn't you keep that idea?!"
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Lord Sovereign
The resident Britbong
I always reckoned something like that was beneath the surface, as evidenced by the big parade at the end where Padme gives Big Boss Brian Blessed that glowing orb. I thought that was some ancient treasure of the Gungans taken in battle that is now returned as a show of good faith.
But what I was sort of getting at (which I don't think Lucas would have done) is giving the Naboo very good reason to fear the Gungans. They both hate each other for justified reasons (you could have multiple "Gungan Wars" in the planet's history. Naboo does not have its Star Fighter corps for nothing), with oh so many Gungan boasts and war songs being about marching through the streets of Theed in triumph.
Which, in an ironic twist, is exactly what they do at the end of the film.
Rogue One was fucking amazing and I'd say it was an improvement over the original EU story of how the Rebellion got their mitts on the Death Star plans (that game, while nostalgic, wasn't... good).
That Vader scene at its climax was fucking epic. It was a true horror movie moment.
"Help us!"
...And then the Sequel Trilogy with Mary Sue Rey-Palpatine-but-Appropriated-the-Name-Skywalker. And then Solo, which butchered Lando into being a weirdo that wanted to fuck everything and anything.
But, hey, at least we got more Darth Maul at the end of Solo, even if it was just for one scene.
Bear Ribs
Well-known member
Yeah, I'm just saying the people excoriating Lucas for selling it, I feel, aren't looking at the situation it was then but rather with 20/20 hindsight. Disney was on a roll, hadn't gone Woke yet, and was producing excellent films. We all felt like it was a positive step forward and Lucas couldn't have foreseen where it would go.
I had a feeling Disney would fuck it all up back when the sale was first announced, and that they were scrapping all the EU.
I was called a "hater" on SB (yes, it was that far back, haha), and I was basically shouted down/dogpiled.
And I, and the others who thought like me at the time, were proven a hundred percent correct after just a few years, and especially after TFA was released.
I said the same thing with Doctor Who when they announced Jodie and Chibal were taking over. Again, I was right.
When you develop pattern recognition for this shit and people call you everything negative under the sun, you know you're doing something right, lol.
Val the Moofia Boss
Well-known member
I never understood why TFA was liked. TFA killed my interest in the Disney Star Wars trilogy. It had no authenticity. You wouldn't buy tickets to a "Metallica" concert that starred people who weren't Metallica, would you? There are two original members of Metallica: Lars Ulrich and James Hetfield. They have always been in the band. If they are not present, then you do not have Metallica.
George Lucas was gone. John Williams was still around in name only. No new recognizable themes, the orchestra is relegated to providing constant dissonance, like every other modern movie score. You don't get that constant moving along of melodic themes with an orchestra sound. The movie was creatively bankrupt. It's a ostensibly a new trilogy, a new era, but it rehashes the aesthetics and setting of the original trilogy. The actual execution of the movie was poor. In TFA, the movie is barreling through scenes at a breakneck pace. There is no time to have a moment of reflection. In the original trilogy and in the prequels, there were moments of reflection where characters talked quietly to each other, or sat and looked at the scenery while the score played and let you know their mood and how they were feeling. Luke stares at the twin suns.
Poe mocks the bad guy in the first scene and isn't killed on the spot. The bad guy for the trilogy - a ruthless galactic warlord - gets beaten by a girl who had no lightsaber training. How is this guy supposed to be threatening? Where is the tension? The characters aren't respectable either. Han Solo was a smuggler who developed convictions and became a respectable general. He should be commanding fleets or have become an elder stateman, but here he's an absent father who abandoned his family and has reverted to bumming around the galaxy in his old crappy spaceship as if he's still in his 20s. And so on.
George Lucas was gone. John Williams was still around in name only. No new recognizable themes, the orchestra is relegated to providing constant dissonance, like every other modern movie score. You don't get that constant moving along of melodic themes with an orchestra sound. The movie was creatively bankrupt. It's a ostensibly a new trilogy, a new era, but it rehashes the aesthetics and setting of the original trilogy. The actual execution of the movie was poor. In TFA, the movie is barreling through scenes at a breakneck pace. There is no time to have a moment of reflection. In the original trilogy and in the prequels, there were moments of reflection where characters talked quietly to each other, or sat and looked at the scenery while the score played and let you know their mood and how they were feeling. Luke stares at the twin suns.
Poe mocks the bad guy in the first scene and isn't killed on the spot. The bad guy for the trilogy - a ruthless galactic warlord - gets beaten by a girl who had no lightsaber training. How is this guy supposed to be threatening? Where is the tension? The characters aren't respectable either. Han Solo was a smuggler who developed convictions and became a respectable general. He should be commanding fleets or have become an elder stateman, but here he's an absent father who abandoned his family and has reverted to bumming around the galaxy in his old crappy spaceship as if he's still in his 20s. And so on.
It was basically A New Hope retread, right down to the subtle design intentions behind it (such as the Knights of Ren being like how the Sith were supposed to be back in the 70's, when Star Wars was first released -- "Lord of the Sith" was basically a meaningless title until the EU and other films fleshed them out. This was the time when Darth Vader's name was literally Darth Vader, mind).
Seriously, I could do a checkbox comparison of tFA and aNH.
Of course, when this was pointed out, I and others like me who saw this shit were called "negative" and vehemently argued against, lol.
I mean, for fuck's sake, they even had a Death Star analogue which was destroyed by blowing up one critical weakness... like the fucking Death Star.
Edit:
Still gives me fucking chills.
There's a line in the background from one of the soldiers asking "is that a Jedi?". Oh, you sweet summer child, but understandable given the in-universe context.
Jaenera Targaryen
Well-known member
Didn't someone mention how standards have fallen thanks to Disney Star Wars?Speaking of shitting on Disney SW:
LMAO that Jar Jar of all characters is now being seen as a good character. WTF? This is practically Roman comedy
Zyobot
Just a time-traveling robot stranded on Earth.
Yep, me and @Karmic Acumen both.
I know I've said it before, but it's a sad state of affairs when I'm halfway satisfied that Rey's not a ranting Feminazi who gives men the cold shoulder and waxes angry about how toxic masculinity is the root of everything wrong with the Galaxy. Because really, that should be a given, as it was with previous female leads who actually stood on their own merits.
LMAO that Jar Jar of all characters is now being seen as a good character. WTF? This is practically Roman comedy
Basically, yet more proof we live in what could very well be the wackiest pop-culture TL ever.
Sure, we only have one history to reference (our own), but even as something of an AH veteran, I can hardly imagine ATL worlds out there where entertainment has swerved in crazier directions than ours! Only thing I can think of right now that's even more maddening than OTL is one in which the Sequels were upbeat musicals or some self-evident nonstarter like that — and even then, I'd hardly argue such a world is implausible, given all the out-of-left-field OTL developments that'd make SW fans from as recently as 2013 scratch their heads in befuddlement.
Skallagrim
Well-known member
This is why I made a distinction, in my earlier post, between my own opinions and my accounting of "the overall impression" as I observed it at the time. Don't forget that loads of people just consume whatever the studio dishes out. And back then, the number of such people was way higher than it is now (because since then, things have gotten so much worse that more and more people are getting off the crazy train).
But anyway, this is why there was a minority (including me, and -- I expect -- both of you) who got "a bad feeling about this" when Abrams was announced as director. And were pretty certain the film would at least have issues as soon as it became clear he'd gotten involved in the writing process. Because Abrams is known for being the least original copy-paster in Hollywood.
And sure enough, that's what he did. Later evidence about the time-line of production makes it explicit that it was Abrams who personally made the film more and more like ANH, until it was a carbon copy.
1. Wacky ATL where instead of cancelling the (funny, but obviously farcical) Hyperspace Hoopla shows, Disney decides to use them as the basis for their new SW films. Comedy ensues.
2. Wacky ATL where Lucas sells his company to an Indian company, and they proceed to re-create SW as a Bollywood epic. Awesome comedy ensues.
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gral
Well-known member
I think that the Sequel Trilogy's greatest crime was it made the flawed(but tolerable, even good in some points) Prequel Trilogy look good.Didn't someone mention how standards have fallen thanks to Disney Star Wars?
LMAO that Jar Jar of all characters is now being seen as a good character. WTF? This is practically Roman comedy
Lord Sovereign
The resident Britbong
The Prequels had heart, and George had a vision he stuck to. That makes them commendable in my eyes, regardless of how badly he buggered up the execution.
There's a reason most of the "what if the Prequels were good" videos and posts involve mostly tweaks here and there.
Skallagrim
Well-known member
What we know (or can deduce about) Lucas's sequel plans certainly implies that his sequels would probably have been a lot like that. There were great ideas, but also hints at Luvas-typical elements and tendencies that would've been received poorly.
But then again, if we consider that at the very outset, Disney did consider using Lucas's vision as an outline, with others editing and refining it... well, that could really have led to greatness. But they didn't have the patience, so they opted to rush it instead.
True. I'm way more inclined to imagine sweeping changes than some, but no matter what, I still keep coming back to the truth that Lucas's basic structure was just very good. The set-up of a secessionist war is solid, and Palpatine controlling both sides is a master-stroke. The basic structure of the narrative is solid. Even if I were inclined to change every other detail, I'd keep that underlying structure.
Mind you, I've read several pre-1999 "fan imaginings", and although some of them had really cool ideas, none of them had an overall plot structure that was as good as what Lucas came up with. The guy understands mythological narratives.